The New Era: "The Church Has No Official Position on The Theory Of Evolution"

[bcuzbcuz]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

"O ye of little faith," is what the Savior would say to you.  You are being disingenuous.  For those who posit prophecy and the power of the Holy Spirit, there is naturally no impermeable barrier.

Little faith? --------yeah I can accept that. When someone states an incredulous answer, i expect an incredulous answer. I remember as a faithful YM youth of going around the graves of the Third Avenue cemetery in East Salt Lake, copying and taking rubs from gravestones. My mother worked for years, many years, in scanning through records on archive files of microfilm and microfiche to copy and correlate and confirm death and birth data, marriages and children.

You mean this whole process, where no such records exist, will be sped up to have direct channels to the actual people involved so their work can be done? I´ll hold my breathe till you tell me how it will be done.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Religion is in my rear view mirror

That you are here suggests you do more then glance at it. Make sure not to run into anything due to the distraction.

[mrmarklin]

On 9/29/2016 at 7:01 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

Its the churches position that those humans who lived before Adam existed had no spirits...or did you not read the linked ensign article. To quote the church, "there were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on earth prior to Adam and Eve". Don't argue with me...it's them you have to reconcile with Nehor

We are taught that all things were created spiritually before being created physically.  These beings had spirits, just not children of Heavenly Father..

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

We are taught that all things were created spiritually before being created physically.  These beings had spirits, just not children of Heavenly Father..

You're  making up new church doctrine....this is kind of like the 2 Cumorah apologetics...you're  presented with a problem so you just make up a solution whole clothe with nothing to support it

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That you are here suggests you do more then glance at it. Make sure not to run into anything due to the distraction.

All good drivers use their rear view mirrors Nehor, to avoid obstacles 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

 

You mean this whole process, where no such records exist, will be sped up to have direct channels to the actual people involved so their work can be done? I´ll hold my breathe till you tell me how it will be done.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-40-temple-work-and-family-history?lang=eng

"Because of the destruction of the wicked at the Savior’s Second Coming, only righteous people will live on the earth at the beginning of the Millennium. They will be those who have lived virtuous and honest lives. These people will inherit either the terrestrial or celestial kingdom.

During the Millennium, mortals will still live on earth, and they will continue to have children as we do now (see D&C 45:58). Joseph Smith said that immortal beings will frequently visit the earth. These resurrected beings will help with the government and other work. (See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 268.)...

There will be two great works for members of the Church during the Millennium: temple work and missionary work. Temple work involves the ordinances that are necessary for exaltation. These include baptism, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the temple ordinances—the endowment, temple marriage, and the sealing together of family units.

Many people have died without receiving these ordinances. People on the earth must perform these ordinances for them. This work is now being done in the temples of the Lord. There is too much work to finish before the Millennium begins, so it will be completed during that time. Resurrected beings will help us correct the mistakes we have made in doing research concerning our dead ancestors. They will also help us find the information we need to complete our records. (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:167, 251–52.)"

Edited October 2, 2016 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

All good drivers use their rear view mirrors Nehor, to avoid obstacles 

Yes, but if you need to avoid that is behind you then clearly you are backing up. Welcome home brother!  

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Little faith? --------yeah I can accept that. When someone states an incredulous answer, i expect an incredulous answer. I remember as a faithful YM youth of going around the graves of the Third Avenue cemetery in East Salt Lake, copying and taking rubs from gravestones. My mother worked for years, many years, in scanning through records on archive files of microfilm and microfiche to copy and correlate and confirm death and birth data, marriages and children.

You mean this whole process, where no such records exist, will be sped up to have direct channels to the actual people involved so their work can be done? I´ll hold my breathe till you tell me how it will be done.

Your mother and my mother did great work.  The Lord requires that we do all we can.  After that, we can depend upon the power of the Holy Spirit -- in which you do not believe.  in any case, the heavenly books will be opened and all will be disclosed.  Jewish New Year begins Tuesday, at which time Jews will begin wishing each other well, and saying "May you be written in the Book of Life."

