CV75 Posted January 21, 2017 Posted January 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said: I wholeheartedly reject your request for unchallenged common interpretation. Such approach would ensure that my mind remain in darkness. In addition, were I to be aware of such a scripture, it would have been revealed to me personally with the charge not to declare such unto the world. But I would do the next best thing, and ask provocative question to get people thinking about it. However, for your pondering pleasure: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:4 1
JLHPROF Posted January 21, 2017 Posted January 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: My original comment was no Temple work can or will be done after Judgement and Resurrection. I believe that there is a initial judgement where we are separated to Spirit Prison, to be taught the Gospel to our complete satisfaction, and to Paradise to rest from our labors for a while. Our final Judgement affirms what we have become in this life, and the next. IOW We choose where we will be. I personally believe that all temple work (baptisms, etc) will be performed during the Millennial period for EVERYONE. And that is why even after the judgment they will be able at some time in the endless eternities to come still accept of Christ's infinite atonement and the baptism that was performed for them and accept of the Father and the endowment that was given them. However, Christ specifically taught that this didn't apply to marriage as people will not be given in marriage in the resurrection. No marriage pre-resurrection, no Godhood or eternal increase.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 21, 2017 Posted January 21, 2017 It seems anything short of exaltation is being damned.
GrainofSalt Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 On 2017-01-19 at 5:16 PM, HappyJackWagon said: I get what you're saying. A huge selling point for the church is that families "can" be together forever. It sounds very comforting and wonderful. I hope people join knowing it "can" happen but that there is no guarantee that it "will" happen. I remember teaching a family on my mission I was sure would love the idea of eternal families. The father became very stern and said something to the effect of "are you telling me your religion believes God will separate families?" I hadn't thought of it that way. In fact I didn't think of it again for many years. But he had a point. The principle can either be viewed as God being gracious and loving enough to let some families remain together or it can be viewed as God separating families for eternity. Yes, the doctrine of eternal families can be a two-edged sword, especially if you are the only member in your family. It's so ironic when other members consider you weak in the faith for not singing hymn No. 300 with gusto. But I agree the doctrine is very powerful when applied positively.
Calm Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: That one is pretty simple. What are we willing to repent of? Meaning what exactly?
JLHPROF Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, GrainofSalt said: Yes, the doctrine of eternal families can be a two-edged sword, especially if you are the only member in your family. It's so ironic when other members consider you weak in the faith for not singing hymn No. 300 with gusto. But I agree the doctrine is very powerful when applied positively. When I think of this I just remember 1000 years to fix our mortal errors with the Savior directing our efforts personally. It won't rob people of their agency, but many families will be put back together and joined for eternity. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 11 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: It seems anything short of exaltation is being damned. Depends on how you view eternal progression. Damnation means to inflict loss. None are lost but the sons of perdition. We like to play with words and use the other kind of dam, as in stopped. Not actually what it means. Exaltation just means to become Gods. It doesn't mean those who don't become Gods are lost or stopped forever.
