Blogger on "The Alarming Truth Behind Anti-Mormonism"

[boblloyd91]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Go to yourself. Trust your inner compass. And if you believe in God, go to straight to Him, (of course I know you believe in God and this is a made up scenario).  

After saying this, I believe the church helps those that need structure and that structure enabling them to become closer to God/Jesus. I watched this video with Shawn McRaney, below, with an LDS man. He had at one time become disfellowshipped for some morality issues and he is also a returned missionary. He mentions that his main allegience is to God first, not the church. But he says the church allows him to be able to have that relationship with God. So I believe if any church helps that, great! But if you get it on your own, thats good too, since some members/non members don't have this same experience and feel worse in a religion. I really like how this guy thinks though. And he said he experienced a miracle that he believes was sent from God that got him back to church.

http://hotm.tv/episode-525-bartles-and-james-copy/

That's interesting....is this a more recent episode? I don't have time to watch it, but out of curiosity what Shawn think of him staying in the church?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

....................................................................................

a. Christian churches are not all that Christ-like in how they act towards those outside their faith and how they teach their members to treat others.  Dogma has become more important than Christ's call "As I have loved you, love one another."  When you loose that as a goal, you loose a large part of the reason to associate with organized religion.  Sometimes just deciding for yourself the message that Christ offered is better than trusting others to tell you what that message should be.  

b.  Christian churches used to care for the needy, orphans, and those less fortunate.  Now other organizations such as Open Hand, Habitat for Humanity, senior centers and thousands of amazing non profit organizations across the country that have no religious affiliations are doing that work.  For the most part, religion only plays lip service to the mission of caring for others.  Such a small fraction of the wealth of churches rarely goes to helping with the needs of those less fortunate. If you want to know what a church really values, see where they spend their money.

This is a very common claim among detractors of religion, intent on denying any humanity to religious people, making them out to be hypocrites.  In fact religious groups make prodigious efforts to help the needy (both in and outside of religious organizations).  Non-religious people tend to spend money on themselves in meaningless conspicuous consumption, demonstrating their selfishness and lack of love for others.  As Dustin points out, however, those who have left religion often have the culturally acceptable values of their former religion, but that only lasts for a generation, and their children abandon high moral and ethical principles without much of an afterthought.  The "me-generation."

2 hours ago, california boy said:

c.  Much of what is told in organized religion and the scriptures is just plain false.  Adam and Eve were not the first humans, there was no world wide flood, Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Mormon from gold plates, Abraham did not write with his own hand the scrolls found in the mummys.  American Indians are not from the Middle East.  If you can't trust what religion once taught as truth, how can you trust the rest of their version of who Christ was.

If your premises are false, as here, naturally your conclusions will be false.  What you say here, for example, is a non-response to the actual debate, and a major reason why some of your detractors wonder out loud whether you were ever a Mormon at all (you seem very poorly informed).  However, your comments do confirm much of what Dustin said in his essay about the general tendency of ex-Mormons to have lost any religious moorings.

2 hours ago, california boy said:

d.  Religion used to bring people together and provide a sense of the greater community.  Now religion builds walls between themselves and the community.  It has become an us vs them mentality for many in organized religion.  People have looked elsewhere and found a sense of community in other areas that are much more welcoming.

...................................................................................

One problem indicated by such negative stereotyping is the hate it conveys.  Next thing, we find that relgions are falsely depicted as trying to "force" everyone to comply with their demands -- as in this recent statement by you in another thread:

Quote

What other laws of God should the Mormon church force people to follow by working to make it the law of the country?  Should the church force people to pay tithing?  Should the church force people to attend sacrament meeting?  Should the church force people to not divorce?  Is that not a moral issue?  Should the church force people to not live together with out marriage?  Isn't that a moral issue?  Or is it only the gays that should be forced to comply with Mormon beliefs.  http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/68454-are-mormon-historians-rewriting-history-what-is-the-truth/?page=11#comment-1209684957 (Dec 31, 2016).