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You're  making up new church doctrine....this is kind of like the 2 Cumorah apologetics...you're  presented with a problem so you just make up a solution whole clothe with nothing to support it

Only yokels suggest a two-Cumorah hypothesis.  I know of no scholars who have suggested it.  That is a straw man.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You're  making up new church doctrine....this is kind of like the 2 Cumorah apologetics...you're  presented with a problem so you just make up a solution whole clothe with nothing to support it

No, he is coming up with a speculative idea that could fit the teachings of the Church together which may or may not be true. This is unlike your speculation which tries to make exceptions to some teachings.

So why are you judging his made-up whole cloth solution when yours is much more shabby?

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Cold Steel said:

Science says there's solid evidence to support the existence of humans twenty thousand years ago, yet there's no evidence that I know of of any written language existing more than five or six thousand years ago. If we could find ancient text with either dates or references to celestial events that we know existed ten-to-fifteen thousand years ago or older, it would be an additional burden on us. In fact, I believe it was Hugh Nibley who talked about how strange it is that we don't see the evolution of written language that we should if it had just started from scratch.

We know Adam was identified in the geneaologies as the "son of God" and that Brigham Young taught that Adam and Eve were brought to this earth from another world and that they were fully developed. Also, that they apparently had a developed written language by which they kept records. Whether they came here with that knowledge or had to develop it themselves, we don't know. They came here as adults with a spoken language which surpasses our own. When and where did they learn it and where did they learn their written language?

I suppose we'll have to wait for more information from the vaulted heavens. In the meantime, my position must be the same as that of the church. I take no position on the question of organic evolution. Or UFOs. Or Bigfoot. 

 

Completely agree with you on the development of written language.  Without written records, beliefs of pre-historic mankind is unknowable and therefore non-existent for all practical purposes.  Those who existed before written records have no voice.

One could make a good case for the idea that modern mankind began with written language around 6 thousand years ago.

To me, where these people came from, since that is unknowable, becomes irrelevant to us culturally.  There is no history which in a cultural sense means they did not really "exist" in any way we can speak about.  It is not surprising that these stories of human origins as archetypes originate around 6000 years ago.

[thesometimesaint]

11 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

-A nice thought but completely devoid of material confiirmation. It doesn´t matter if  those  who once lived, are still alive on the other side...waiting. Just how are their names communicated to us without any written records. The church would need contact through the veil, big time.

So far, I have never heard of any detailed description of how stats from lost generations are conveyed across the live-death barrier.

I reasonably sure that if someone on the other side of veil wants the work to be done. It will be done. 

[canard78]

On 30/09/2016 at 7:25 AM, The Nehor said:

The Church does not take a position on them at all. However if they existed (and I believe they did) then most likely they had spirits of some kind. Just not like ours in some way. Could they be exalted in some way? Sure.

Or another God used this world first or they had spirits of a completely different type we do not understand that are not the same as us or you are right. I do not doubt many of them are in some kind of heaven. It will be one of many things I hope to find out at some point. God has not seen fit to reveal much about them. He starts the story at Adam and Eve. Our spiritual story starts there. I suspect there is much more going on on this earth then we understand and that God is fulfilling many purposes. I mean, for all we know dolphins or some other creature may have a future glory that would shock us. If the dolphins ever disappear though.....time to worry.

 

What a blessing it must be to be LDS and have a prophet, seer and revelator. Having God's mouthpiece as the leader of your church means questions* about why we are here and what our origins are can be answered through the simple gift of revelation.

*Excluding questions that can be challenged by science or reason, like why some people's black skin stopped them having priesthood or what the state of the human race was 10,000 years ago. Prophets attempted to use m revelation to answer those questions in the past and ended up looking silly so, instead, now their successors say "we don't know/no official position." It's probably safer that way. 

[mikegriffith1]

Evolution is a silly fairy tale that one day will be regarded as the biggest hoax ever foisted on mankind. When the Church says it has no official position, that's often another way of saying, "We've made it clear for many years and in so many different ways that this teaching is false, but since some don't want to accept this, we now have no official position and you will need to study, pray, and come to your own conclusion."

http://miketgriffith.com/files/ldsleadersonevolution.htm

http://miketgriffith.com/files/ldsandevolution.htm

Theistic evolution is intelligent design, since you are positing that God designed life to evolve.

