LDS Religious Exemptions from Vaccination

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, cinepro said:

That's not what the study you linked to says:

You didn't read both links:

"During the entire course of 8 clinical studies, there were 68 (0.19%) deaths following administration of ROTARIX (N = 36,755) and 50 (0.15%) deaths following placebo administration (N = 34,454). The most commonly reported cause of death following vaccination was pneumonia, which was observed in 19 (0.05%) recipients of ROTARIX and 10 (0.03%) placebo recipients (Relative Risk: 1.74, 95% CI: 0.76, 4.23)."

 

[Tacenda]

http://www.vaccinesandyou.com/adult/home/

Just found out that the reason my brother and sister in law didn't make it to our recent family reunion was because they caught whooping cough. It turned into a terrible fiasco, especially when they were basically quaranteed from others and the ward had to warn others about it. I think some other members caught it too. 

I think many of us, myself included, need to update our vaccines, because theirs had expired without their knowledge apparently!  

ETA: http://www.cdc.gov/Features/AdultImmunizations/

Edited November 8, 2016 by Tacenda

[rongo]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

My friend felt that way, until she discovered that her husband had been having an affair for three years with two different women and never wore protection.  He was in the bishopric, going to the temple, reading his scriptures and saying his prayers every day.  He was taking her on fancy vacations every year, always extremely engaged with the kids.   She had no reason ever to doubt. (I've known them both since high school and he really was the last guy anyone would EVER think capable of such a thing). Things are going good for them now but it was an incredibly rough year.

And one part of that was her having to go in and get tested for STDs.  Now, all of her kids have received the Gardasil vaccine because, as she told her oldest "you can do everything right, but you can't control what choices your future husband might make, before marriage or even after."

I was ambivalent on the chicken pox vaccine until we moved to a school district that required it.  

I had a sister in a previous ward who had cervical cancer because her husband had had two affairs within their previous ward and had given her HPV. She had to have her cervix removed, and was only in her 30s. Yes, even people who keep the commandments can unwittingly get infected from unfaithful spouses, but overwhelmingly, keeping the commandments will fully protect most people. 

When I attended ASU for two semesters back in 2006, HPV awareness and vaccination was a big deal because, we were told, 3/4 of the 75,000 students at ASU already have HPV. Three out of four! And condom use doesn't protect against it. 

[Tacenda]

Devasting Bluebell and Rongo, for the situations you posted about. This is really scary.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

I had a sister in a previous ward who had cervical cancer because her husband had had two affairs within their previous ward and had given her HPV. She had to have her cervix removed, and was only in her 30s. Yes, even people who keep the commandments can unwittingly get infected from unfaithful spouses, but overwhelmingly, keeping the commandments will fully protect most people. 

When I attended ASU for two semesters back in 2006, HPV awareness and vaccination was a big deal because, we were told, 3/4 of the 75,000 students at ASU already have HPV. Three out of four! And condom use doesn't protect against it. 

It's a disease that we are still learning about, for sure.  A recent study (of 51 women) just showed that 51% of women (who were virgins) had the HPV in their genital tract.  Now they are starting to believe that you can even get it from touching other people's gentiles and even from uncleaned gym equipment or at dr. offices.

[pogi]

57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The rotavirus is horrible.  I can't imagine why anyone would want their kids to suffer thru that if they could prevent it.  One of the latest articles that i've read about vaccinations was about a mother who was against vaccines until her kids all got the rotavirus.  

Anti-vaxxer mom changes mind...

 

Chance of getting Rotavirus in US = 1 in 90 (1.10% chance).

http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/r/rotavirus/stats.htm

Chance of having similar symptoms from adverse reactions to the vaccine:

Diarrhea (4%)

Fussiness/irritability (52%)

Cough Runny nose (28%)

Fever (25%)

Anorexia (25%)

Vomiting (13%)

Source: Vaccination information incert

Your child may be more likely to get diarrhea and vomiting etc. from the vaccine than they are from the disease itself.  Not to mention pneumonia, intussusception, kawasaki disease, anaphylaxis, and death.

You list one mothers perspective who's children unfortunately had the disease, but if you ask the mother who's child died from intussusception related to the vaccine, she might have a different story.  There are risks with either choice, but shouldn't that choice be the parents decision after weighing the risks?