Mark Beesley Posted January 22, 2017 Author Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: It seems anything short of exaltation is being damned. And that is exactly what Heavenly Father wants us to think. So He conceals things that might lull people into not trying as hard in this life. Not my explanation, it is His. See D&C 19:7 Edited January 22, 2017 by Mark Beesley Poor Syntax 1
Glenn101 Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I personally believe that all temple work (baptisms, etc) will be performed during the Millennial period for EVERYONE. And that is why even after the judgment they will be able at some time in the endless eternities to come still accept of Christ's infinite atonement and the baptism that was performed for them and accept of the Father and the endowment that was given them. However, Christ specifically taught that this didn't apply to marriage as people will not be given in marriage in the resurrection. No marriage pre-resurrection, no Godhood or eternal increase. I do not have enough information to either agree or disagree with your first comment on your belief. The second comment does not seem to have much logical support in the scriptures for anyone sometime in the eons to come, accepting the infinite atonement. In the revelation concerning the different Kingdoms, and elsewhere in the scriptures, we are told that at the judgement seat every knee will bow (to Christ) and every tongue will confess to God before judgment is rendered. At some point in eternity all those who did not repent and accept the infinite Atonement when they had the opportunity will have to pay the price themselves. At that point, they would logically be free from sin and inherit the Kingdom they earned. I imagine all who have to pay their own price for unrepented of sins will be wishing that they had listened before it was too late. But I do not see that there would be anything left of the Atonement to accept. Glenn
Glenn101 Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said: And that is exactly what Heavenly Father wants us to think. But He conceals things that might lull people into not trying as hard in this life. Not my explanation, it is His. See D&C 19:7 I agree with that. God does not want us to become complacent, to take the Atonement or anything concerning our rewards either in this life or in the next for granted. He wants us all to "be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness." (D&C 58:27) Glenn
Mark Beesley Posted January 22, 2017 Author Posted January 22, 2017 6 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Saved just means resurrected, or not lost. I think it is dangerous to make this kind of argument. First of all, it imposes English meanings on translated words that may not correspond exactly to the ancient meanings. Second, it makes Christ's charge to believe in Him and be baptized meaningless. Resurrection is free. No need to believe or be baptized. Finally, if God wills that all men be saved, as stated by Paul to Timothy, and since resurrection was assured at the time Paul was writing, Paul must have meant something more than resurrection when using the Greek word sōzō. It has been my experience in the Church that lessons and sermons have always set forth the reqirements for salvation with Celestial glory. I have never received nor given a lesson or sermon telling believers what they need to do to attain unto a less-than-celestial glory. So, I always read the scriptures with that in mind, i.e. Whenever the scriptures talk about being saved, the author or speaker likely means a celestial salvation, or exaltation.
Mark Beesley Posted January 22, 2017 Author Posted January 22, 2017 On 1/19/2017 at 9:50 PM, cdowis said: Of course they will be able to see and converse with one another, but it will be a platonic relationship, without intimacy of the husband and wife bond. They will know each other but will be as acquaintances. There is absolutely zero support for this statement. In the resurrection everyone gets back a perfect body. There are not any parts missing. If God were to empty the love for spouse out of every non-celestial being, keep them from all types of marital intimacy, and do it in such a way so as to not leave everyone outside the Celestial Kingdom in an everlasting state of misery (cause it is not good for man to be alone), all the while not infringing on their agency, it would result in a god unlike any I would choose to worship. God is a god of love. Any sealed marital relationship cemented with love is a relationship God should seek to preserve so there is no decrease in the total amount of love existing in His kingdom. If God should kill the love between a terrestrially glorified husband and wife, then He would cease to be a God of love. The term sealed marital relationship is intentional on my part to foreclose (as much as possible) the issue of gay marriage mucking up the topic, and because by the end of the Millennium every marriage ever performed will be sealed, IMHO.
Mark Beesley Posted January 22, 2017 Author Posted January 22, 2017 7 hours ago, CV75 said: "Fools mock . . ." You know the rest.
Mark Beesley Posted January 22, 2017 Author Posted January 22, 2017 8 hours ago, bluebell said: I have no issues with your beliefs but to say that people who disagree with you need to "disabuse themselves" of theirs seems arrogant. Maybe I've misunderstood though. Your beliefs don't seem to be any more supportable than those that disagree. They all seem to be entirely based on personal opinion and semantics. Sorry you saw it as arrogance. In truth, it was a call to LDS -myself included- to shed some of their arrogance. I am glad to see that many of the responders do not hold to the belief that we, as exalted gods, go off and create our "own" worlds to populate. (I did not create this Mormon oddity. I had missionary companion who believe this. Heck, even I believed it for a time. I think that belief was common in yhe early days of the Church.) Iwonder how many of them have thought it through. If we, in fact, create and populate worlds together as a community, when our future spirit children in mortality pray to "Our Father in Heaven" who are they addressing? Is Christ our literal older brother, or is it by adoption? It is one of my favorite things about Mormonism. It creates so many more questions than it answers, and is a rich source for study, pondering, prayer and revelation.
