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Elder Benson Conference Talk/Report (1967)


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Posted
26 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

That is something that I never construed from the Priesthood ban, i.e. that I my skin color made me a superior person to anyone whose skin was a different color. It is something that I honestly never believed. May parents never taught me such. My life experiences never taught me such. And certainly not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When I read the Bible, I read that I and all would be judged by our faith and works while here in this mortal frame and time.

Were you actually taught that, or is it something that you "picked up on?"

 

Glenn

Basically an assumption after being taught that I was a valiant spirit and those who were not...were cursed with dark skin.  That...the priesthood ban..and the Book of Mormon pretty much summed that up for me.  I was a "Saturday's Warrior"...brought up during this time because I was so-o-o special!

Posted
4 hours ago, mnn727 said:

"No blessing will be withheld from anyone due to circumstances beyond their control"  -- also Ezra Taft Benson

Explain to me how somebody can still receive the blessings of the temple without going to the temple?  How can somebody receive the blessings of the priesthood without actually receiving the priesthood.  If blacks were not allowed both the priesthood and to visit the temple until 1978, critical blessings were withheld from them for so many years, regardless of it was outside of their control or not.  

Posted
8 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The justifications for these rejections by the average member is a big reason why many members are less comfortable attending church

Amen.  

Posted
7 hours ago, CV75 said:

I don’t think being taught racist doctrines by someone defending a racist ban constitutes being led astray.

Wow!  Really?  Unless you think God is racist or you personally feel certain racist ideologies are acceptable.  

Posted
51 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Basically an assumption after being taught that I was a valiant spirit and those who were not...were cursed with dark skin.  That...the priesthood ban..and the Book of Mormon pretty much summed that up for me.  I was a "Saturday's Warrior"...brought up during this time because I was so-o-o special!

An unscriptural conclusion. The usual justification for the ban was the Book of Abraham where pharoah was cursed in regards to the priesthood. Of course the racists ignored the rest of the blessing where he was promised the blessings of the earth and great wisdom. Hardly a reason for racism and definitely not a reason to keep them segregated. It is almost as if racists only selectively read the passage to see what they wanted to see.

Posted
25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

An unscriptural conclusion. The usual justification for the ban was the Book of Abraham where pharoah was cursed in regards to the priesthood. Of course the racists ignored the rest of the blessing where he was promised the blessings of the earth and great wisdom. Hardly a reason for racism and definitely not a reason to keep them segregated. It is almost as if racists only selectively read the passage to see what they wanted to see.

This may be true and well and fine..but this is not what you learn in primary or MIA...and grandma!!:P  Those fence sitters in the war in heaven...we knew who they were!

Posted
1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

Wow!  Really?  Unless you think God is racist or you personally feel certain racist ideologies are acceptable.  

It appears you didn't grasp what I posted (why didn't you include the whole quote?).

I think being so convincingly taught to hate people of another race and to break covenants in so doing that you actually do, constitutes being led astray. I don’t think the LDS leaders ever taught us to hate people of another race and to break commandments and covenants in so doing. Do you have any examples of that, especially during the Civil Rights time frame you're focusing on, say from 1950-70?

Posted

Without perusing the entire thread I can say that I not only lived through the era but lived near Berkeley CA (still do, actually) and attended several rallies in the sixties. 

 

It it didn't get much press, but all the protests and rallies I went to were openly run by commies.  This applies to Vietnam rallies as well as civil rights events. 

I know from personal experience that Elder Benson was correct in every specific. 

 

BTW what do you think of Public Accomadation now?  Ask some bakery owners in Oregon.

 

Posted
1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

This may be true and well and fine..but this is not what you learn in primary or MIA...and grandma!!:P  Those fence sitters in the war in heaven...we knew who they were!

I know. Mormon folklore has a life of its own. I had high hopes the internet would stomp it down a little but we seem to be entering more of a post-truth world and it seems that while good information is more readily available most would rather have static.

Posted
1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Without perusing the entire thread I can say that I not only lived through the era but lived near Berkeley CA (still do, actually) and attended several rallies in the sixties. 

 

It it didn't get much press, but all the protests and rallies I went to were openly run by commies.  This applies to Vietnam rallies as well as civil rights events. 

