LDS Religious Exemptions from Vaccination

[pogi]

In 1978 the first presidency issued a statement in support of vaccination:

Quote

 

We urge members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to protect their own children through immunization. Then they may wish to join other public-spirited citizens in efforts to eradicate ignorance and apathy that have caused the disturbingly low levels of childhood immunization.

Failure to act could subject untold thousands to preventable lifelong physical or mental impairment, including paralysis, blindness, deafness, heart damage and mental retardation.

Immunization campaigns in the United States and other nations, if successful, will end much needless suffering and erase the potential threat of epidemics. Such efforts are deserving of our full support.

 

Later in 1985 the church published a reminder to get their children vaccinated, calling it an "obligation":

Quote

Today, with the use of immunizations, these diseases are becoming more and more uncommon. In fact, they are so uncommon that many parents have become lax about immunizing their children. Some feel that there is no need; others fear adverse side effects. But parents have an obligation to protect their families through immunization.

Every state has laws mandating vaccination.  3 states allow for medical exemptions only.  As few as 18 states allow for personal or philosophical exemptions, and the rest allow for religious exemptions.  That means that for the vast majority of states, if you have serious concerns about vaccination your only options for exemption are medical (which are impossible to obtain without a medical contraindication to vaccination) and the only other option is a religious exemption.  

Utah does allow for philosophical exemption, but under Utah code a religious exemption requires:

(c) a statement that the person is a bona fide member of a specified, recognized religious organization whose teachings are contrary to immunizations, signed by one of the following persons:

(i) one of the student's parents;

(ii) the student's guardian;

(iii) a legal age brother or sister of a student who has no parent or guardian; or

(iv) the student, if of legal age.

If other states requirements are similar, could a person justifiably use personal interpretation of scripture on agency or health, spiritual impression/personal revelation, etc. to justify a religious exemption? 

[ERMD]

I don't see where the teachings of the Church could be used to justify not immunizing.

[strappinglad]

Those who ignore/forget history are doomed to relive it. ( Or something like that ). Witness the death brought to the Americas by the first Europeans. Witness the loss of life and misery from mumps and measles and whooping cough. We are quite far removed from epidemics in North America and we get all a flutter when 3 cases of Ebola show up. Try to imagine millions dying within a few months ..In my opinion , no LDS person has any  religious justification for not vaccinating children unless there is good evidence of severe allergic reactions. Even then there maybe be alternatives.

[bluebell]

My friend's sister does not vaccinate and they use a religious exemption to get out of it. They are active LDS. 

My friend has told her sister it's not honest to claim it's against her religion but it hasn't stopped them.  

[strappinglad]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My friend's sister does not vaccinate and they use a religious exemption to get out of it. They are active LDS. 

My friend has told her sister it's not honest to claim it's against her religion but it hasn't stopped them.  

I am curious who would even check with a religion to see if the official position is for or against.

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I am curious who would even check with a religion to see if the official position is for or against.

I've never heard of anyone checking, which is why the whole religious exemption thing is kind of a joke.

[waveslider]

I always pray about it first, and study what the ingredients of any particular vaccination will have in it, before deciding: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf With the internet there is no reason to not be informed.

It is really hard to figure out why there are mercury and aborted fetuses, and other questionable ingredients in many of them, and what these ingredients actually do to help. That said I have vaccinated my kids what was required for them to go to school, but never vaccinated them with the extras, like flu shots, etc.. My son recently was vaccinated with shots for his mission in the Philippines, and even though some of those had questionable ingredients, we knew it was necessary for Heavenly Father's purposes, since he wouldn't be allow to enter the Philippines, on his mission, without taking them. We relied upon the promises in scripture like this; "....if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:18) although I know the shots don't exactly count as drinking, I do feel that the deadly things like mercury won't hurt him and keep him from being able to fulfill his mission, and if it did, I have full confidence in the miracle of priesthood healings.

From what I remember in the 80's and earlier, there were a lot less vaccinations then there are today. I wonder what the church would have to say about taking them now days if they made another statement about them. I do think some are worth taking, while others like the HPV for cervical is not warranted since the chances of most kids getting that are so slim in the first place, that the risks of side effects have a higher probability of happening to them.