 

[bluebell]

57 minutes ago, california boy said:

I have thought carefully about how to answer your question without derailing yet another thread.  You certainly are informed enough after being on this discussion board long enough to know the major reasons why people are having a faith crisis in the Mormon church.  If you can't find any answers to your question there, I suggest you read the church essays concerning doctrines that were once believed to be couched in scripture and revelation that are now disavowed.

 

I wasn't asking about reasons that people leave. I'm asking for a reference to dogma that isn't supported by scripture or revelation.

 

[Tacenda]

57 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

That's interesting....is this a more recent episode? I don't have time to watch it, but out of curiosity what Shawn think of him staying in the church?

He thought the same thing, whatever leads you to Christ. And something else, my brother as you know is in a rehab. I was thinking today I think the church is good for people like this guy and for people like my brother. They both need some structure to reign in theirselves and stay on the straight and narrow. 

I know I make jabs at the church, but if I'm being honest I wish sometimes my inactive children would all be married in the temple and active members. It seems that that kind of lifestyle is a safe way to go as far as life in general, and their kids.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

This is a very common claim among detractors of religion, intent on denying any humanity to religious people, making them out to be hypocrites.  In fact religious groups make prodigious efforts to help the needy (both in and outside of religious organizations).  Non-religious people tend to spend money on themselves in meaningless conspicuous consumption, demonstrating their selfishness and lack of love for others.  As Dustin points out, however, those who have left religion often have the culturally acceptable values of their former religion, but that only lasts for a generation, and their children abandon high moral and ethical principles without much of an afterthought.  The "me-generation."

Those that believe that are not the ones leaving organized religion.  I think that is the point.  It is not without merit.  Project Openhand serves 17,500 meals every week and almost a million last year in San Francisco alone.  What church has come even close to that?  What percentage of the church's income goes towards humanitarian aid? i don't think you can make a generalization that their children abandon high moral and ethical principles.  Do you have anything to support such a claim?

Quote

If your premises are false, as here, naturally your conclusions will be false.  What you say here, for example, is a non-response to the actual debate, and a major reason why some of your detractors wonder out loud whether you were ever a Mormon at all (you seem very poorly informed).  However, your comments do confirm much of what Dustin said in his essay about the general tendency of ex-Mormons to have lost any religious moorings.

So as usual, you turn this into a personal attack.  Whatever.  My point was that many people are leaving organized religion because they have come to believe through actual scientific fact that the earth is not 6,000 years old.  Adam and Eve were not the first humans.  And their was no universal flood.  I have heard this statement from MANY who have left organized religion.  When you talk to someone who has left organized religion, what reasons are they giving you?  Really Robert, I would think much more of your answers if you would attack what I said rather than these personal attacks about what you think I do or do not believe.

 

Quote

One problem indicated by such negative stereotyping is the hate it conveys.  Next thing, we find that relgions are falsely depicted as trying to "force" everyone to comply with their demands -- as in this recent statement by you in another thread:

 

You don't think there is an us vs them mentality in religion?  Instead you want to bring up another entirely different topic from another thread?  Show me something that counters what I said. Have you never experienced an us vs them mentality within the church?  Have you ever experienced an us vs them outside the church by various groups?  What is it Robert?  Why do you feel compelled to respond to my posts but only with responses that attack me personally rather than what I actually said?  This is a discussion board designed to share different views and see different perspectives. Telling me I was never a Mormon is not only false, but really has no place in this discussion board.

Edited January 2, 2017 by california boy

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

Those that believe that are not the ones leaving organized religion.  I think that is the point.  It is not without merit.  What percentage of the church's income goes towards humanitarian aid? i don't think you can make a generalization that their children abandon high moral and ethical principles.  Do you have anything to support such a claim?

So as usual, you turn this into a personal attack.  Whatever.  My point was that many people are leaving organized religion because they have come to believe through actual scientific fact that the earth is not 6,000 years old.  Adam and Eve were not the first humans.  And their was no universal flood.  I have heard this statement from MANY who have left organized religion.  When you talk to someone who has left organized religion, what reasons are they giving you?  Really Robert, I would think much more of your answers if you would attack what I said rather than these personal attacks about what you think I do or do not believe.