Death from the disease is extremely rare in the US (you are literally more likely to get struck with lightening), death from vaccination is also rare.  Knowing that death from disease is completely avoidable with proper hydration and knowing that death from vaccination is like playing Russian roulette (unavoidable in certain circumstances), I think your chances are better with the disease as far as death is concerned. 

Edited November 8, 2016 by pogi

[waveslider]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Have I got a hospital for you:

 

Ha ha, thanks that is pretty funny! It is a funny way to write off all alternatives to remedies that can't be patented. Although there are a lot of hokey things out there, there truly are things that work better than drugs, for instance Ben Swan just put out a video yesterday on a more effective remedy that is grown in a plant that the federal government classifies as having no medical purpose whatsoever, even though they hold a patent on it's compounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-vzhUT5irY

5 hours ago, Traela said:

Not getting vaccinated because of mercury is like not eating salt (which our bodies need) because sodium is toxic and explosive.  It is not elemental mercury, it's one element of a compound.

 

Thiomersal is an organic form of Mercury, which still causes the same harmful effects as elemental Mercury, only not as quickly as elemental Mercury because the organic Mercury isn't as pure as the elemental kind, as it gets through the blood brain barrier and collects in the brain, as well as in other major organs in the body, and science hasn't even figured out all of the effects it has on the human body yet. So keep telling yourself it is safe, and watch T.V. and buy stuff so you can gain more credit. All is well in Zion too.

[cinepro]

33 minutes ago, pogi said:

You didn't read both links:

"During the entire course of 8 clinical studies, there were 68 (0.19%) deaths following administration of ROTARIX (N = 36,755) and 50 (0.15%) deaths following placebo administration (N = 34,454). The most commonly reported cause of death following vaccination was pneumonia, which was observed in 19 (0.05%) recipients of ROTARIX and 10 (0.03%) placebo recipients (Relative Risk: 1.74, 95% CI: 0.76, 4.23)."

 

 

 

Right.  You're saying that someone should avoid a vaccine because the risk of death was 19/10,000 compared to 15/10,000.  That's half the argument.

So what are the statistics on the benefits?  And how do you compare the statistical benefits to the statistical dangers?

[cinepro]

2 minutes ago, waveslider said:

Ha ha, thanks that is pretty funny! It is a funny way to write off all alternatives to remedies that can't be patented.

Just so I'm clear, are you saying that you think water should be eligible for a patent?  If so, who would get it?

[bluebell]

Is the low chance of getting the virus in the US do to the vaccination rate?  

Rotavirus is one of the major causes of death in children under 5 according to WHO.  In the US, before the Rotavirus vaccine became widely given, it was killing 20-60 kids each year, and putting 55,000-70,000 kids in the hospital.  

 

 

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

My friend felt that way, until she discovered that her husband had been having an affair for three years with two different women and never wore protection.  He was in the bishopric, going to the temple, reading his scriptures and saying his prayers every day.  He was taking her on fancy vacations every year, always extremely engaged with the kids.   She had no reason ever to doubt. (I've known them both since high school and he really was the last guy anyone would EVER think capable of such a thing). Things are going good for them now but it was an incredibly rough year.

And one part of that was her having to go in and get tested for STDs.  Now, all of her kids have received the Gardasil vaccine because, as she told her oldest "you can do everything right, but you can't control what choices your future husband might make, before marriage or even after."

I was ambivalent on the chicken pox vaccine until we moved to a school district that required it.  

That would be great if the HPV vaccine covered the majority of related viruses, of which there are over 40, that are just as harmful as the 4 (If I'm not mistaken) strains it does protect against. The odds of getting one of those 4 virus strains are less than the odds of having harmful side effects from the actual vaccine itself. Not to mention the false sense of security that many teens will view as a green light to have unprotected sx. I think at the very least people should be well informed before prayerfully taking these types of vaccines, and getting informed usually won't come from the doctor who isn't always as well informed as we might think.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, waveslider said:

I think at the very least people should be well informed before prayerfully taking these types of vaccines, and getting informed usually won't come from the doctor who isn't always as well informed as we might think.

Yes, better to get our information from random people on the internet.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

Ha ha, thanks that is pretty funny! It is a funny way to write off all alternatives to remedies that can't be patented. Although there are a lot of hokey things out there, there truly are things that work better than drugs, for instance Ben Swan just put out a video yesterday on a more effective remedy that is grown in a plant that the federal government classifies as having no medical purpose whatsoever, even though they hold a patent on it's compounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-vzhUT5irY

Thiomersal is an organic form of Mercury, which still causes the same harmful effects as elemental Mercury, only not as quickly as elemental Mercury because the organic Mercury isn't as pure as the elemental kind, as it gets through the blood brain barrier and collects in the brain, as well as in other major organs in the body, and science hasn't even figured out all of the effects it has on the human body yet. So keep telling yourself it is safe, and watch T.V. and buy stuff so you can gain more credit. All is well in Zion too.

