Lesser Kingdom Families?

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Then how could someone in a lesser Kingdom progress to the point where they will be with those in an upper Kingdom?

They cannot catch up.
But they can graduate.

Just as we in this earthly telestial kingdom by virtue of our progression can become celestial  beings.
So those at a terrestrial level can eventually become celestial.  Doesn't mean those who start of celestial will be sitting around when they get there.  They will likely have moved on to bigger and better things.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Then how could someone in a lesser Kingdom progress to the point where they will be with those in an upper Kingdom?

The same way the Atonement allows us to be with God.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

They cannot catch up.

Why not?

[thesometimesaint]

Just now, Calm said:

The same way the Atonement allows us to be with God.

Non-answer. 

[thesometimesaint]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

They cannot catch up.
But they can graduate.

Just as we in this earthly telestial kingdom by virtue of our progression can become celestial  beings.
So those at a terrestrial level can eventually become celestial.  Doesn't mean those who start of celestial will be sitting around when they get there.  They will likely have moved on to bigger and better things.

It is graduate to something that comes with you.  If Eternal Progress applies to all then those in lesser Kingdoms can never graduate to be with those in a Higher Kingdom. .

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why not?

 Because of the verse that states they can never go where God and Christ are worlds without end.
The false interpretation of that is that they can never become Celestial.

A better interpretation is that God and Christ may move beyond Celestial by the time they get there OR that the lesser kingdom they are in may become a separate Celestial kingdom from the one where God dwells.

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Non-answer. 

Well, if you can tell us the mechanics of how the Atonement can allow us to be one with God, I can likely point out that if God is capable of using those mechanics for sinners to be joined with his infinite perfection, he is capable of using them with those who are sinless, but not equal to his infinite perfection to allow them to also be one with Him.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Of course not.
But I don't buy the idea that "once in a particular Kingdom Temple work isn't done".

A truly infinite atonement goes forward and backwards.  Progression goes on eternally.
I don't believe at all that once Terrestrial always Terrestrial.

I think it is better to stick with how the scriptures use the phrase “infinite atonement,” rather than what we can imagine it might be:

From 2 Nephi 9:7, “infinite atonement” means to make this corruption (which is upon all men) put on incorruption. It means to end death with a never-ending immortality. 2 Nephi 25:16 expands on this theme, that the atonement is infinite for all mankind, and as Alma 34:12 puts it, sufficient for all the sins of the world.

The atonement was prepared from the foundation of the world (this planet: Moses 6:30 and Adam’s posterity: Moses 6:54-55) for all mankind (again, the mortal descendants of Adam, 1 Nephi 10:6). See Mosiah 4:6-7 (which puts an end to the same world); 15:19; and Ether 3;14. Latter-day revelation shows that the spirit world is part of this one, and will also have an end with the resurrection.

This tells me the infinite atonement is for the descendants of Adam to profit thereby before the end of the world, or the resurrection. I believe the Atonement is sufficient for all God's children to make of them a celestial spirit and thus obtain a quickening by the celestial glory (D&C 88:28-33). This transpires upon their exit from the spirit world, or the end of the world.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

 Because of the verse that states they can never go where God and Christ are worlds without end.
The false interpretation of that is that they can never become Celestial.

A better interpretation is that God and Christ may move beyond Celestial by the time they get there OR that the lesser kingdom they are in may become a separate Celestial kingdom from the one where God dwells.

I'm not sure i understand why one is a false interpretation and the other is a better interpretation?

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure i understand why one is a false interpretation and the other is a better interpretation?

Because one fits better with gospel principles in my opinion.  Other's opinion clearly differs.
Which one is in keeping with God's work?  Which one is in keeping with the principle of atonement and repentance?  Which one is in keeping with the idea of eternal progression?  Which one is in keeping with the idea that God's punishment is eternal in nature but not duration?

Again, just my opinion.

[Glenn101]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

A truly infinite atonement goes forward and backwards.

True. But it only "goes backwards" for those who accept it. Those who have the opportunity to accept it in this life need to do so, else they will be those of whom God was speaking in Doctrine and Covenants 19:15. The prophets have long advised us to accept the Gospel, repent, and have all of the ordinances performed for us that have been laid out in the plan of salvation.