I have personally seen problems with the flu shots, as it almost always seems to be the people that receive those shots who are the ones who end up getting the flu every year. I have only had the flu once since I decided to never take the flu vaccinations, as well as not having my kids take them, 12 years ago. That's when I found out that there is mercury in some of them. My son had the flu once too, but on an earlier year than mine. my daughter never had it since the decision to not have them. I have since learned a bit about colloidal silver and I make my own (no, I, nor my kids haven't even come close to turning blue, because I make it and use it correctly). I didn't use it for my son's bout with the flu, because I hadn't yet studied enough on homeopathic remedies, so he had to suffer with it for almost a week. The strain I ended up with, was particularly bad that year. Everyone seemed to get that one and it always lasted for two whole weeks, and was particularly bad. I got it and started drinking one ounce doses of Colloidal Silver, every six hours, as soon as I noticed the first signs of getting it. By the next morning I didn't have it anymore. Gone before it got miserable.

I think vaccination is something that we should prayerfully decide to do, and I in no way blame anyone for not taking them because there is obviously some shenanigans going on to help make the big pharma companies extra money. With a conflict in interest like that, I find it hard to just blindly trust. It is really hard to know which are helping and which are there just to sell more drugs.
 

[The Nehor]

I wish we could also unvaccinate idiots who refuse to vaccinate their children and then give said parents polio. Then we could make a reality show about how stupid they are and watch them suffer and/or die.

Putting your children and other children who for health reasons cannot be vaccinated at risk because you read a stupid article on the internet is cruelty. I have always found it ironic that those who most rail against the 'nanny state' seem blind and determined to prove they are incapable of making good decisions and need a nanny state to keep them from killing themselves and their families.

[The Nehor]

48 minutes ago, waveslider said:

I always pray about it first, and study what the ingredients of any particular vaccination will have in it, before deciding: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf With the internet there is no reason to not be informed.

It is really hard to figure out why there are mercury and aborted fetuses, and other questionable ingredients in many of them, and what these ingredients actually do to help. That said I have vaccinated my kids what was required for them to go to school, but never vaccinated them with the extras, like flu shots, etc.. My son recently was vaccinated with shots for his mission in the Philippines, and even though some of those had questionable ingredients, we knew it was necessary for Heavenly Father's purposes, since he wouldn't be allow to enter the Philippines, on his mission, without taking them. We relied upon the promises in scripture like this; "....if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:18) although I know the shots don't exactly count as drinking, I do feel that the deadly things like mercury won't hurt him and keep him from being able to fulfill his mission, and if it did, I have full confidence in the miracle of priesthood healings.

From what I remember in the 80's and earlier, there were a lot less vaccinations then there are today. I wonder what the church would have to say about taking them now days if they made another statement about them. I do think some are worth taking, while others like the HPV for cervical is not warranted since the chances of most kids getting that are so slim in the first place, that the risks of side effects have a higher probability of happening to them.

I have personally seen problems with the flu shots, as it almost always seems to be the people that receive those shots who are the ones who end up getting the flu every year. I have only had the flu once since I decided to never take the flu vaccinations, as well as not having my kids take them, 12 years ago. That's when I found out that there is mercury in some of them. My son had the flu once too, but on an earlier year than mine. my daughter never had it since the decision to not have them. I have since learned a bit about colloidal silver and I make my own (no, I, nor my kids haven't even come close to turning blue, because I make it and use it correctly). I didn't use it for my son's bout with the flu, because I hadn't yet studied enough on homeopathic remedies, so he had to suffer with it for almost a week. The strain I ended up with, was particularly bad that year. Everyone seemed to get that one and it always lasted for two whole weeks, and was particularly bad. I got it and started drinking one ounce doses of Colloidal Silver, every six hours, as soon as I noticed the first signs of getting it. By the next morning I didn't have it anymore. Gone before it got miserable.

I think vaccination is something that we should prayerfully decide to do, and I in no way blame anyone for not taking them because there is obviously some shenanigans going on to help make the big pharma companies extra money. With a conflict in interest like that, I find it hard to just blindly trust. It is really hard to know which are helping and which are there just to sell more drugs.
 