My husbands' and my friend gets a flu shot every year and gets a terrible flu each time. I've never gotten a flu shot, and I think I've had one really bad flu that put me down once in my life. I tend to think you're taking a gamble.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Tacenda

[waveslider]

31 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Just so I'm clear, are you saying that you think water should be eligible for a patent?  If so, who would get it?

What I am saying is a profit margin shouldn't hinder better medicines with less, or even no, unwanted side effects from being administered to patients, instead of the patented chemicals that can be less effective and even have a chance of causing more harm.

[pogi]

27 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Right.  You're saying that someone should avoid a vaccine because the risk of death was 19/10,000 compared to 15/10,000.  That's half the argument.

So what are the statistics on the benefits?  And how do you compare the statistical benefits to the statistical dangers?

I am simply saying that the risk for dying from vaccination may be greater than the risk for dying from the disease.  Dying from the disease is completely preventable given appropriate action.  The same cannot be said for the risk of dying from vaccination. 

The only way to quantify the benefit of a vaccine is by estimating the risk for the disease it aims to protect against and by calculating the effectiveness of the vaccine in producing antibodies against the disease (you don't receive 100% immunity from vaccination, however some are more effective than others).  When you know the risk for disease and the effectiveness of the vaccine in producing antibodies, you can get some idea of the potential benefit of the vaccine.

Some people call it a risk benefit analysis.  For me, I prefer to call it a risk vs. risk analysis because we are really comparing the risk of disease against the risk of vaccination.  In doing so, we should always advise and encourage for the option with the lowest risk of harm.  As the Hippocratic Oath states, "first, do no harm".

[waveslider]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, better to get our information from random people on the internet.  

Or perhaps it is better to get our info. from the what is available to the doctors too, but the doctors usually don't study all aspects of something that their drug book tells them about already, and hence they only know what the basics are unless they have a personal interest enough to delve deeper into it. There are just too many things for the doctors to study in great detail, all of them.

You don't have to learn from random people when you can check what is in the medicines themselves: http://www.cdc.gov/VACCINEs/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf and then look up peer reviewed, scientific analysis of each ingredient. I do know there is a lot of bunk out there to sort through but when it comes to health, being too lazy to check for yourself isn't a good excuse when we have the internet at hand.

[waveslider]

30 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My husband and my friend gets a flu shot every year and gets a terrible flu each time. I've never gotten a flu shot, and I think I've had one really bad flu that put me down once in my life. I tend to think you're taking a gamble.

So far, since I have learned to make and use colloidal Silver, I haven't been severely sick from a pathogen since. Although life is a gamble anyway. One thing for sure, I will never take a flu shot. Colloidal Silver works better as far as I have seen.

[pogi]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is the low chance of getting the virus in the US do to the vaccination rate?  

That and we have better hygiene/food regulations than developing countries.  It is spread by the fecal - oral route. 

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Rotavirus is one of the major causes of death in children under 5 according to WHO.  

Rotavirus is a serious problem in developing countries due to higher rates of malnutrition and inadequate medical care.  The vaccine obviously has its place.  Where the risk of death from disease is greater than the risk of death from vaccination, the vaccine would obviously be a wise choice.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

My dad suffered through a heart attack throughout the day and didn't call an ambulance, he just thought it was the flu. He finally got a hold of my husband (my sister and I never received his calls, both at work  )who drove him to the emergency room, but it was too late. Sounds like our dad's might have been the types to avoid going to doctors.

Most definitely.  He had to go for a couple of things, but he pretty much ignored everything he could, even forgetting to take his hormone supplements for his missing pituitary gland.  He would just slowly shut down and only after a day of sleepwalking through, it would occur to him....but he would be ticked off if Mom 'treated him like a child' by asking him if he took his meds.  Refused to even talk to me about what I had found out about RLS (which I got from him) and instead just went to Mayo, got a drug there and then went home and depended on a local doctor.  Found out after he died while I was cleaning out their apt. he was on 8 times too much drug (4 mg instead of the recommended .5).  The doctor thought it was okay because the higher dosages are given to Parkinson's patients, but once you hit the recommended level, you are obviously in aggravation stage where the anti-Parkinson drugs make it worse (one of the reasons I have it so severe is the AP drugs aggravate from day 1 for me, but Canadian doctors refused to look at anything else, it was quality of lifesaving to move down to Utah because of that even if I love everything else about Canada).  5 minutes of talking to me could have save him a huge amount of pain and discomfort and probably would have prevented his marriage from moving into the stage of barely tolerating each other (since the drug screws up memory and emotions).