God does love all of us and He has been begging us, cajoling us, pleading with us to get with His program, because there will come a time when no work can be performed (3 Nephi 27:33 and Alma 34:33) and we will have to live with the choices we have made, and if the Atonement has not been accepted, we will have to pay the price ourselves, a price Christ has already paid (Again D&C 19:15).

The "second chance" idea is not one I have ever heard taught nor is it anything I have ever gleaned from my scripture reading. Now, just who will be among those that had the proper opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel in this life is for God to judge, but I would not care to be the one that another person points to and accuses of "Glenn told me that if I didn't accept the Gospel in this life, I could have the work done for me and accept it after I died."

Alma indicates to me that those who do not accept the Gospel in this life almost surely will not after death. (Alma 34:34)

Those are not scare tactics. That is God telling us what will happen to us if we do not accept the atonement, or procrastinate doing the things that we need to do to take full advantage of it. He has given us prophets and apostles throughout the ages to teach us and guide us to that goal. He tells us that He has something really good, beyond all mortal comprehension, in store for us if we will keep His commandments. But we must do it His way and not try to forge our own path because there is only one path that leads to eternal life.

Everyone also has the same venue for finding out the truth. That does not come easily. But prayer is the method by which we ask and the Holy Ghost is the testator. God has given us no other way that I am aware of. When I say that it does not come easily, I remember the time that Enos in the Book of Mormon had before he received an answer. And finally, I will quote yet again from Alma 34:

26 But this is not all; ye must pour out your souls in your closets, and your secret places, and in your wilderness.

 27 Yea, and when you do not cry unto the Lord, let your hearts be full, drawn out in prayer unto him continually for your welfare, and also for the welfare of those who are around you.

That is my understanding up to this time.

Glenn

[SeekerB]

I think the Universe has rules specifying what constitutes Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial resurrections. These rules were agreed on eons ago by the Council of Gods. Heavenly Father is in agreement with them.  We no longer remember what they are because of the Veil, but were well aware of them in the Pre-existence. 

You can spend too much time trying to figure out things that can't be known until the Millennium.

Edited January 21, 2017 by SeekerB

[Mark Beesley]

On 1/19/2017 at 9:49 PM, JLHPROF said:

You are welcome to that belief.
The scripture says otherwise.

D&C 131:4 - No top degree of the Celestial, no increase (posterity).
D&C 132:17 - No Celestial eternal marriage, single for eternity.

Pretty straightforward.

Straightforward like "eternal punishment" and "everlasting punishment" prior to the revelation of a mystery of God in 1829?

No increase could mean any spirit childen born of non-celestial parents are adopted into a celestial family. Huh? Takes care of that "scriptural" objection.

Single and separate could mean separate from God and single meaning no practice of plural marriage in the lesser kingdoms. Takes care of that "scriptural" objection." Huh?

 

[Mark Beesley]

On 1/20/2017 at 7:56 AM, thesometimesaint said:

There can be no Temple work for those already judged, and assigned a Kingdom.

There is no scriptural support for this declaration.  Besides, no Kingdom assignments are made until the final judgment which does not occur until after the Millennium.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Mark Beesley
Grammar

[Mark Beesley]

 I find it rather interesting that many of the comments about progression from one kingdom to a higher kingdom come from those who reject the possibility of spiritual procreation in lower kingdoms.  The argument--whether or not people in lower kingdoms who progress to the highest kingdom could ever catch up with those who  originally inherit that kingdom--misapprehends the nature of eternal progression for those who have attained Godhood. My belif is that those who finally attain unto godhood progress eternally only in the number of their eternal posterity and created worlds/universes. Of course, one could argue that one "catches up" as it were as soon as they obtain godhood because they become joint heirs with Father in Heaven to everything that He has. And again, LDS need to disabuse themselves of the notion that single gods go off and do their own thing rather than working with others to create and populate these worlds and universes.

