Elder Benson Conference Talk/Report (1967)

[CV75]

41 minutes ago, Gray said:

What makes you think there is something dubious about the letter? I know of nothing to indicate that it isn't authentic. 

A .pdf of a photocopy with letterhead and signature would have been less dubious for obvious reasons (“The Council ok Tub Twelve”--Really???); more reasonably similar to the primary source document. Plus, it is dubious to use a personal letter to support charges of institutional opposition to the civil rights movement, framed in terms of racism, when no such claim is made in the letter and no such opposition was otherwise established in the first place.

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, CV75 said:

A .pdf of a photocopy with letterhead and signature would have been less dubious for obvious reasons (“The Council ok Tub Twelve”--Really???); more reasonably similar to the primary source document. Plus, it is dubious to use a personal letter to support charges of institutional opposition to the civil rights movement, framed in terms of racism, when no such claim is made in the letter and no such opposition was otherwise established in the first place.

 

You seem to be referring to this version:

https://archive.org/stream/DelbertStapleyLetter/delbert_stapley_Letter_djvu.txt

The original letter doesn't say "Council ok Tub Twelve" obviously. That's an artifact of software that tries to convert an image of text into actual text. 

 

 

https://archive.org/details/DelbertStapleyLetter

Edited November 30, 2016 by Gray

[mnn727]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

So...they were wrong and lead members astray by their policies/ideas/doctrine.

Who was led astray? Name one person that did not/will not reach heaven because of this?

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

 

I said you got it from an anti-Mormon source and you did (your cousin). Of course we also have it but you were not randomly reading conference talks pursuing the sanctity of your own soul.

And yes, idiot is fair assessment. You proved it by using the word 'problematic' in a non-ironic sense. A defining trait of idiocy.

My cousin is an active, devout member of the church who currently serves in the Elder's Quorum Presidency in his local ward. 

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I'm actually looking for sound support for your claims. I expect there are some out there (though I haven't found them) The three items you traipsed out like a turd collection, simply don't qualify. You've gotta have something better!

The letter is all fake and just a conspiracy?  Over 100 years of racist quotes/comments from church leaders isn't enough (because they were just speaking as men)?  You automatically think his letter is fake because it's too difficult for you to admit that an Apostle of the Lord had racist ideas/views.  

[Ouagadougou]

7 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Who was led astray? Name one person that did not/will not reach heaven because of this?

Any black person before 1978.  Meaning they couldn't have the priesthood or go to the temple.  Can you go to heaven without going to the temple?  Nope...not the highest level...

Edited November 30, 2016 by Ouagadougou

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Who was led astray? Name one person that did not/will not reach heaven because of this?

How would anyone know who isn't going to heaven?

[Ouagadougou]

43 minutes ago, Gray said:

You seem to be referring to this version:

https://archive.org/stream/DelbertStapleyLetter/delbert_stapley_Letter_djvu.txt

The original letter doesn't say "Council ok Tub Twelve" obviously. That's an artifact of software that tries to convert an image of text into actual text. 

 

 

https://archive.org/details/DelbertStapleyLetter

It's not some fake letter generated by some anti website; rather, it was was a personal letter written by an Apostle of the Lord. 

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

My cousin is an active, devout member of the church who currently serves in the Elder's Quorum Presidency in his local ward. 

So our devout orthodox Elder's Quorum 2nd Counselor thought of his wicked and depraved hellspawn cousin and thought a conference talk would help him back to the light of the gospel and sent this one?

To quote Miracle Max: "Your first story was better."

[Gray]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

 

I said you got it from an anti-Mormon source and you did (your cousin). Of course we also have it but you were not randomly reading conference talks pursuing the sanctity of your own soul.

And yes, idiot is fair assessment. You proved it by using the word 'problematic' in a non-ironic sense. A defining trait of idiocy.

Shouldn't we be over obsessing about the source by now? Unless you think the Elder Benson was misquoted, it's irrelevant. 

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Any black person before 1978.  Meaning they couldn't have the priesthood or go to the temple.  Can you go to heaven without going to the temple?  Nope...not the highest level...

And you can't go to heaven at all without being baptized. Yet many died without the opportunity. If only God had the foresight to come up with some way to give them that opportunity. Oh well. Hope hell is like a hot tub that really hurts at first but then you get used to it.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

Shouldn't we be over obsessing about the source by now? Unless you think the Elder Benson was misquoted, it's irrelevant. 

Nah, this is more fun.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

So...they were wrong and lead members astray by their policies/ideas/doctrine.

Whom did they lead astray?  Whose salvation was threatened?

[HappyJackWagon]

17 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Whom did they lead astray?  Whose salvation was threatened?

Seriously? Come on.

Everyone who was taught racist doctrines in an effort to defend the racist ban was led astray.

It doesn't matter that black people were discriminated against. It doesn't matter that as a church we rejected them in this life because we'll make it up to them in the next life. Just baptize everyone and do their ordinances once they're dead. Same difference, right? I find that mentality disgusting.

And frankly it's the same gross logic that says it doesn't matter if we refuse to allow children baptism, ordination etc until they're 18 which is why race and LGBT issues are often compared. We reject them now but we'll make it up to them later. No biggie.

