mfbukowski Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 On 1/23/2017 at 11:14 AM, pogi said: Joseph B. Worthlin said, "First, I know as never before that there is a form of communication that transcends the power of words." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1975/10/the-language-of-the-spirit?lang=eng&_r=1 I am a second witness to Elder Worthlin's words. I don't know what better word I could use to describe my interaction with God than communication or communion. I have a deep and profound personal relationship with God based entirely on communication with him. Trying to convince me that God does not literally communicate with me would be like trying to convince me that my wife does not communicate with me. I actually find my communication with God to be much more effective than with my wife And as pleasant as my wife is, I find God's personality to be even more pleasing. Why you not believe that God has attributes? As a musician, I like your comparison and agree that spiritual impressions are very similar. The difference is that I don't take credit for any inspiration of any kind. I feels much more like communion with the divine than anything else. I forgot you were a musician. I think music can be a good analogy of how we organize the world as we know it from matter unorganized as little godlings. Imagine listening to a wonderful symphony. Where IS the "symphony"? Where does it exist and how does it "exist"? WHAT is the symphony? People take odd machines and make noises on them, putting out vibrations into the air, which produce in us the most amazing experiences of bliss, sorrow, visions of beauty and deeply emotional experiences all from scratching cat gut, banging on stretched strings and vibrating their lips on various devices which amplify and modulate the vibrations into various frequencies. We organize those noises into some of the most sublime experiences humans can have. All our senses and brains are, are devices for organizing reality as we know it from random frequencies of light and sound, and from this we organize language so we can share our consciousness imperfectly with others. So what is "reality"? These direct experiences with God cannot be communicated to others and do not come through our senses. They are about the only true "reality" there is. 2
pogi Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, Gray said: What makes you think God would be evil in my belief system? God doesn't have will or intention. God doesn't have the power to stop bad things from happening to good people, or the desire to inflict pain or misery. If I am part of God as part of the universe, and I do evil, then God does evil. If existence is God, then God is the source of all that exists - both good and evil. The lack of will or intention does remove any meaningful culpability for evil; but if you are going to swallow that pill, you have to accept that the opposite is also true - that God is not responsible for good in any meaningful way either. God, therefore, would not be worthy of my worship in any meaningful way. If existence itself is what makes something worthy of worship (and not will or intention), then a rock, a flower, a dog turd, a Mohammad, a Hitler, and a Jesus are all equally worthy of my worship - they are all God. I too find all of creation to be sacred, but only because of God's will and intention behind it. It was created FOR our good. That makes creation worthy of respect and awe, but I don't worship creation simply because it exists. Existence is neither good nor evil if there is no purpose, will or intention to it. It just is. 20 hours ago, Gray said: I think that existence is God. I don't think there are any literal celestial beings out there creating worlds or enforcing morality. All of that is metaphor. There is only one God, and God is the only thing that exists. I don't see any problems with this system at all (on the contrary, I see a lot of issues with both mainstream Christian theism and mainstream Mormon theism). But I'd be interested in hearing what problems you have identified. I guess the biggest problems I find are in reconciling this belief with Mormonism. It kind of destroys the plan of salvation as I understand it. A God without will or intention cannot "plan" anything and has no intentions for me one way or the other. God doesn't "want" me to be saved. God is apathetic. What does salvation even mean in pantheism? Saved from what exactly - absence of existence (God)? Is damnation the absence of existence? If God is existence, then that is the only logical conclusion, unless you conclude that God is hell. It does away with the demands of justice, the mercy of God, judgement, redemption, grace etc. It means that the profound love I feel from God is the result of an active imagination and wishful thinking. Lacking any will or intention, the universe doesn't "care" about me one way or the other. It means that God is silent. He does not talk, he does not listen, he does not care. It destroys communion. It destroys prayer as I know it. My experience with God in communion with Him, assures me that He does care, nothing can convince me otherwise. I know that as surely as I know anything. It is a more deep and profound reality for me than any tangible or visual experience. I have tasted of the fruit of God's love as Lehi and Nephi experienced. It is not imagined. God does love with real intention and will. Edited January 25, 2017 by pogi