You don't think there is an us vs them mentality in religion?  Instead you want to bring up another entirely different topic from another thread?  Show me something that counters what I said. Have you never experienced an us vs them mentality within the church?  Have you ever experienced an us vs them outside the church by various groups?  What is it Robert?  Why do you feel compelled to respond to my posts but only with responses that attack me personally rather than what I actually said?  This is a discussion board designed to share different views and see different perspectives. Telling me I was never a Mormon is not only false, but really has no place in this discussion board.

I cited your actual statements.  If you didn't really mean what you said, admit it.  If there are nuances not apparent at first blush, by all means clarify.

I do not find it particularly unusual for ex-Mormons to have left Mormonism for incoherent reasons or for blatant misunderstandings -- as seems apparent in your case.  Perhaps hate has blinded you so much that any reckless and inaccurate statement is now acceptable.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I cited your actual statements.  If you didn't really mean what you said, admit it.  If there are nuances not apparent at first blush, by all means clarify.

I do not find it particularly unusual for ex-Mormons to have left Mormonism for incoherent reasons or for blatant misunderstandings -- as seems apparent in your case.  Perhaps hate has blinded you so much that any reckless and inaccurate statement is now acceptable.

Yeah.  I am sure it is hate.  Thanks Robert for your kindness towards me.  I feel the love.

Edited January 3, 2017 by california boy

[california boy]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I wasn't asking about reasons that people leave. I'm asking for a reference to dogma that isn't supported by scripture or revelation.

 

And what I am saying is it is often that dogma that is causing them to leave.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Why people are leaving organized religion?

[bluebell]

Just now, california boy said:

And what I am saying is it is often that dogma that is causing them to leave.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Why people are leaving organized religion?

Yes, but you said it was specifically the dogma that can't be supported by either scripture or revelation. 

Can you give examples of the dogma in question?  If you want to say "this is why a lot of people leave" then be ready to provide examples of the "this".

[california boy]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Yes, but you said it was specifically the dogma that can't be supported by either scripture or revelation. 

Can you give examples of the dogma in question?  If you want to say "this is why a lot of people leave" then be ready to provide examples of the "this".

Ok. Let me give you a more direct answer.  As you know, there are people that are leaving the church because the church does not allow gay couples to marry in the temple.  They look at that dogma very similar to the time when the church did not allow blacks to be married in the temple.  There is no scriptural support for either position.  The BOM, D&C, POGP don't even mention homosexuality or barring blacks from being married in the temple.  There is no scripture in all the standard works including the Bible that directly forbids gays from marrying in the temple.   It is just a dogma that the church leaders have come up with.  It is no different than the JW's coming up with the idea that because the Bible says we can't drink blood, then we can't have blood transfusions.  That you can clearly understand.  But when it is dogma in your own church, there are all kinds of reasons why that dogma is somehow different.

Just to be clear, I am only willing to spell out what I mean by the statement that there is dogma in the church that can't be supported by either scripture or revelation.  I am completely unwilling to discuss whether the POF is a revelation or whether the church should even allow gay couples to marry.  I am unwilling to discuss your interpretation of scriptures that are in the Bible concerning homosexuality or whether having a dark skin is a curse from God.   If you can point to a verse in the scriptures that clearly disallow gay marriage or can point to a revelation declared by church leaders that specifically forbids gay marriage in the temple then I will respond.  If you want to talk about other reasons why gay marriage is not allowed in the temple then I will not respond.  

Sorry the disclaimer is longer than the post. lol.  But I have no intentions of derailing this thread on yet another thread on gay marriage.  And I want to make that perfectly clear.  

[Jeanne]

8 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

That certainly is an interesting article. I agree that for the most part, people who leave the church tend to become agnostic, sometimes atheist (this is just my experience though). Some I know became a generic nondenominational Christian, but that seems really rare. In fact, I would say most people I know who have lost faith take an eclectic view of faith, and keep the things they like (such as the idea of eternal families) and discard more conservative positions the church holds (homosexuality being a big one). Not to be political, but most folks I know who leave the church go leftward in their thinking and values.