He has taught me that being stoic and independent (that was just an illusion anyway, because Mom was always there supporting him...no (wo)man is really an island if s/he lives with someone) is not taking care of yourself, but making life harder for everyone else.  So now I probably share too much, but no one can claim around my home that they didn't know what was going on with me so it screwed up their plans, interfered with their life in unnecessary ways, etc.

[cinepro]

36 minutes ago, waveslider said:

What I am saying is a profit margin shouldn't hinder better medicines with less, or even no, unwanted side effects from being administered to patients, instead of the patented chemicals that can be less effective and even have a chance of causing more harm.

Keep in mind that patents on medicine only last 20 years.  So you or anyone else can build a factory and make any medicine you want that was invented before 1996.

The process of identifying "better" medicines is quite rigorous, and all real medicines have "side effects," because a "side effect" is just another name for an "effect."  If a substance has no "side effects", then the promoter is simply telling you that it doesn't actually have any "effect" other than the placebo effect, or that they haven't done any actual studies to quantify the effectiveness (and safety!) of the substance.  Either way, it should be cause for skepticism.

[cinepro]

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, waveslider said:

So far, since I have learned to make and use colloidal Silver, I haven't been severely sick from a pathogen since. Although life is a gamble anyway. One thing for sure, I will never take a flu shot. Colloidal Silver works better as far as I have seen.

For those who are curious about "colloidal silver"

And there's always this...

Quote

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is advising consumers about the risk of permanent skin and mucous membrane discoloration, known as argyria, associated with the use of dietary supplements that contain silver, including colloidal silver. Argyria is a permanent and irreversible grayish or bluish discoloration of the skin, conjunctiva (the clear membrane that covers the white part of the eye), nails, and gums. Although argyria is not dangerous to physical health, some patients with argyria may experience significant negative psychological or social consequences as a result of the condition. In addition, the use of silver-containing dietary supplements may interfere with the body's absorption of some drugs, such as quinolone antibiotics [ciprofloxacin (Cipro), norfloxacin (Noroxin), ofloxacin], tetracycline antibiotics, thyroxine, and penacillamine (Cuprimine).

Argyria may develop quickly with the use of products that contain large amounts of silver or may develop gradually over time with the use of products that contain small amounts of silver. Based on the available scientific information, FDA is not able to advise consumers of a dose or use restrictions that would minimize or eliminate the risk of argyria. However, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has established a chronic oral Reference Dose (RfD) of 5 micrograms (µg) of silver per kilogram (kg) of body weight per day (5 µg/kg/day) based on a review of 70 cases of argyria that were associated with oral and other uses of silver compounds. For a 70 kg person (or about 154 pounds body weight), this would be about 350 µg of silver per day. Ingesting silver in amounts close to or above the EPA RfD may put a consumer at risk of developing argyria. If you are using or considering using a dietary supplement that contains silver and have questions or concerns about its safety for you in your particular circumstances, you should discuss those concerns with your health care provider.

http://www.fda.gov/food/recallsoutbreaksemergencies/safetyalertsadvisories/ucm184087.htm

 

Side effects indeed...

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by cinepro

[pogi]

Here is another risk vs. risk analysis that I have done with the the PCV 13 vaccine.  

It is important to know some terminology here.  Because some studies don't list what the "serious adverse events" are that follow vaccination, I actually wrote the CDC and asked them what constitutes a "serious adverse event".  This was their exact reply that I have copy and pasted from my email:

Quote

Serious adverse events (SAE)" is a category according to a FDA regulatory definition. It includes conditions that are: life threatening, result in death, result in inpatient hospitalization, result in prolongation of existing hospitalization, or result in persistent or significant disability.

Knowing that, let me show you a summary of the risk vs. risk analysis I performed.

Risk of disease = 2/100,000 (0.002% chance)

Serious adverse events reported during clinical trials = 8.2% of PCV13 recipients. 