Gray Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 46 minutes ago, pogi said: If I am part of God as part of the universe, and if I am evil, then God is partly evil. If existence is God, then God is the source of all that exists - both good and evil. The lack of will or intention does remove any meaningful culpability for evil; but if you are going to swallow that pill, you have to accept that the opposite is also true - that God is not responsible for good in any meaningful way either. It's true that God (existence) gives rise to both good and evil, but that doesn't make God evil. Remember, God is everything that exists. A particular person or planet is not the universe, just a small part of the whole. Take theology off the table. Is the universe evil? Does the existence of Hitler in the universe make the entire universe evil? No. The metaphorical creator in Genesis looked upon creation and called it good. I agree. 46 minutes ago, pogi said: God, therefore, would not be worthy of my worship in any meaningful way. That's completely subjective. All of us must define for ourselves what is worthy of worship. For me, nothing is more worthy of worship than existence itself, which is sacred. Some people look at the problem of evil and conclude that the traditional Christian notion of God is not worthy of worship. It's intensely personal. If the Mormon notion of God exists in any literal sense, by the way, He is a part of the whole, a part of God too. 46 minutes ago, pogi said: If existence itself is what makes something worthy of worship (and not will or intention), then a rock, a flower, a dog turd, a Mohammad, a Hitler, and a Jesus are all equally worthy of my worship - they are all God. But they're not God. A flower is not the universe. 46 minutes ago, pogi said: I too find all of creation to be sacred, but only because of God's will and intention behind it. It was created FOR our good. That makes creation worthy of respect and awe, but I don't worship creation simply because it exists. That is your choice, of course. 46 minutes ago, pogi said: I guess the biggest problems I find are in reconciling this belief with Mormonism. It kind of destroys the plan of salvation as I understand it. A God without will or intention cannot "plan" anything and has not intentions for me one way or the other. God doesn't "want" me to be saved. God is apathetic. Yes, it doesn't literally work with the plan of salvation. But every religion has its founding myths (sacred stories). Many Jewish people understand that the creation narrative in Genesis is a sacred story rife with symbolism, not some literal history of life. The same thing can work in Mormonism. What if the plan of salvation is really a story about choice and accountability, not a literal history of our pre-earth life? 46 minutes ago, pogi said: What does salvation even mean in pantheism? Saved from what exactly - absence of existence (God)? It does away with the demands of justice, the mercy of God, judgement, redemption, grace etc. Maybe salvation is more about being awake and aware. The quest to be more fully human. 46 minutes ago, pogi said: It means that the profound love I feel from God is the result of an active imagination and wishful thinking. Lacking any will or intention, the universe doesn't "care" about me one way or the other. It means that God is silent. He does not talk, he does not listen, he does not care. It destroys communion. It destroys prayer as I know it. I still pray. I don't think anyone is listening on the other end, but prayer is a way to gather your thoughts and build community. It's meditative. 46 minutes ago, pogi said: My experience with God in communion with Him, assures me that He does care, nothing can convince me otherwise. I know that as surely as I know anything. It is a more deep and profound reality for me than any tangible or visual experience. I have tasted of the fruit of God's love as Lehi and Nephi experienced. It is not imagined. God does love with real intention and will. I surely wouldn't want to convince you otherwise. If your model works for you, then great! You should stick with it. But your model does not work for me.