Anyway, some interesting things for me to wrap my brain around. And like Kevin said in the "skin" thread, we make it more difficult to become enlightened if we are unwilling to challenge common interpretations of scripture.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Mark Beesley

[thesometimesaint]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

Well, if you can tell us the mechanics of how the Atonement can allow us to be one with God, I can likely point out that if God is capable of using those mechanics for sinners to be joined with his infinite perfection, he is capable of using them with those who are sinless, but not equal to his infinite perfection to allow them to also be one with Him.

That one is pretty simple. What are we willing to repent of?

[thesometimesaint]

57 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

There is no scriptural support for this declaration.  Besides, no Kingdom assignments are made until the final judgment which does not occur until after the Millennium.

You just gave the theological justification for my statement.

[Mark Beesley]

6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

You just gave the theological justification for my statement.

I am not quite sure what you mean. I may have misunderstood your original comment.  I agree that there will be no more temple work done after the final judgment; however,  I also believe that no one will go before the Lord for their final judgment until the temple work has been completed for them.

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

 I find it rather interesting that many of the comments about progression from one kingdom to a higher kingdom come from those who reject the possibility of spiritual procreation in lower kingdoms.  The argument--whether or not people in lower kingdoms who progress to the highest kingdom could ever catch up with those who  originally inherit that kingdom--misapprehends the nature of eternal progression for those who have attained Godhood. My belif is that those who finally attain unto godhood progress eternally only in the number of their eternal posterity and created worlds/universes. Of course, one could argue that one "catches up" as it were as soon as they obtain godhood because they become joint heirs with Father in Heaven to everything that He has. And again, LDS need to disabuse themselves of the notion that single gods go off and do their own thing rather than working with others to create and populate these worlds and universes.

Anyway, some interesting things for me to wrap my brain around. And like Kevin said in the "skin" thread, we make it more difficult to become enlightened if we are unwilling to challenge common interpretations of scripture.

I have no issues with your beliefs but to say that people who disagree with you need to "disabuse themselves" of theirs seems arrogant.  Maybe I've misunderstood though.

Your beliefs don't seem to be any more supportable than those that disagree. They all seem to be entirely based on personal opinion and semantics. 

[CV75]

52 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

 I find it rather interesting that many of the comments about progression from one kingdom to a higher kingdom come from those who reject the possibility of spiritual procreation in lower kingdoms.  The argument--whether or not people in lower kingdoms who progress to the highest kingdom could ever catch up with those who  originally inherit that kingdom--misapprehends the nature of eternal progression for those who have attained Godhood. My belif is that those who finally attain unto godhood progress eternally only in the number of their eternal posterity and created worlds/universes. Of course, one could argue that one "catches up" as it were as soon as they obtain godhood because they become joint heirs with Father in Heaven to everything that He has. And again, LDS need to disabuse themselves of the notion that single gods go off and do their own thing rather than working with others to create and populate these worlds and universes.

Anyway, some interesting things for me to wrap my brain around. And like Kevin said in the "skin" thread, we make it more difficult to become enlightened if we are unwilling to challenge common interpretations of scripture.

Please provide the scriptural support for the continuation of the seeds outside of exaltation. Or, please provide the scripture that by an unchallenged common interpretation otherwise supports it.

I’ve never heard the idea that single heirs of the celestial kingdom go off and do their own thing (132:16-17). They serve as angels. The gods are the ones who have entered the new and everlasting covenant including marriage (verse 20).

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

Straightforward like "eternal punishment" and "everlasting punishment" prior to the revelation of a mystery of God in 1829?

No increase could mean any spirit childen born of non-celestial parents are adopted into a celestial family. Huh? Takes care of that "scriptural" objection.

Single and separate could mean separate from God and single meaning no practice of plural marriage in the lesser kingdoms. Takes care of that "scriptural" objection." Huh?

 

Well, as long as we are completely making stuff up.
Maybe God means a great big computer running simulations featuring humanoid animals.
Maybe family means any two people who really like each other.
Maybe Celestial means a place of pure energy.