So you're left with godless evolution and something from nothing, if you reject the idea of intelligent design.

Edited October 2, 2016 by mikegriffith1

[bcuzbcuz]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Completely agree with you on the development of written language.  Without written records, beliefs of pre-historic mankind is unknowable and therefore non-existent for all practical purposes.  Those who existed before written records have no voice.

One could make a good case for the idea that modern mankind began with written language around 6 thousand years ago.

To me, where these people came from, since that is unknowable, becomes irrelevant to us culturally.  There is no history which in a cultural sense means they did not really "exist" in any way we can speak about.  It is not surprising that these stories of human origins as archetypes originate around 6000 years ago.

"Irrelevant to us culturally" Exactly the same argument used between the province of BC and the  Xeni Gwet'in, also known as the Stone Chilcotin, a subgroup of the Tshilhqot'in people.

It took 5 years of court time and was finally decided by Canada´s Supreme Court, in favour of the Xeni Gwet ´ín.

The main argument against the First Nations was that because they didn´t have a written language they could not prove any entitlement to the land. After 5 years of arguing it was finally established that merely having a piece of paper that stated ownership was not the only marker for entitlement.

The written languages of the Mesopotamian and Egyptian cultures show that their written languages developed slowly. If you want to read about one of those languages from a very dependable British National Museum site, go to http://www.mesopotamia.co.uk/writing/story/sto_set.html

The idea that written languages suddenly arose, full blown, fully developed, is pure fantasy. 

[thesometimesaint]

2 hours ago, mikegriffith1 said:

Evolution is a silly fairy tale that one day will be regarded as the biggest hoax ever foisted on mankind. When the Church says it has no official position, that's often another way of saying, "We've made it clear for many years and in so many different ways that this teaching is false, but since some don't want to accept this, we now have no official position and you will need to study, pray, and come to your own conclusion."

http://miketgriffith.com/files/ldsleadersonevolution.htm

http://miketgriffith.com/files/ldsandevolution.htm

Theistic evolution is intelligent design, since you are positing that God designed life to evolve.

So you're left with godless evolution and something from nothing, if you reject the idea of intelligent design.

SEE

 

[cinepro]

4 hours ago, canard78 said:

What a blessing it must be to be LDS and have a prophet, seer and revelator. Having God's mouthpiece as the leader of your church means questions* about why we are here and what our origins are can be answered through the simple gift of revelation.

*Excluding questions that can be challenged by science or reason, like why some people's black skin stopped them having priesthood or what the state of the human race was 10,000 years ago. Prophets attempted to use m revelation to answer those questions in the past and ended up looking silly so, instead, now their successors say "we don't know/no official position." It's probably safer that way. 

**Or even something as simple as the general area where the epic, 1,000 year history of The Book of Mormon took place.

[canard78]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

**Or even something as simple as the general area where the epic, 1,000 year history of The Book of Mormon took place.

True. As with the previous examples, earlier prophets had a go at pinpointing specific locations. These days it's as non-specific as Atlantis.

[BCSpace]

On 9/29/2016 at 4:21 PM, cinepro said:

In what could be the most momentous development since the publication of the essays, the Church has finally conceded major ground on the evolution issue. 

If going from "evolution is unbelievable" to "who knows?!" is progress, then this is major progress.

 

How so?  That the Church has had no official position on Evolution has been true since the 1909 statement and before.  This is very old news.

[theplains]

On 02/10/2016 at 7:46 PM, BCSpace said:

How so?  That the Church has had no official position on Evolution has been true since the 1909 statement and before.  This is very old news.

According to McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine":

(Devolution ) 
See EVOLUTION. 

Devolution is the opposite of evolution; in the biological sense it means the degeneration 
of species. According to God's law there is no such thing as the development of higher 
forms of life from lower orders of creation anymore than lower orders degenerate from higher. 
In each instance living things bring forth after their own kind (Moses 2), each form of life 
remaining "in the sphere" in which God created it. (Moses 3:9.) 

Speaking of the degrees of civilization and decency found within nations in successive ages, 
it is clear that there have been instances of great national devolution or degeneracy. The 
American Indians, in their tribal and degenerate state, were the descendants of the highly 
civilized Nephite civilization that prevailed on the American continent for nearly 200 years 
after the ministry of Christ in the Western Hemisphere. So-called cave men and the like were 
all degenerate descendants of the highly civilized men who peopled the earth beginning with 
Adam, the father of civilization.