Risk of Kawasaki disease from vaccination is actually equal to the risk of pneumococcal disease or 2/100,000 (Basically swapping the exact risk for one disease for another with that one).

Which option would you pick after knowing the potential risks for disease and vaccination?

Here is the full analysis:

Pneumococcal Disease vs. PCV13 Vaccination

Risk vs Risk Analysis

 

Incidence of pneumococcal disease caused by the 13 serotypes covered by PCV13 among children <5 years old

•  2 cases per 100,000 in 2015 (0.002% chance)

https://www.cdc.gov/pneumococcal/surveillance.html

Streptococcus pneumoniae (pneumococcus) is a gram-positive bacterium with more than 90 known serotypes. Pneumococcus is spread by airborne droplets and is a leading cause of serious illness, including bacteremia, meningitis, and pneumonia among children and adults worldwide.   Although all serotypes may cause serious disease, a relatively limited number of serotypes cause the majority of invasive pneumococcal disease (IPD).

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt11-pneumo.html

 

Greatest risk categories:

·         In group child care

·         Sickle cell, HIV, chronic heart or lung conditions

·         Cochlear implants or CSF leaks

·         American Indian, Alaska Native, and African American children

·         Younger than 2 years old

https://www.cdc.gov/pneumococcal/about/risk-transmission.html

 

 

PCV13 Vaccine Risks

 

Adverse Reactions after Administration of PCV13 in Clinical Trials (6 weeks to 15 months of age)

 

Common reactions:

·         Injection-site reactions

·         Fever

·         Decreased appetite

·         Irritability

·         Increased or decreased sleep

·         Diarrhea

·         Vomiting

·         Rash

 

Reactions occurring in <1% of infants and toddlers following PCV13 included

·         Crying

·         Hypersensitivity reaction (including face edema, dyspnea, and bronchospasm)

·         Seizures (including febrile seizures)

·         Urticaria or urticaria-like rash

 

The most commonly reported serious adverse events included bronchiolitis, gastroenteritis, and pneumonia.

 

In clinical trials, serious adverse events reported following vaccination occurred among 8.2% of PCV13 recipients.

 

Certain rare adverse events that were observed: hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode, apnea, anaphylactic/anaphylactoid reaction including shock, angioneurotic edema, erythema multiforme, injection-site dermatitis, injection-site pruritus, injection-site urticaria, and lymphadenopathy localized to the region of the injection site.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5911a1.htm

·         Risk of Kawasaki Disease (per 100,000 doses) (95% confidence interval, CI) = 2/100,000

http://vaccinesafetyresource.elsevier.com/sites/default/files/Pne-Tseng-Postlicensure.pdf

 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It's a disease that we are still learning about, for sure.  A recent study (of 51 women) just showed that 51% of women (who were virgins) had the HPV in their genital tract.  Now they are starting to believe that you can even get it from touching other people's gentiles and even from uncleaned gym equipment or at dr. offices.

My doctor said he had been finally convinced by his years in Utah that it could show up in exclusive relationships.  He knew the science wasn't there (this was about ten years ago), but figured it would be eventually. There just wasn't reason for so many to lie to him.

In one case I know of, they had decided an abusive relative had many more victims than originally thought (confessed to and semiremembered...which may or may not be true memories) given the family couldn't figure out why so many daughters and daughters in law had it.  While it would be a shame if it were this contagious, it is a more pleasant thought than thinking of this great family as having most of their kids abused as babies by the uncle.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Calm

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

That and we have better hygiene/food regulations than developing countries.  It is spread by the fecal - oral route. 

Rotavirus is a serious problem in developing countries due to higher rates of malnutrition and inadequate medical care.  The vaccine obviously has its place.  Where the risk of death from disease is greater than the risk of death from vaccination, the vaccine would obviously be a wise choice.

Also, where the risk of sickness is greater than the risk from the vaccine, the vaccine is a wise choice.  Considering that the number of children ages 0-5 being hospitalized has dropped by 85-90% since the introduction of the vaccine (that's a reduction of 40,000 to 50,000 each year), and severe side effects due to the vaccine are incredibly rare (1 in 20,000-1 in 100,000), that seems like good odds. 

[Tacenda]

48 minutes ago, waveslider said:

So far, since I have learned to make and use colloidal Silver, I haven't been severely sick from a pathogen since. Although life is a gamble anyway. One thing for sure, I will never take a flu shot. Colloidal Silver works better as far as I have seen.

Good to know!!