pogi Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gray said: It's true that God (existence) gives rise to both good and evil, but that doesn't make God evil. That is true, but you must accept that it equally does not make him good. If something is not good, is it really worthy of worship? I know this is personal as you suggest, but I can't worship such an apathetic universe void of intent and purpose. 1 hour ago, Gray said: I surely wouldn't want to convince you otherwise. If your model works for you, then great! You should stick with it. But your model does not work for me. The more I follow the light, the more I discover that there is purpose to it. I agree with you, stick with what works, with what inspires you to be a better person. But I would encourage you to practice meditation and prayer with open ears rather than an open mouth. As Christ said, "...let him hear"; and elsewhere it says "...see that the Lord is good". I strongly believe that if you make time to listen to God each day in your prayers with real intent...you will hear him. I know that I am not alone in this experience. God very clearly gives me direction, enough to fill 4 journals with, it is my privilege to listen and obey. I believe very strongly in the principle of obedience, but I see no reason to obey an apathetic God. What is there to obey exactly if God doesn't have a will to make known? To me the light of Christ does give credence to much of what you say about the universe, I just think a small twist in perspective could help you interact with God in more profound two-way relationship. But then again, God continually reminds me that my perspective could use a little tweaking too Edited January 25, 2017 by pogi
mfbukowski Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) On 1/24/2017 at 3:23 PM, Teancum said: Hi Mark I have been very busy. Don't know if you saw that I read the Faulconer paper. I actually understood a good part of it though I am not sure it is sinking in. I still need to read up on the other links you provided. Just letting you know. Incidentally I came upon this that might be helpful in your longer studies should you decide to pursue them https://bycommonconsent.com/2013/01/15/introducing-philosophy-of-religion/ AND I should have posted this- if I haven't- perhaps my favorite single article on William James and Mormonism- fantastic article! This is how I later discovered Mormonism - not through this article- but by my study of William James. I adopted his philosophy after doing grad work with a great James scholar as I mentioned earlier, and then discovered Mormonsim This Paulsen article defines it all. He precisely nails where James is coming from and largely where I am coming from as well. Paulsen of course was a renowned philosophy professor at BYU https://muse.jhu.edu/article/18126 Edited January 26, 2017 by mfbukowski
cdowis Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) Sigh. Evil is eternal, a law of nature as gravity except that it manifests itself in the behaviour of humans. God did not create it, and, like like gravity, cannot make it "non-existent". He controls it thu the law of consequences, and the law of justice. He can contain it within specific boundaries == in the presence of God, no unclean thing can reside. God allows evil because He Himself is bound by the laws of nature, of which evil is one of those laws. This is Mormonism, an based on latter day revelation, rather than the philosophies of man. The whole Plan of Salvation is designed around this issue -- mercy cannot rob justice, etc etc Edited January 26, 2017 by cdowis 1
Gray Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 18 hours ago, pogi said: That is true, but you must accept that it equally does not make him good. If something is not good, is it really worthy of worship? I know this is personal as you suggest, but I can't worship such an apathetic universe void of intent and purpose. Well, there is good and evil as we apply it to people, and it generally speaks to the way we behave. Hitler was evil, Mother Theresa was good. One definition of good is "morally righteous". So Existence as God doesn't fit that definition. But we often think of inanimate things as being good too. The earth is good. What do we mean by that? Probably something along these lines: "To be desired or approved of" "Useful, advantageous, or beneficial in effect:" " Appropriate to a particular purpose" "Giving pleasure; enjoyable or satisfying" "Benefit or advantage to someone or something:" 18 hours ago, pogi said: The more I follow the light, the more I discover that there is purpose to it. I agree with you, stick with what works, with what inspires you to be a better person. But I would encourage you to practice meditation and prayer with open ears rather than an open mouth. As Christ said, "...let him hear"; and elsewhere it says "...see that the Lord is good". I strongly believe that if you make time to listen to God each day in your prayers with real intent...you will hear him. I know that I am not alone in this experience. God very clearly gives me direction, enough to fill 4 journals with, it is my privilege to listen and obey. I believe very strongly in the principle of obedience, but I see no reason to obey an apathetic God. What is there to obey exactly if God doesn't have a will to make known? To me the light of Christ does give credence to much of what you say about the universe, I just think a small twist in perspective could help you interact with God in more profound two-way relationship. But then again, God continually reminds me that my perspective could use a little tweaking too As you might imagine, I started out with a viewpoint similar to yours. It stopped working for me, and so I had to consider other possibilities. But I'm always open to more light and knowledge Obedience is not intrinsically good. It's only instrumentally good - obeying the wrong orders will result in bad outcomes. But more than that, I think developing strong moral reasoning is much more important to our own growth than learning to simply do what we're told. Jesus the wisdom teacher gives us all the tools and principles we need to make good moral judgements on our own. Thanks for the thoughtful comments 1