Have I got a hospital for you:

 

[rpn]

The church has long had a firm position that says to follow competent medical advice.   That includes vaccinations.

[Traela]

Not getting vaccinated because of mercury is like not eating salt (which our bodies need) because sodium is toxic and explosive.  It is not elemental mercury, it's one element of a compound.

 

[pogi]

Last time I posted on this site I was a home health/hospice nurse.  I am now a public health nurse in international travel medicine.  I give pre-travel consultations and hundreds of vaccines a month to international travelers to developing countries.  Vaccines save lives and are one of the greatest achievements of biomedical science and public health, there is no doubt about that.

At some point however, vaccines will have been so effective in the US that the risk for serious adverse events from vaccination will actually be greater than the risk for disease the vaccine is protecting against.  That change in balance puts us in a medical and ethical quandary that few are willing to recognize.  Anyone who argues that vaccines are completely safe simply is unaware of the actual risks.  It is not surprising that so many Americans are unaware of the actual risks, because you kind of have to dig into the clinical trials and post-marketing experience to learn about them.  The vaccine information statements given to patients are not sufficient to truly educate the patient/parent and make them capable of "informed" consent.  They only list the most common side effects and the most rare allergic reaction.  There are many mild, moderate, and severe side effects that patients/parents simply are not aware of.  

Another bit of information that is required for truly informed consent is the risk for disease.  It has been my experience that most people, including medical professionals administering vaccinations, have no clue what the risks are for disease. Without knowing that information, how can a person weigh the risk of vaccination against the risk for disease?

Informed consent is an important medical ethic which unfortunately is violated through compulsory vaccination.  I believe that the medical ethic of informed consent is consistent with our religious teachings, and believe that perhaps there could be legitimate grounds for exemption on that point alone. 

If you had asked me one year ago about vaccination, I would have snubbed any “ignorant”, “reckless”, or “crazy” person who chose not to vaccinate his or her child.  Ironically, it took me becoming a public health nurse in international travel medicine before my unquestioning and unwavering vaccination stance began to soften.

[hope_for_things]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

My friend's sister does not vaccinate and they use a religious exemption to get out of it. They are active LDS. 

My friend has told her sister it's not honest to claim it's against her religion but it hasn't stopped them.  

I considered trying this when we had our first kid.  I was worried about allergic reactions as I personally have many allergies and one food allergy I have is severe and life threatening.  However, after I researched immunizations more I was comfortable moving forward.  The hard thing is there is a lot of misinformation out there, horror stories and conspiracy theories.  Thankfully my doctor was patient with me and encouraging me to get educated in a non threatening way, and this helped me to open my eyes.  His approach is what really helped most I think, otherwise I might have been too defensive and scared to be persuaded.  

[pogi]

16 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I am curious who would even check with a religion to see if the official position is for or against.

Some states actually require a signed affidavit from your bishop/pastor/spiritual leader.

[rongo]

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

My friend's sister does not vaccinate and they use a religious exemption to get out of it. They are active LDS. 

My friend has told her sister it's not honest to claim it's against her religion but it hasn't stopped them.  

It can be against her own personal religious beliefs without being against the official policies of the Church. That is, LDS (or anybody else) can have personal religious objections without it being an official or prevailing church tenet. 

My family is vaccinated, but I don't like how minor things keep getting added to the list. Like chicken pox. I think kids should get this as a child like we all did --- I think the immunity is better if you actually get it as opposed to dead or weakened virus vaccines. 

I also don't like being treated like a clueless, naive parent when we don't want our kids to have the Gardasil (HPV) vaccine. "Sure your kids are going to wait until marriage" . . . 

[bluebell]

Just now, rongo said:

I also don't like being treated like a clueless, naive parent when we don't want our kids to have the Gardasil (HPV) vaccine. "Sure your kids are going to wait until marriage" . . . 