I agree with a lot of this..but I do have to say from my own experience the past few years...though it is hard to hold on to God..he happens more than you think.  It is hard to separate what we know of God in the LDS church to the God of all of us..(if that even makes sense)..but God or no God...you would be surprised at some of the ex-mormons who hold on to great values and in sharing their love and service voluntarily.

Quote

 

 

[Jeanne]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Anti-Mormons may not be monolothic, but they do tend to feed off of one other, freely sharing and uncritically accepting the same talking points and out-of-context quotations.

But this is also true for the faithful in the church..they feed off each other and not apt to understand other points of view.

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

Ok. Let me give you a more direct answer.  As you know, there are people that are leaving the church because the church does not allow gay couples to marry in the temple.  They look at that dogma very similar to the time when the church did not allow blacks to be married in the temple.  There is no scriptural support for either position.  The BOM, D&C, POGP don't even mention homosexuality or barring blacks from being married in the temple.  There is no scripture in all the standard works including the Bible that directly forbids gays from marrying in the temple.   It is just a dogma that the church leaders have come up with.  It is no different than the JW's coming up with the idea that because the Bible says we can't drink blood, then we can't have blood transfusions.  That you can clearly understand.  But when it is dogma in your own church, there are all kinds of reasons why that dogma is somehow different.

Just to be clear, I am only willing to spell out what I mean by the statement that there is dogma in the church that can't be supported by either scripture or revelation.  I am completely unwilling to discuss whether the POF is a revelation or whether the church should even allow gay couples to marry.  I am unwilling to discuss your interpretation of scriptures that are in the Bible concerning homosexuality or whether having a dark skin is a curse from God.   If you can point to a verse in the scriptures that clearly disallow gay marriage or can point to a revelation declared by church leaders that specifically forbids gay marriage in the temple then I will respond.  If you want to talk about other reasons why gay marriage is not allowed in the temple then I will not respond.  

Sorry the disclaimer is longer than the post. lol.  But I have no intentions of derailing this thread on yet another thread on gay marriage.  And I want to make that perfectly clear.  

Your disclaimer makes no sense. Interpretation of scripture is a major part of all religions that have sacred texts.  

It seems weird to try to hold the LDS religion to a made up personal standard on what relying on scripture means. 

I'm guessing you made the disclaimer because your original statement was unsupportable without it.  

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

And what I am saying is it is often that dogma that is causing them to leave.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Why people are leaving organized religion?

Hardly anyone leaves a religion for dogmatic or doctrinal reasons.  It nearly always has to do with one's comfort level and feelings of acceptance.  People enter, leave, or stay in a religious group (or any other group for that matter) because they like the group and enjoy the personal associations.  This extends to those who feel inspired one way or the other.  That millennials are leaving organized religion is merely a sign of the times -- the Zeitgeist -- which can change in oscillatory fashion from one generation to the next.  It doesn't tell us anything deeper than that.

If you want to understand the mechanics of this, read Eric Hoffer, The True Believer.

[california boy]

58 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Your disclaimer makes no sense. Interpretation of scripture is a major part of all religions that have sacred texts.  

It seems weird to try to hold the LDS religion to a made up personal standard on what relying on scripture means. 

I'm guessing you made the disclaimer because your original statement was unsupportable without it.  

My original statement was directed toward all religion.  

Quote

Much of what is told in organized religion and the scriptures is just plain false.  Adam and Eve were not the first humans, there was no world wide flood, Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Mormon from gold plates, Abraham did not write with his own hand the scrolls found in the mummys.  American Indians are not from the Middle East.  If you can't trust what religion once taught as truth, how can you trust the rest of their version of who Christ was.

You made the statement

 

Quote

 

Bible only religions have the problems that you have stated.  But religions that are not bound by sola scriptura do not have to be able to validate their doctrine using only scripture.

But a lot of people who have issues with organized religion don't actually understand it all that well.