SeekerB Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: It seems anything short of exaltation is being damned. No, only the sons of perdition are damned. All else receives a degree of glory. However, the possible loss of exaltation was apparently fearful enough that it caused a war in Heaven. 1
cdowis Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mark Beesley said: There is absolutely zero support for this statement. In the resurrection everyone gets back a perfect body. There are not any parts missing. 1 Cor 15, starting with verse 35. Just one of those pearls being trampled by swine sort of thing that we don't talk about. Edited January 22, 2017 by cdowis
bluebell Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 13 hours ago, Mark Beesley said: There is absolutely zero support for this statement. In the resurrection everyone gets back a perfect body. There are not any parts missing. Parts don't have to be missing. We know, because of scripture, that there are differences between resurrected bodies depending on which glory they receive. It could easily be that only resurrected bodies that receive a celestial glory are capable of procreation (this is completely speculation of course). Much like human bodies are only capable of procreation under specific conditions. 3
mrmarklin Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 16 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: It seems anything short of exaltation is being damned. This is essentially true.
JLHPROF Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 47 minutes ago, bluebell said: Parts don't have to be missing. We know, because of scripture, that there are differences between resurrected bodies depending on which glory they receive. It could easily be that only resurrected bodies that receive a celestial glory are capable of procreation (this is completely speculation of course). Much like human bodies are only capable of procreation under specific conditions. Adam and Eve were perfectly healthy as far as we know and prior to the fall they would not have been capable of procreation for some reason based on their own words. Not all barriers to procreation have to be physical. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 21 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I personally believe that all temple work (baptisms, etc) will be performed during the Millennial period for EVERYONE. And that is why even after the judgment they will be able at some time in the endless eternities to come still accept of Christ's infinite atonement and the baptism that was performed for them and accept of the Father and the endowment that was given them. However, Christ specifically taught that this didn't apply to marriage as people will not be given in marriage in the resurrection. No marriage pre-resurrection, no Godhood or eternal increase The Millennium is prior to the Judgement and Resurrection. The LDS are under commandment to do the Temple work for ourselves and our kindred dead in this life.
Ouagadougou Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 On 19.01.2017 at 1:03 PM, Mark Beesley said: Frankly, I think we as Latter-day Saints have been far too strict in coloring an eternal world in terms of exclusion rather than inclusion. I agree, but this is a result of a checklist mentality for salvation, IMO. In order to be saved at the highest level, you MUST (or must not in some cases) do the following; we've completely missed the mark as it relates to charity and grace. I, for example, drink tea, so, unfortunatley, I will not be able to make it to the celestial kingdom if I don't stop. Maybe that is a good thing, because I think I would be fine hanging out for eternity by myself playing golf in a lower kingdom. 😀 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 37 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: I agree, but this is a result of a checklist mentality for salvation, IMO. In order to be saved at the highest level, you MUST (or must not in some cases) do the following; we've completely missed the mark as it relates to charity and grace. I, for example, drink tea, so, unfortunatley, I will not be able to make it to the celestial kingdom if I don't stop. Maybe that is a good thing, because I think I would be fine hanging out for eternity by myself playing golf in a lower kingdom. 😀 It isn't because you drink tea. If you don't make it, it is because you are in rebellion against God.
CV75 Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, Mark Beesley said: "Fools mock . . ." You know the rest. I wasn't mocking. Now please provide the scriptural support for the continuation of the seeds outside of exaltation. Or, please provide the scripture that, by an unchallenged common interpretation, would otherwise support it. Edited January 22, 2017 by CV75
JLHPROF Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: The Millennium is prior to the Judgement and Resurrection. The LDS are under commandment to do the Temple work for ourselves and our kindred dead in this life. Yes. Temple work for everyone will be completed by the end of the Millennium. Some people will accept this work, others will not immediately. But if in the eternities to come (remembering that there is no end to eternity) they choose to accept, the work has already been completed. The validity of those baptisms performed prior to judgment doesn't expire with the resurrection. The ordinance on their behalf remains. 1
Thinking Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 I'm trying to imagine a lesser kingdom where a husband and wife and their children ended up after the judgement. They all see each other and move in each other's direction. Before they can greet each other, D.o.G. Security swoops in and separates them. Order is maintained. D.o.G. Security = Degrees of Glory Security 3
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