The systematized racism and discrimination in the church, and the defense of such, has to stop. There is nothing holy or inspired about it.

[Kenngo1969]

Happy Jack Wagon,

Your indignation and umbrage are truly impressive, but you didn't answer my question.  And your non-response raises yet another one: Who's being rejected?  Indignation and umbrage do not an argument make.

Thanks,

-Ken

Edited November 30, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

So our devout orthodox Elder's Quorum 2nd Counselor thought of his wicked and depraved hellspawn cousin and thought a conference talk would help him back to the light of the gospel and sent this one?

To quote Miracle Max: "Your first story was better."

Actually, we discuss tons of church-related material on a weekly basis -- both good and bad.  We disagree and agree on certain topics, but he doesn't try to "bring me back to the light."  

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

And frankly it's the same gross logic that says it doesn't matter if we refuse to allow children baptism, ordination etc until they're 18 which is why race and LGBT issues are often compared. We reject them now but we'll make it up to them later. No biggie.

What happens if the current leaders are also mistaken with this recent "revelation" on children with gay parents?  If they had it wrong with regard to race and the priesthood, who is to say that this current "revelation" is not also a mistake?  Because, after all, prophets/apostles are faillable...

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

And you can't go to heaven at all without being baptized. Yet many died without the opportunity. If only God had the foresight to come up with some way to give them that opportunity. Oh well. Hope hell is like a hot tub that really hurts at first but then you get used to it.

But everybody will have the opportunity to accept/reject the gospel, right?  Black members were denied access to the temple and the priesthood simply for the color of their skin until 1978.  They could get baptized, but not obtain the highest level of the celestial kingdom.  

[Kenngo1969]

Elder Xavier Dean Hickenlooper of the Twentieth Quorum of the Seventy's views on race vis-a-vis the Priesthood and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are one thing; the official position of the Church of Jesus Christ itself is quite another.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Happy Jack Wagon,

Your indignation and umbrage are truly impressive, but you didn't answer my question.  And your non-response raises yet another one: Who's being rejected?  Indignation and umbrage do not an argument make.

Thanks,

-Ken

Where do you see that he did not answer your question? 

[mfbukowski]

On 11/29/2016 at 0:51 PM, stemelbow said:

I'm most unimpressed with the notion that the timing was inspired on the grounds explained above. 

The notion that God supported bigotry because the whites couldn't handle not being bigoted is just silly.  God surely loved your grandma much like he loved the Latino down the street.  He loved your grandma just as He loved the man born at the same time in Ouagadougou.  This amounts to thinking God actually thought, "Well I'll allow the other races to be downtrodden, I'll even allow one race be restricted from using my priesthood, because these white folks feel superior and I can't make them feel differently.  It'll be too hard for them". 

Nah....the church was wrong.  Society influenced the Church greatly and did so so much to make the members think there was a revelation supporting their bigotry. 

The problem with this is that the tacit assumption here is that there is a knowable and objective "right and wrong" which, kind of knowing you, I think is incompatible with your overall view of the world.

Of course society influenced the church.  Of course you are right now being influenced by the society in which you live.   It is inescapable. Racism is horrible but yes it was part of society at the time

I am sure God sees one or two little problems with our value system in this our wonderfully evolved, and perfectly moral culture of today as well.

These are what is known as "the blood and sins of this generation" and it applies to all generations.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

You seem to be referring to this version:

https://archive.org/stream/DelbertStapleyLetter/delbert_stapley_Letter_djvu.txt

The original letter doesn't say "Council ok Tub Twelve" obviously. That's an artifact of software that tries to convert an image of text into actual text.

Yes, while not the original letter it's a good enough copy for me. And it is dubious to use this, a personal letter, to support charges of institutional opposition to the civil rights movement framed in terms of racism, when no such claim is made in the letter and no such opposition was otherwise established by any other source provided in this thread.

[omni]

Could someone kindly show me where the teaching "the prophet will never lead the church astray" is in reference to our salvation?

I've seen or heard this quoted countless times in scripture, GC, and church and can't recall it ever having this qualification.     In fact, come to think of it, the only time I've seen it reference one's salvation is here on this board.

[omni]

Whether the Stapley letter is authentic or not (and I have seen no compelling evidence to believe it is not), can we all agree the Church was no champion of the civil rights movement, arguably the biggest moral issue of the time.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, omni said:

Could someone kindly show me where the teaching "the prophet will never lead the church astray" is in reference to our salvation?

I've seen or heard this quoted countless times in scripture, GC, and church and can't recall it ever having this qualification.     In fact, come to think of it, the only time I've seen it reference one's salvation is here on this board.

I might have been the one who started it so I will explain my reasoning:

“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” - Wilford Woodruff

In the last bit he explains what they could be led astray from. They will not be led wrong away from the prophets or from their duty to God. Fulfilling our duties to God is how we fulfill covenants and that is how we are saved. The promise President Woodruff gave does not promise perfect factual knowledge at all times. It tells us if you follow the prophet you will be led to do the things you need to do to achieve exaltation. That and a healthy dose of revelation I got that that is the promise. It is enough for me. I occasionally disagree with the Apostles in some particulars in their talks but their overarching message and direction I strive to sustain.