I know from personal experience that Elder Benson was correct in every specific. 

 

BTW what do you think of Public Accomadation now?  Ask some bakery owners in Oregon.

 

I am for it.

Posted
3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

This may be true and well and fine..but this is not what you learn in primary or MIA...and grandma!!:P  Those fence sitters in the war in heaven...we knew who they were!

I didn't learn fence sitters in Primary, Mia,or at home or Grandma's.  Instead I learned no fencesiiters, we all shouted for joy.

Not saying there weren't grandmas out there teaching that, but the use of "you" in your comment above implies that it was a universal experience when from what I have heard it wasn't even close to that.

Posted

Happy Jack Wagon,

Congratulations for exhibiting the truly impressive talent of piling condescension on top of all of the indignation and umbrage. Indignation and umbrage, by themselves, are impressive, but condescension on top of them makes for a truly impressive cocktail! I'm willing, for the most fleeting of nanoseconds, to account for the possibility, however remote, that the Lord might not see things exactly the way I see them, might not do things exactly the way I would do them, and that He might have a timetable and reasons for doing things that do not match my own.

Although I'm still single, and have been for quite some time now, on my mission, we used to teach people the importance of eternal marriage. We did our best to imbue a sense of urgency in investigators to earnestly seek and to pursue the goal of eternal marriage so that they wouldn't fall prey, e.g., to Satan leading them astray and fooling them into believing that that chastity before marriage and fidelity after marriage are unimportant. I'm sure that eternal marriage, chastity before marriage, and fidelity after marriage are important, BUT, for whatever reason, I simply have been unsuccessful in persuading anyone to engage (Hah-hah!) in a mutual pursuit of these goals with me. BUT we teach nothing will be lost that for those who do not have the opportunity of forming an eternal union in this life. We suppose that people having the opportunity to form such unions in the next life is just as good as forming them in this life. I don't have whiplash. Can't help you there.

Posted
1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

Denying an entire group of people equality (the priesthood and access to the temple) because of the color of their skin is racist and a from of hate, IMO.   

REALLY? There's a shocker. I thought you were going to come down in favor of racism but you surprised us all. Well done sir!

Posted
21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

REALLY? There's a shocker. I thought you were going to come down in favor of racism but you surprised us all. Well done sir!

So I take it you agree the church was wrong with it's racist doctrine until 1978...

Posted
11 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Denying an entire group of people equality (the priesthood and access to the temple) because of the color of their skin is racist and a from of hate, IMO.  

***

What I asked for was examples of prophets leading the people astray (in line with the focus of this thread, in the context of racism, with an emphasis on the issue of American Civil Rights). To be led astray means to break covenants and apostatize. The criteria I am using for this discussion are: to be led (directed and encouraged) to hate people of another race; to break the covenants in expressing this hate; and, actually following through with it.

These are not examples of prophets leading, or their followers being led, astray in this matter. I’m sure you are familiar with this as well:

“Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.” https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

As offended as anyone may wish to be over things past, there simply is nothing to show that the LDS Church led her members astray, and that is what I am talking about. It appears that Elder Stapley didn’t do it either!

10 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

So I take it you agree the church was wrong with it's racist doctrine until 1978...

As a Church, she would only be wrong if she led people astray (as I pointed out above), and she didn't.

Posted

Here's another one of my world-famous analogies, for which I almost always get a lot of flak for:

Let's suppose I used to be an alcoholic. I haven't had a drink since, oh, let's say 1978. Before then, I said a lot of stupid things. I offended some people with my drunken explanations of my behavior. Many people hated me for my behavior. But in 1978, I saw the light. I've been stone cold sober ever since. Is it right for people to keep hating on me for something I stopped doing almost 40 years ago, and which I never do any more?

This is how I see this thread going. The Church has admitted, over the pulpit, that it was wrong in its thinking about the ban. Since then it has made strides in becoming more open and welcoming. But some people just can't get over those feelings that got hurt 40 years ago and move on. They still hold that against us, because God's true church would never ever do anything wrong. Tell that to Peter, who took a sword to a Passover seder and lopped off a guy's ear (in front of Jesus, no less.)