Orson Pratt
There is a difference between the classes of angels called celestial,
terrestrial, and telestial. The celestial angels have not attained to all of the power and greatness and exaltation of kings and priests in the presence of God; they are blessed with glory, happiness, peace and joy; but they are not blessed with the privilege of increasing their posterity to all ages of eternity, neither have they thrones and kingdoms, but they are servants t...o those of the highest order. The angels of the terrestrial and telestial orders, while possessing a degree of happiness and glory, are lower than those of the celestial order. We might inquire, have angels not also these affections [90] which belong to the higher class of beings, inasmuch as they are resurrected beings? Yes, but herein they have lost, through disobedience, the privilege of attaining to the higher glory and exaltation. They have affections and desires that never can be gratified, and in this respect their glory is not full. (JD 13:187-188)

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

 I find it rather interesting that many of the comments about progression from one kingdom to a higher kingdom come from those who reject the possibility of spiritual procreation in lower kingdoms.  The argument--whether or not people in lower kingdoms who progress to the highest kingdom could ever catch up with those who  originally inherit that kingdom--misapprehends the nature of eternal progression for those who have attained Godhood. My belif is that those who finally attain unto godhood progress eternally only in the number of their eternal posterity and created worlds/universes.

D&C 130 tells us there are kingdoms higher than Celestial.  What makes you think God will be sitting around in the Celestial kingdom waiting for Terrestrial beings to get to the Celestial when scripture says they can never regain his presence?
They may eventually become Celestial but there is no reason to assume God will still be there waiting.  He will likewise continue to progress.
And your idea of Godhood progression sounds like pure hell.

John Taylor
What is man? A god, even the son of God, possessing noble aspirations, holy feelings, that may be governed by virtuous principles, possessing elevated ideas, wishing to realize everything that God has destined to submit to all his laws, to endure every kind of privation and affliction and suffering, as seeing Him that is invisible, looking for a city that hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God feeling to live for that purpose, and that alone.  This is what man is, if he lives the religion of heaven, and performs faithfully those things God has appointed him to do, that he may increase from intelligence to intelligence, and go on with that eternal progression, not only in this world, but in worlds without end. (JD 8:5)

 

Quote

 LDS need to disabuse themselves of the notion that single gods go off and do their own thing rather than working with others to create and populate these worlds and universes.

I don't know anyone who believes that.  I sure don't.  Scripture and prophetic teachings describe Godhood as kind of a giant United Order.
Councils of Gods directing their members to create worlds while under supervision of the council.
Not "doing their own thing" but managing their own stewardship and family, just as we do here.

Edited January 21, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Mark Beesley]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Please provide the scriptural support for the continuation of the seeds outside of exaltation. Or, please provide the scripture that by an unchallenged common interpretation otherwise supports it.

 

I’ve never heard the idea that single heirs of the celestial kingdom go off and do their own thing (132:16-17). They serve as angels. The gods are the ones who have entered the new and everlasting covenant including marriage (verse 20).

 

I wholeheartedly reject your request for unchallenged common interpretation.  Such approach would ensure that my mind remain in darkness. In addition, were I to be aware of such a scripture, it would have been revealed to me personally with the charge not to declare such unto the world.  But I would do the next best thing, and ask provocative question to get people thinking about it.

However, for your pondering pleasure:

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

1 Tim. 2:4

 

 

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

I wholeheartedly reject your request for unchallenged common interpretation.  Such approach would ensure that my mind remain in darkness. In addition, were I to be aware of such a scripture, it would have been revealed to me personally with the charge not to declare such unto the world.  But I would do the next best thing, and ask provocative question to get people thinking about it.

However, for your pondering pleasure:

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

1 Tim. 2:4

 

 

Saved just means resurrected, or not lost.  And none are lost but the Sons of Perdition.
Everyone else will be saved in some kingdom.  But that adds no backing to your non-scriptural claims.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, Mark Beesley said:

I am not quite sure what you mean. I may have misunderstood your original comment.  I agree that there will be no more temple work done after the final judgment; however,  I also believe that no one will go before the Lord for their final judgment until the temple work has been completed for them.

My original comment was no Temple work can or will be done after Judgement and Resurrection. I believe that there is a initial judgement where we are separated to Spirit Prison, to be taught the Gospel to our complete satisfaction, and to Paradise to rest from our labors for a while. Our final Judgement affirms what we have become in this life, and the next. IOW We choose where we will be.