My friend felt that way, until she discovered that her husband had been having an affair for three years with two different women and never wore protection.  He was in the bishopric, going to the temple, reading his scriptures and saying his prayers every day.  He was taking her on fancy vacations every year, always extremely engaged with the kids.   She had no reason ever to doubt. (I've known them both since high school and he really was the last guy anyone would EVER think capable of such a thing). Things are going good for them now but it was an incredibly rough year.

And one part of that was her having to go in and get tested for STDs.  Now, all of her kids have received the Gardasil vaccine because, as she told her oldest "you can do everything right, but you can't control what choices your future husband might make, before marriage or even after."

I was ambivalent on the chicken pox vaccine until we moved to a school district that required it.  

[Calm]

Chicken pox leads to shingles, which is nasty...extremely painful, as well as being dangerous for babies, pregnant women, the elderly, and the weak on its own.  Avoid chicken pox and shingles at the same time, seems like a nobrainer to me (though of course with the usual cautions of getting it when healthy, etc)  And healthy children and adults can die due to chicken pox infection as well as suffer from other serious complications.

Rongo, what immunity are you talking about that having the disease is more effective than the vaccine?

Edited November 8, 2016 by Calm

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Chicken pox leads to shingles, which is nasty...extremely painful, as well as being dangerous for babies, pregnant women, the elderly, and the weak on its own.  Avoid chicken pox and shingles at the same time, seems like a nobrainer to me (though of course with the usual cautions of getting it when healthy, etc)  And healthy children and adults can die due to chicken pox infection as well as suffer from other serious complications.

My sister had an awful case of the chicken pox when she was 3 or 4.  They were in her ears, down her throat, even in her vagina.  She was absolutely miserable for 7 days.  It was horrible to watch.

[cinepro]

35 minutes ago, rongo said:

Like chicken pox. I think kids should get this as a child like we all did --- I think the immunity is better if you actually get it as opposed to dead or weakened virus vaccines. 

 

How much have you read on the subject?  Because the CDC doesn't seem to agree with you.

Quote

Chickenpox can be serious. Before there was a vaccine, each year chickenpox caused about 4 million people to get sick, more than 10,500 hospitalizations, and about 100 to 150 deaths. Most people who get severe chickenpox are healthy beforehand.

---------------------------------------------

Two doses of chickenpox vaccine are very effective at preventing disease, including severe disease, complications, and death. Although rare, you can get chickenpox if you have been vaccinated. However, the symptoms are usually very mild, meaning fewer blisters, little or no fever, and quicker recovery .

Also, when you get vaccinated, you protect others in your community. This is especially important for people who cannot get vaccinated. People who cannot get the chickenpox vaccine include pregnant women and those with weakened immune systems. Learn more about who should not get chickenpox vaccine.

 

 

 

 

As for HPV, I've known lots and lots of LDS teenage girls who didn't wait until they were married, so I don't think it's a matter of them saying that your specific child needs the vaccine.  I think it's more a matter of not being able to tell who needs it and who doesn't, so everyone gets it.  From the parent's point of view, "That's crazy!", but from an epidemiological point of view, it's necessary and common sense.

Edited November 8, 2016 by cinepro

[pogi]

37 minutes ago, rongo said:

My family is vaccinated, but I don't like how minor things keep getting added to the list. Like chicken pox. 

An even more irritating one is Rotavirus, where your kid gets the "stomach flu" for a few days with diarrhea and potential vomiting, then they get better. 

What are some of the common side effects of the vaccine? Diarrhea, vomiting, irritability, cough, runny nose, fever...  The common side effects of the vaccine are the same symptoms of the usually mild disease itself.  But, when you add in the more serious potential adverse reactions to the vaccine, one has to question the mandate of this vaccine.  They include:

Pneumonia, intussusception (serious and life threatening bowel obstruction), Kawasaki disease (serious and potentially life-threatening inflamation of the blood vessels), and anaphylaxis.  Oh by the way, you are 74% more likely to die from the vaccine vs placebo (RR:1.74) with a 95% confidence interval!  They don't tell you that at the pediatricians office do they?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4181014/

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM133539.pdf

The church's previous statements on vaccination may make it exceedingly difficult for some to acquire a religious exemption from this vaccine in some states that require a signed affidavit from your religious leader. 