mfbukowski Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, cdowis said: Sigh. Evil is eternal, a law of nature as gravity except that it manifests itself in the behaviour of humans. God did not create it, and, like like gravity, cannot make it "non-existent". He controls it thu the law of consequences, and the law of justice. He can contain it within specific boundaries == in the presence of God, no unclean thing can reside. God allows evil because He Himself is bound by the laws of nature, of which evil is one of those laws. This is Mormonism, an based on latter day revelation, rather than the philosophies of man. The whole Plan of Salvation is designed around this issue -- mercy cannot rob justice, etc etc Agree, just fyi it's is also a major theme in philosophy. Joseph's "proving by contraries" and "opposition in all things" is called "dialectical reasoning" in philosophy. It can also be seen as the basis for evolution. The Lord functions through directing dialectically opposing forces, white vs black as a great Universal chess master. Edited January 26, 2017 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 12 hours ago, cdowis said: Sigh. Evil is eternal, a law of nature as gravity except that it manifests itself in the behaviour of humans. God did not create it, and, like like gravity, cannot make it "non-existent". He controls it thu the law of consequences, and the law of justice. He can contain it within specific boundaries == in the presence of God, no unclean thing can reside. God allows evil because He Himself is bound by the laws of nature, of which evil is one of those laws. This is Mormonism, an based on latter day revelation, rather than the philosophies of man. The whole Plan of Salvation is designed around this issue -- mercy cannot rob justice, etc etc Agree, just fyi it's is also a major theme in philosophy. Joseph's "proving by contraries" and "opposition in all things" is called "dialectical reasoning" in philosophy. It can also be seen as the basis for evolution.
pogi Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Gray said: I think developing strong moral reasoning is much more important to our own growth than learning to simply do what we're told. When it comes to obedience to man that is true, but when it comes to God, I can't disagree more. Obedience to good (God) is intrinsically good and is the basis for all sound moral reason. Our moral judgement will forever be clouded until we learn the principle of complete submission and obedience. It is through these principles that the clouds gradually disperse and our perception is enlightened until we see as he sees - otherwise we will forever be a law unto ourselves. We too often fill our cups with the wisdom of men based on our best reasoning, which is really just faulty perceptions of "good" and "morality". Here is what meditation has taught me - in order to be filled, we must first be emptied. Meditation is the perfect tool for emptying our cups so that God can fill us up. Sound moral reason is ironically learned through the abandonment of all reason. It is experienced in what Buddhists call the "still small voice" - an interesting parallel. It is awareness! This awareness comes by entering the "void". If our bodies are a temple, the biblical heart is the holy of holies where we commune with God in perfect communion. It can only be entered through the "void", which to me represents complete humility and submission of will and reason - it is the laying down of our life so that God can lift us up; It is an eye single to God; it is thy will and not mine be done. It is the single most powerful and enlightening principle ever taught in scripture. This is where we enter pure awareness/revelation which cannot be uttered. We discover God in the here and now, where we are not distracted by worries of the future or regrets of the past. God can only be experienced in the present, but our minds are rarely in the present. Close your eyes and focus on your breath for 15 minutes, you will notice just how distracted your mind really is. Our moral reasoning is equally distracted by our clouded and distracted minds. Until we learn the principle of submission, we will forever be distracted from the TRUTH. Here is a good explanation of the void: https://practicalmeditationaudio.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/what-is-the-void/ Edited January 26, 2017 by pogi 1