Posted
1 hour ago, CV75 said:

What I asked for was examples of prophets leading the people astray (in line with the focus of this thread, in the context of racism, with an emphasis on the issue of American Civil Rights). To be led astray means to break covenants and apostatize. The criteria I am using for this discussion are: to be led (directed and encouraged) to hate people of another race; to break the covenants in expressing this hate; and, actually following through with it.

 

These are not examples of prophets leading, or their followers being led, astray in this matter. I’m sure you are familiar with this as well:

 

“Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.” https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

 

As offended as anyone may wish to be over things past, there simply is nothing to show that the LDS Church led her members astray, and that is what I am talking about. It appears that Elder Stapley didn’t do it either!

 

 

As a Church, she would only be wrong if she led people astray (as I pointed out above), and she didn't.

I provided copious amounts of quotes/sources and official statements from the church during this time period illustrating their racist policy/doctrine toward blacks.

Withholding the priesthood and access to the temple is, in fact, an actionable expression of discrimination/hate toward an entire group of people based solely on the color of their skin.  Telling members to  abstain from allowing blacks to enjoy certain gospel-essential ordinances and/or processes (temple and priesthood) is leading them astray, especially since the church admitted that they were wrong.  

Since your congestive dissonance isn't allowing you to understand this, look at it this way:

If the church admitted its doctrine/policy/theories were wrong, then that means what they told members for so many years was wrong.  And, what they told members was an actionable expression to NOT give blacks the priesthood and allow them to attend the temple.  If God was actually ok with blacks receiving both (for some many years until 1978) -- both the church and its leaders were wrong -- and this means that leaders lead people astray.  

 

 

Posted
22 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

Here's another one of my world-famous analogies, for which I almost always get a lot of flak for:

Let's suppose I used to be an alcoholic. I haven't had a drink since, oh, let's say 1978. Before then, I said a lot of stupid things. I offended some people with my drunken explanations of my behavior. Many people hated me for my behavior. But in 1978, I saw the light. I've been stone cold sober ever since. Is it right for people to keep hating on me for something I stopped doing almost 40 years ago, and which I never do any more?

This is how I see this thread going. The Church has admitted, over the pulpit, that it was wrong in its thinking about the ban. Since then it has made strides in becoming more open and welcoming. But some people just can't get over those feelings that got hurt 40 years ago and move on. They still hold that against us, because God's true church would never ever do anything wrong. Tell that to Peter, who took a sword to a Passover seder and lopped off a guy's ear (in front of Jesus, no less.)

What about this talk from 2000?

"How grateful I am that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has from its beginnings stood strongly against racism in any of its malignant manifestations."

Statements like this are misleading and couldn't be further from the truth.  Because the church finally "saw the light" in 1978.  Clearly even some in the 70 don't know the true history of the church with regard to how it treated and discriminated toward blacks.  

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/09/no-more-strangers?lang=eng

Posted
36 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

Here's another one of my world-famous analogies, for which I almost always get a lot of flak for:

Let's suppose I used to be an alcoholic. I haven't had a drink since, oh, let's say 1978. Before then, I said a lot of stupid things. I offended some people with my drunken explanations of my behavior. Many people hated me for my behavior. But in 1978, I saw the light. I've been stone cold sober ever since. Is it right for people to keep hating on me for something I stopped doing almost 40 years ago, and which I never do any more?

This is how I see this thread going. The Church has admitted, over the pulpit, that it was wrong in its thinking about the ban. Since then it has made strides in becoming more open and welcoming. But some people just can't get over those feelings that got hurt 40 years ago and move on. They still hold that against us, because God's true church would never ever do anything wrong. Tell that to Peter, who took a sword to a Passover seder and lopped off a guy's ear (in front of Jesus, no less.)

But what if you stopped drinking and saying hateful things in 1978 after you became sober, BUT you also continued to justify your reasons for being an alcoholic  and the things you had said? Would people be more justified in being upset with you? The racial discrimination of the ban ended in 1978 but the racial discrimination in the doctrine justifying the ban did NOT end in 1978.

Keep in mind, the disavowal of the "theories" which were really "doctrines" only came recently in the Race and the Priesthood essay. When has the church admitted over the pulpit that the previous doctrines about the ban were incorrect? I haven't seen that. Is there a conference address? If there is I'd love to see it but my understanding is that they disavowed in the essay that many members still aren't aware of.