 

I was pointing out that even religions that don't rely solely on the Bible can not always validate dogma by other scriptures or modern revelation

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by california boy

[boblloyd91]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I agree with a lot of this..but I do have to say from my own experience the past few years...though it is hard to hold on to God..he happens more than you think.  It is hard to separate what we know of God in the LDS church to the God of all of us..(if that even makes sense)..but God or no God...you would be surprised at some of the ex-mormons who hold on to great values and in sharing their love and service voluntarily.

 

Just to clarify , I'm not knocking on liberal values, as I'm liberal in some ways. I was referring more to values in a culture war sense.

Edited January 3, 2017 by boblloyd91

[JAHS]

I'm getting this error message:

"The happiness-seekers.com page isn’t working"

I cleared cookies and history. Am I doing something wrong or did they decide to remove the article?

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

But this is also true for the faithful in the church..they feed off each other....

Well, we are actually to feed each other, so I would hope we were known for this as a faith community...though we probably could do a better job at sticking to the good stuff.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Calm

[JAHS]

9 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

That certainly is an interesting article. I agree that for the most part, people who leave the church tend to become agnostic, sometimes atheist (this is just my experience though). Some I know became a generic nondenominational Christian, but that seems really rare. In fact, I would say most people I know who have lost faith take an eclectic view of faith, and keep the things they like (such as the idea of eternal families) and discard more conservative positions the church holds (homosexuality being a big one). Not to be political, but most folks I know who leave the church go leftward in their thinking and values.

I have seen this happen too, but perhaps the ones who  turn agnostics or atheist are just more vocal about it. I know if I were to leave the church I can't imagine belonging to any other, because based on my studies and experience, if the Mormon Church is not the true one then none of the others are. However, I am pretty sure I would still believe in God and live my life according to the teachings of the Bible. 

[Tacenda]

59 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I'm getting this error message:

"The happiness-seekers.com page isn’t working"

I cleared cookies and history. Am I doing something wrong or did they decide to remove the article?

 

http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/response-to-the-alarming-truth-behind-anti-mormonism/ I just saw the same thing, while I was reading the link above, when I clicked on the bloggers link,  I saw the same message. I wonder if the blogger took it down.

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

Bible only religions have the problems that you have stated.  But religions that are not bound by sola scriptura do not have to be able to validate their doctrine using only scripture.

But a lot of people who have issues with organized religion don't actually understand it all that well.

The LDS Church has its own Canon that it relies on as much as those who,have the Bible only rely on the Bible.   LDS also believe in an open Canon though they rarely if ever add to it.  There is much debate as to whether manuals and other church publications constitute doctrine.  General conference talk?   Well maybe so long as they agree to Canon.  So the LDS church has its limits, checks, balances and dogma just as much as any other religion.   

Oh and if I understand it correctly Catholics are not bound by the Bible only as their popes can issue writings that are considered doctrinal.  

Then there are non Christian sects that have all sorts of ways for determining their doctrine.

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, rpn said:

I am wondering what posters here thought of this blog post (aside from the kind of puzzling title as it doesn't seem to easily fit, at least in who exmormons would describe themselves).

http://happiness-seekers.com/2017/01/02/the-alarming-truth-behind-anti-mormonism/

Was not able to get onto site- tried 2 computers- "too many re-directs"

[Buckeye]

19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Anti-Mormons may not be monolothic, but they do tend to feed off of one other, freely sharing and uncritically accepting the same talking points and out-of-context quotations.

So basically just like an LDS fast and testimony meeting. I'm not disagreeing; just pointing out that the average Mormon is just as uncritical as the average anti-Mormon. 

[Gray]

14 hours ago, Jeanne said:

But this is also true for the faithful in the church..they feed off each other and not apt to understand other points of view.

Yes, anyone dogmatically committed to a cause is liable to uncritically accept any claim that supports their views as true. In my experience, exmormons and Mormons are much more alike than they are different. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Gray

[rpn]

As of 10:33 Jan 3rd the link is no longer working.   Here is a screenshot (if it comes through, otherwise I don't know if the post has been withdrawn, or it is a computer glitch).

2017 'The Alarming Truth Behind Anti-Mormomism.pdf

Edited January 3, 2017 by rpn