mfbukowski Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 10 hours ago, pogi said: When it comes to obedience to man that is true, but when it comes to God, I can't disagree more. Obedience to good (God) is intrinsically good and is the basis for all sound moral reason. Our moral judgement will forever be clouded until we learn the principle of complete submission and obedience. It is through these principles that the clouds gradually disperse and our perception is enlightened until we see as he sees - otherwise we will forever be a law unto ourselves. We too often fill our cups with the wisdom of men based on our best reasoning, which is really just faulty perceptions of "good" and "morality". Here is what meditation has taught me - in order to be filled, we must first be emptied. Meditation is the perfect tool for emptying our cups so that God can fill us up. Sound moral reason is ironically learned through the abandonment of all reason. It is experienced in what Buddhists call the "still small voice" - an interesting parallel. It is awareness! This awareness comes by entering the "void". If our bodies are a temple, the biblical heart is the holy of holies where we commune with God in perfect communion. It can only be entered through the "void", which to me represents complete humility and submission of will and reason - it is the laying down of our life so that God can lift us up; It is an eye single to God; it is thy will and not mine be done. It is the single most powerful and enlightening principle ever taught in scripture. This is where we enter pure awareness/revelation which cannot be uttered. We discover God in the here and now, where we are not distracted by worries of the future or regrets of the past. God can only be experienced in the present, but our minds are rarely in the present. Close your eyes and focus on your breath for 15 minutes, you will notice just how distracted your mind really is. Our moral reasoning is equally distracted by our clouded and distracted minds. Until we learn the principle of submission, we will forever be distracted from the TRUTH. Here is a good explanation of the void: https://practicalmeditationaudio.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/what-is-the-void/ From the above link Quote But this languaged mind world we live in is not reality at all. It is simply what we have made out of reality. But as I said, because we spend most of our time in that parallel reality, we think it is the only reality there is. Gosh I have heard things like that before but I cannot quite place where....... 1
Gray Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 18 hours ago, pogi said: When it comes to obedience to man that is true, but when it comes to God, I can't disagree more. Obedience to good (God) is intrinsically good and is the basis for all sound moral reason. Our moral judgement will forever be clouded until we learn the principle of complete submission and obedience. We learn obedience as children. Continuing that on as adults will keep us in a state of arrested development. If we're really preparing to be gods, then we need to learn for ourselves to discern right from wrong, not just do what we're told. Any automaton can just do what it's told. We have a higher purpose. 18 hours ago, pogi said: It is through these principles that the clouds gradually disperse and our perception is enlightened until we see as he sees - otherwise we will forever be a law unto ourselves. We too often fill our cups with the wisdom of men based on our best reasoning, which is really just faulty perceptions of "good" and "morality". Here is what meditation has taught me - in order to be filled, we must first be emptied. Meditation is the perfect tool for emptying our cups so that God can fill us up. Sound moral reason is ironically learned through the abandonment of all reason. It is experienced in what Buddhists call the "still small voice" - an interesting parallel. It is awareness! This awareness comes by entering the "void". If our bodies are a temple, the biblical heart is the holy of holies where we commune with God in perfect communion. It can only be entered through the "void", which to me represents complete humility and submission of will and reason - it is the laying down of our life so that God can lift us up; It is an eye single to God; it is thy will and not mine be done. It is the single most powerful and enlightening principle ever taught in scripture. This is where we enter pure awareness/revelation which cannot be uttered. We discover God in the here and now, where we are not distracted by worries of the future or regrets of the past. God can only be experienced in the present, but our minds are rarely in the present. Close your eyes and focus on your breath for 15 minutes, you will notice just how distracted your mind really is. Our moral reasoning is equally distracted by our clouded and distracted minds. Until we learn the principle of submission, we will forever be distracted from the TRUTH. Here is a good explanation of the void: https://practicalmeditationaudio.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/what-is-the-void/ I'm with you about the value of meditation. I use it all the time. But it has to be paired with active cognition. Meditation can help bring you to a state where you'll make more compassionate and sound judgement. Then you'll be in a better place to apply the universal and broad principles of the gospel to specific matters. But that process isn't anything like "obedience". It's discovery. Obedience is doing what someone in authority tells you to do. That's social control, not spirituality. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gray said: We learn obedience as children. Continuing that on as adults will keep us in a state of arrested development. If we're really preparing to be gods, then we need to learn for ourselves to discern right from wrong, not just do what we're told. Any automaton can just do what it's told. We have a higher purpose. I'm with you about the value of meditation. I use it all the time. But it has to be paired with active cognition. Meditation can help bring you to a state where you'll make more compassionate and sound judgement. Then you'll be in a better place to apply the universal and broad principles of the gospel to specific matters. But that process isn't anything like "obedience". It's discovery. Obedience is doing what someone in authority tells you to do. That's social control, not spirituality. I think you misunderstand the value of obedience. Obedience is aligning yourself with laws which are greater than you are. We can take those to be the Ten Commandments or the Commandments even of General Authorities or the laws of nature. The Rishis of India acccept strict discipline in their lives. Even here we understand that fasting Brings discipline into our lives and brings us closer to the Lord. Eating right getting exercise and everything else we do to stay healthy is in essence obedience. Obedience is nothing more than accepting discipline. Even self-determination is creating one's own laws, but then following them is another issue. New Year's resolutions are in that category. The point is not making laws the point is following them. This post was dictated please excuse odd capitalization Etc. Edited January 27, 2017 by mfbukowski 1
pogi Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Gray said: We learn obedience as children. Continuing that on as adults will keep us in a state of arrested development. On the contrary, arrested development happens when you stop obeying God. It would be like telling your advanced calculus instructor that you are better off without following his instruction. That would be foolish! It is only through yielding to rudimentary principles of math that you can advance in more advanced principles. You must be compliant with the lower laws in order to advance to the higher laws. By disobeying true principles, you will no longer be guided into more light which is given line upon line, precept upon precept. If you are not obedient to one precept, you will not be given another. What good is learning good precepts if we are not obedient to them? Living according to the light that is shown to us to the best of our understanding IS obedience to God. It is the only way to progress in spirituality. You are more obedient, Gray, than you suggest; and I think this is largely a semantics thing. "For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have. Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:30). You are right, we do learn obedience as children, and we need to be reminded of that principle in our adulthood. Obeying our earthly fathers is simply practice for obeying our heavenly father. "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father" (Mosiah 3:19). 7 hours ago, Gray said: If we're really preparing to be gods, then we need to learn for ourselves to discern right from wrong, not just do what we're told. Any automaton can just do what it's told. We have a higher purpose. We do need to learn for ourselves to discern right from wrong. Once you have discerned right from wrong you are faced with a choice. You can choose to be obedient to the one or the other, there is no other option. You don't have a choice but to obey. The question is...whom will you obey? Who will you make your master? "...the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other" (2 Nephi 2:16). "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16). 7 hours ago, Gray said: I'm with you about the value of meditation. I use it all the time. But it has to be paired with active cognition. Meditation can help bring you to a state where you'll make more compassionate and sound judgement. Then you'll be in a better place to apply the universal and broad principles of the gospel to specific matters. But that process isn't anything like "obedience". It's discovery. Obedience is doing what someone in authority tells you to do. That's social control, not spirituality. Exactly! It is like discovery. What are you going to do with the light that you have discovered? Are you going to live by it (obedience), or discard it? What good is discovering new light if you don't apply it to your life through obedience to the light you discovered? You call it social control, I call it spiritual guidance. If it leads me to more light, more truth, more happiness, more peace, more good...you can call it whatever you'd like, so long as it works. Knowledge without application falls short of wisdom/progression, just like discernment without obedience falls short of righteousness/progression. Edited January 27, 2017 by pogi 1
mfbukowski Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 On 1/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, pogi said: On the contrary, arrested development happens when you stop obeying God. It would be like telling your advanced calculus instructor that you are better off without following his instruction. That would be foolish! It is only through yielding to rudimentary principles of math that you can advance in more advanced principles. You must be compliant with the lower laws in order to advance to the higher laws. By disobeying true principles, you will no longer be guided into more light which is given line upon line, precept upon precept. If you are not obedient to one precept, you will not be given another. What good is learning good precepts if we are not obedient to them? Living according to the light that is shown to us to the best of our understanding IS obedience to God. It is the only way to progress in spirituality. You are more obedient, Gray, than you suggest; and I think this is largely a semantics thing. "For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have. Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:30). You are right, we do learn obedience as children, and we need to be reminded of that principle in our adulthood. Obeying our earthly fathers is simply practice for obeying our heavenly father. "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father" (Mosiah 3:19). We do need to learn for ourselves to discern right from wrong. Once you have discerned right from wrong you are faced with a choice. You can choose to be obedient to the one or the other, there is no other option. You don't have a choice but to obey. The question is...whom will you obey? Who will you make your master? "...the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other" (2 Nephi 2:16). "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16). Exactly! It is like discovery. What are you going to do with the light that you have discovered? Are you going to live by it (obedience), or discard it? What good is discovering new light if you don't apply it to your life through obedience to the light you discovered? You call it social control, I call it spiritual guidance. If it leads me to more light, more truth, more happiness, more peace, more good...you can call it whatever you'd like, so long as it works. Knowledge without application falls short of wisdom/progression, just like discernment without obedience falls short of righteousness/progression. Again and again I see at the basis of this principles of living a disciplined life leads to health and happiness. Work itself follows the ideals of sacrifice and obedience- work is not fun by definition- it is a sacrifice we make in obedience to the laws of the universe if one wants to see it poetically. We sacrifice by perhaps getting a higher education and work hard at it in obedience to the principle that work organizes matter unorganized and allows us to create ourselves. So even the idea that we should not obey the prophets is still obedience to the principle of self- determination- that we create our own laws to obey. You just can't get away from the idea of sacrifice and obedience and work in creating a life for yourself. A farmer sacrifices to get seeds and land, sacrifices through work to plant and work the soil in obedience to natural laws. You work out and sacrifice in the gym in obedience to the natural law that this sacrifice will give you a toned and healthy body. Virtually everything we do follows the principles of sacrifice and obedience. On the other hand to can never plant and never reap, sit on the couch all day and beg for your supper. This is not a life of health, fulfillment, and happiness. 3
RevTestament Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Again and again I see at the basis of this principles of living a disciplined life leads to health and happiness. Work itself follows the ideals of sacrifice and obedience- work is not fun by definition- it is a sacrifice we make in obedience to the laws of the universe if one wants to see it poetically. We sacrifice by perhaps getting a higher education and work hard at it in obedience to the principle that work organizes matter unorganized and allows us to create ourselves. So even the idea that we should not obey the prophets is still obedience to the principle of self- determination- that we create our own laws to obey. You just can't get away from the idea of sacrifice and obedience and work in creating a life for yourself. A farmer sacrifices to get seeds and land, sacrifices through work to plant and work the soil in obedience to natural laws. You work out and sacrifice in the gym in obedience to the natural law that this sacrifice will give you a toned and healthy body. Virtually everything we do follows the principles of sacrifice and obedience. On the other hand to can never plant and never reap, sit on the couch all day and beg for your supper. This is not a life of health, fulfillment, and happiness. It's the duality of the temporal world that the Book of Mormon teaches about - the "opposition" in all things.
mfbukowski Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 34 minutes ago, RevTestament said: It's the duality of the temporal world that the Book of Mormon teaches about - the "opposition" in all things. When I first read about that in the BOM it was amazing to me that it was there. I had seen in in Taoism, in the Hegelian dialectic, in Plato, again and again in many forms in Eastern philosophy. My testimony is based on the spirit, but that was a real intellectual convincer to me. I have always marveled at the Didache which speaks of the "Way of Life" as opposed to the "Way of Death"- the former being based on following the commandments and essentially following natural law, and the latter in defying those same principles. You even see it in evolution as a theory- the organism either conforms itself ("obeys") the constraints placed on it by the environment, or dies. To live, it must adapt or die. Joseph also spoke about proving the truth by "contraries"- in a dialectic discussion, which essentially is the same principle as evolution. The word "meme" used to describe the survival of an idea, in the same way that a gene survives by being useful or dying, but has now come to mean the largely inane cartoons one finds on social media Quote meme mēm/ noun 1-an element of a culture or system of behavior that may be considered to be passed from one individual to another by nongenetic means, especially imitation. 2-a humorous image, video, piece of text, etc., that is copied (often with slight variations) and spread rapidly by Internet users. But to see this principle so clearly articulated in the Book of Mormon? This principle articulated by a young uneducated boy? (as I saw Joseph at the time)?? How was it possible?
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