Posted
11 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

So I take it you agree the church was wrong with it's racist doctrine until 1978...

I have no idea. While Inam under command not to be racist God has used his racial divisions in the past for various reasons. If God set it up then He knows best. If not, then someone screwed up and will answer for it.

Posted
12 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Happy Jack Wagon,

Congratulations for exhibiting the truly impressive talent of piling condescension on top of all of the indignation and umbrage. Indignation and umbrage, by themselves, are impressive, but condescension on top of them makes for a truly impressive cocktail! I'm willing, for the most fleeting of nanoseconds, to account for the possibility, however remote, that the Lord might not see things exactly the way I see them, might not do things exactly the way I would do them, and that He might have a timetable and reasons for doing things that do not match my own.

 

You seem really upset with me. I don't think I've made any personal attacks against you but I'm sorry if I came off too strong. I truly find it hard to believe that you are unaware of the very basic answers to the questions you asked. Then you made a blatantly false statement that I hadn't answered your questions and you surmised it was because I wasn't able to. So I restated my answers so you wouldn't be confused.

I'm also surprised that you can only consider for a fleeting nanosecond that the Lord doesn't see or do things exactly the same way you would and that his time table may not be the same as yours. A nanosecond? You seem to be very confident that your will and actions and timetable are perfectly aligned with God's. I admit that I am not that certain regarding my own.

 

Posted
23 hours ago, CV75 said:

I don’t think being taught racist doctrines by someone defending a racist ban constitutes being led astray. I think being so convincingly taught to hate people of another race and to break covenants in so doing, that you actually do, does. I don’t think the LDS leaders taught us to hate people of another race and to break covenants in so doing.

What really matters is doing your best with what you have to work with. That is how grace works.

“This life” includes the post-mortal spirit world, so no one is rejected. This is how 2 Nephi 26:33 is fulfilled, and why it can only be accomplished through a Savior and how no one’s salvation is ever threatened by forces outside the individual’s control: “[Jesus Christ] inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.”

I disagree...strongly. Surprise! :)

You have suggested your own definition of what it means to "lead people astray" and I can see where you're coming from with that, but in no way is if a definitive definition.

Racism isn't limited to teaching people to hate other people. I agree that leaders didn't teach us to "hate" blacks but there are many ways in which racism is manifest. Systematized discrimination is one such way. The church and its leaders definitely did that and justified it with "doctrines" which it now disavows.

Presumption that things will be made right in the next world is no justification for terrible things being done in this life.

 

Posted
36 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I provided copious amounts of quotes/sources and official statements from the church during this time period illustrating their racist policy/doctrine toward blacks.

Withholding the priesthood and access to the temple is, in fact, an actionable expression of discrimination/hate toward an entire group of people based solely on the color of their skin.  Telling members to  abstain from allowing blacks to enjoy certain gospel-essential ordinances and/or processes (temple and priesthood) is leading them astray, especially since the church admitted that they were wrong.  

Since your congestive dissonance isn't allowing you to understand this, look at it this way:

If the church admitted its doctrine/policy/theories were wrong, then that means what they told members for so many years was wrong.  And, what they told members was an actionable expression to NOT give blacks the priesthood and allow them to attend the temple.  If God was actually ok with blacks receiving both (for some many years until 1978) -- both the church and its leaders were wrong -- and this means that leaders lead people astray. 

Your references have nothing to do with the Church leading the saints astray. You seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance. There are many ways to perceive “wrong” just as there are many ways to perceive “right,” but the bottom line you don’t seem to be facing is that nowhere are the saints told to break any of the restored covenants to express hatred toward any race. It seems you are missing that from your read of the references, Mr. Cognitive Dissonance!

Posted
33 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

What about this talk from 2000?

"How grateful I am that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has from its beginnings stood strongly against racism in any of its malignant manifestations."

Statements like this are misleading and couldn't be further from the truth.  Because the church finally "saw the light" in 1978.  Clearly even some in the 70 don't know the true history of the church with regard to how it treated and discriminated toward blacks.  

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/09/no-more-strangers?lang=eng

On the contrary, in many ways that statement is true (note the adverb and adjective), especially in context of the whole talk.

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