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by pogi

[cinepro]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

The church has long had a firm position that says to follow competent medical advice.   That includes vaccinations.

Long but not always.  There is a tradition of skepticism towards scientific medicine among some LDS that carries down from the 19th century, and such feelings are still strong among some people.

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V12N03_30.pdf

Obviously the medicine of Brigham Young's day is different than what we now have, but the attitudes haven't been "updated" with medical progress.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

An even more irritating one is Rotavirus, where your kid gets the "stomach flu" for a few days with diarrhea and potential vomiting, then they get better. 

 

The rotavirus is horrible.  I can't imagine why anyone would want their kids to suffer thru that if they could prevent it.  One of the latest articles that i've read about vaccinations was about a mother who was against vaccines until her kids all got the rotavirus.  

Anti-vaxxer mom changes mind...

[Calm]

Iirc, a rotavirus is what killed my dad.  He became dehydrated because he delayed going to the hospital (it was after all, just a stomach virus, something he lived through many times before), caused a cascade effect that damaged all his major organs. Somehow my mom who was cleaning up after him most of the night managed to resist it, but all of us kids who stayed with her and a few who just visited picked up the bug.  I have never hallucinated in my life when this happened.  It hit fast and hard.  I ended up lying on the floor of the bathroom for an hour or so unable to move.  Bizarrely for being the worst I ever had, I was fine the next day.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Calm

[cinepro]

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

  Oh by the way, you are 74% more likely to die from the vaccine vs placebo (RR:1.74) with a 95% confidence interval!  They don't tell you that at the pediatricians office do they?

 

That's not what the study you linked to says:

Quote

A significantly higher proportion of SAEs [Serious Adverse Events] were reported in the placebo group compared with the vaccine group (RR = 0.9 [95% CI: 0.82–0.98]; P = 0.01). The incidence of death was low and similar between the 2 groups (0.13% in the vaccine group and 0.11% in the placebo group; RR = 1.14 [95% CI: 0.78–1.68]; P = 0.54). Very few cases of intussusception were reported (11 and 7 in the vaccine and placebo groups, respectively; RR = 1.39 [95% CI: 0.49–4.27]; P = 0.66). In conclusion, results of this analysis of DBRCTs show that the human rotavirus vaccine Rotarix™ has a reactogenicity [common, “expected” adverse reactions such as a sore arm] and safety profile similar to placebo.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4181014/

 

You are totally misrepresenting the research on Rotovirus vaccines (especially the ancillary risks), and if anyone finds a pediatrician that echoes pogi's claims, FIND A NEW PEDIATRICIAN!

Vaccines aren't recommended because they're perfect or risk free.  They're used because they can significantly (or totally) reduce the incidence of dangerous, harmful (and sometimes fatal) diseases in an overall population.  There will be exceptions among individuals, but taking a vaccine is acting for the good of the community as well as the individual.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3982044/

Both [Rotovirus] vaccines are highly efficacious in preventing severe rotavirus gastroenteritis in infancy in high and middle income countries [

6-8], and in 2006 were recommended by WHO for use in the Americas and Europe where evidence of efficacy had been demonstrated [9]. In countries that have adopted rotavirus vaccine in their childhood immunization programmes, evidence of impact has been striking [10]. Importantly, evidence of reduction of diarrhoea deaths following routine rotavirus vaccination has recently been published from Mexico

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by cinepro

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Iirc, a rotavirus is what killed my dad.  He became dehydrated because he delayed going to the hospital (it was after all, just a stomach virus, something he lived through many times before), caused a cascade effect that damaged all his major organs. Somehow my mom who was cleaning up after him most of the night managed to resist it, but all of us kids who stayed with her and a few who just visited picked up the bug.  I have never hallucinated in my life when this happened.  It hit fast and hard.  I ended up lying on the floor of the bathroom for an hour or so unable to move.  Bizarrely for being the worst I ever had, I was fine the next day.

My dad suffered through a heart attack throughout the day and didn't call an ambulance, he just thought it was the flu. He finally got a hold of my husband (my sister and I never received his calls, both at work  )who drove him to the emergency room, but it was too late. Sounds like our dad's might have been the types to avoid going to doctors.