Regards,
Jim

[JLHPROF]

36 minutes ago, theplains said:

According to McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine":

(Devolution ) 
See EVOLUTION. 

Devolution is the opposite of evolution; in the biological sense it means the degeneration 
of species. According to God's law there is no such thing as the development of higher 
forms of life from lower orders of creation anymore than lower orders degenerate from higher. 
In each instance living things bring forth after their own kind (Moses 2), each form of life 
remaining "in the sphere" in which God created it. (Moses 3:9.) 

Speaking of the degrees of civilization and decency found within nations in successive ages, 
it is clear that there have been instances of great national devolution or degeneracy. The 
American Indians, in their tribal and degenerate state, were the descendants of the highly 
civilized Nephite civilization that prevailed on the American continent for nearly 200 years 
after the ministry of Christ in the Western Hemisphere. So-called cave men and the like were 
all degenerate descendants of the highly civilized men who peopled the earth beginning with 
Adam, the father of civilization.

Makes me wonder sometimes if we aren't in a period of Devolution right now.

[cinepro]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Makes me wonder sometimes if we aren't in a period of Devolution right now.

Only if you're a white, Christian male.

[BCSpace]

10 hours ago, theplains said:

According to McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine":

(Devolution ) 
See EVOLUTION. 

Devolution is the opposite of evolution; in the biological sense it means the degeneration 
of species. According to God's law there is no such thing as the development of higher 
forms of life from lower orders of creation anymore than lower orders degenerate from higher. 
In each instance living things bring forth after their own kind (Moses 2), each form of life 
remaining "in the sphere" in which God created it. (Moses 3:9.) 

Speaking of the degrees of civilization and decency found within nations in successive ages, 
it is clear that there have been instances of great national devolution or degeneracy. The 
American Indians, in their tribal and degenerate state, were the descendants of the highly 
civilized Nephite civilization that prevailed on the American continent for nearly 200 years 
after the ministry of Christ in the Western Hemisphere. So-called cave men and the like were 
all degenerate descendants of the highly civilized men who peopled the earth beginning with 
Adam, the father of civilization.

Regards,
Jim

BRM's work "Mormon Doctrine" is not official doctrine because it's not published by the LDS Church, the gold standard for official doctrine.  The Church was interested in it at one time, but rejected even after a major revision because it contained too much personal opinion.  David O McKay, prophet at the time, was actually quite friendly to Evolution.

[thesometimesaint]

20 hours ago, theplains said:

According to McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine":

(Devolution ) 
See EVOLUTION. 

Devolution is the opposite of evolution; in the biological sense it means the degeneration 
of species. According to God's law there is no such thing as the development of higher 
forms of life from lower orders of creation anymore than lower orders degenerate from higher. 
In each instance living things bring forth after their own kind (Moses 2), each form of life 
remaining "in the sphere" in which God created it. (Moses 3:9.) 

Speaking of the degrees of civilization and decency found within nations in successive ages, 
it is clear that there have been instances of great national devolution or degeneracy. The 
American Indians, in their tribal and degenerate state, were the descendants of the highly 
civilized Nephite civilization that prevailed on the American continent for nearly 200 years 
after the ministry of Christ in the Western Hemisphere. So-called cave men and the like were 
all degenerate descendants of the highly civilized men who peopled the earth beginning with 
Adam, the father of civilization.

Regards,
Jim

Mormon Doctrine is not LDS doctrine.

[Bob Crockett]

34 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Mormon Doctrine is not LDS doctrine.

An informal survey I once made showed that Mormon Doctrine and Joseph Fielding Smith's similar work, "Doctrines of Salvation" are the two most frequently quoted works in General Conference addresses.   It just goes to show that in Mormon sermons by General Authorities, it doesn't matter much what is "canonical" or "doctrinal" as the Church is not so hide-bound.  The Church's "no-position" position on evolution came about a hundred years ago and has remained the Church's position ever since, but there are many General Authorities who see it otherwise.