The New Era: "The Church Has No Official Position on The Theory Of Evolution"

[cinepro]

In what could be the most momentous development since the publication of the essays, the Church has finally conceded major ground on the evolution issue. 

If going from "evolution is unbelievable" to "who knows?!" is progress, then this is major progress.

 

Quote

 

The Church has no official position on the theory of evolution. Organic evolution, or changes to species’ inherited traits over time, is a matter for scientific study. Nothing has been revealed concerning evolution. Though the details of what happened on earth before Adam and Eve, including how their bodies were created, have not been revealed, our teachings regarding man’s origin are clear and come from revelation.

Before we were born on earth, we were spirit children of heavenly parents, with bodies in their image. God directed the creation of Adam and Eve and placed their spirits in their bodies. We are all descendants of Adam and Eve, our first parents, who were created in God’s image. There were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve were created. In addition, “for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family.” They fell from that state, and this Fall was an essential part of Heavenly Father’s plan for us to become like Him. (See Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet,” Apr. 2015 general conference.)

For further reference, see “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, 78; Ensign, Feb. 2002, 29. See also Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 5 vols. (1992), “Evolution,” 2:478.

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2016/10/to-the-point?lang=eng

 

Edited September 29, 2016 by cinepro

[JLHPROF]

"the Church has finally conceded major ground"
I think that's a bit of a stretch.
 

[Danzo]

Why is there an expectation that everything published by the church be consistent?

[cinepro]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

"the Church has finally conceded major ground"
I think that's a bit of a stretch.
 

Obviously the statement can (and will) be parsed to death; there is a lot that it doesn't say.  But compared to what the New Era was publishing just a few years ago on the subject, it's a big step forward to tell teenagers that...maybe evolution.

Quote

 

When your biology teacher says the facts point to evolution, what do you say?

“Do you believe in God?”

“Yes,” I stammered. I couldn’t believe it. Here I was sitting in front of four of my best friends and my high school biology teacher, and not one of them believed in God.

“But what about evolution?” my friends asked.

My biology teacher, who had a reputation for being stubborn and persistent, turned his head momentarily from his papers and said: “Now, let’s be logical here. Look at the facts. Where does the evidence point?”

I was tongue-tied. I have known the Church is true since I was very young. I felt it was true. However, at the same time, logic and reason were driving forces in my life.

As I sat there, trying to come up with an answer to their questions, the awkward silence gave them satisfaction. They thought I had hit a dead end in my reasoning, as they expected I would. Thinking of no arguments to counter their position, I silently said a quick prayer, pleading with God to direct my words toward these five people. Within seconds a thought crossed my mind: “It is not you who converts, but the Spirit.”

Upon hearing those simple words, I began to share my testimony with my friends. I said, “I know there is a God, and He has a Son who created the world and saved us all. Whether or not we have all the answers now doesn’t discredit the fact that there is a God. God works line upon line and precept upon precept. Until we prove our faith, God will not reveal more to us.” I finished by confirming my testimony of the Church and its leaders, forgetting to even address the original questions posed.

After I finished, they all sat in silence, staring at me. I could feel my face getting hot. Just then, the bell rang. I grabbed my bag, thankful for this escape route, and headed for the door. As I opened the door, my biology teacher swung his chair around and called my name.

I turned, anticipating a rebuttal and, to my shock, found a sincere face staring back at me. “Thank you,” he said.

My simple testimony had conveyed more convincing truth than any logical debate could have. I know that I did not dissolve their accusations and criticisms that day, but the Holy Spirit did.

A Greater Evolution

“I remember when I was a college student there were great discussions on the question of organic evolution. I took classes in geology and biology and heard the whole story of Darwinism as it was then taught. I wondered about it. I thought much about it. But I did not let it throw me, for I read what the scriptures said about our origins and our relationship to God. Since then I have become acquainted with what to me is a far more important and wonderful kind of evolution. It is the evolution of men and women as the sons and daughters of God, and of our marvelous potential for growth as children of our Creator.” —President Gordon B. Hinckley, “God Hath Not Given Us the Spirit of Fear,” Ensign, Oct. 1984, 5.

 

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2004/05/my-answer-to-evolution?lang=eng

 

Now, that student could just say "The details of what happened on earth before Adam and Eve, including how their bodies were created, have not been revealed.  Maybe it was evolution?"

Edited September 29, 2016 by cinepro

[The Nehor]

Not so sure. My Institute manuals back in college basically said the same thing.

[Johnnie Cake]

 Since the church is taking the position that there were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve...

I have these Serious Questions:

Who created all of the spiritless pre-Adamite humans?

Since the Church is conceding that a Human body can survive without a spirit...since pre-Adamite Human had no spirit, Does the Primary need to get rid of their finger puppets?

Since pre-Adamite humans had no spirit, how exactly do they sync with the the plan of salvation?

Are the spiritless Pre-Adamites excluded from eternal life, the Atonement and thus the Resurrection and doomed to eternal death?

Edited September 29, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[The Nehor]

Just now, Johnnie Cake said:

Who created all of the spiritless pre-Adamite humans?

Why do they have to not have spirits?

The rest of your questions fall apart when that is in question.

[JAHS]

27 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

 Since the church is taking the position that there were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve...

I have these Serious Questions:

Who created all of the spiritless pre-Adamite humans?

Since the Church is conceding that a Human body can survive without a spirit...since pre-Adamite Human had no spirit, Does the Primary need to get rid of their finger puppets?

Since pre-Adamite humans had no spirit, how exactly do they sync with the the plan of salvation?

Are the spiritless Pre-Adamites excluded from eternal life, the Atonement and thus the Resurrection and doomed to eternal death?

Although there has been different opinions among past church leaders, the existance of pre-Adamites is not an official doctrine of the church.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

In what could be the most momentous development since the publication of the essays, the Church has finally conceded major ground on the evolution issue. 

If going from "evolution is unbelievable" to "who knows?!" is progress, then this is major progress.

All Elder Nelson is saying is that in light of what has been revealed, the conclusions of those without scriptural understanding or recognition of God are unbelievable. Everything else in the article has also been addressed in official statements since the early 1900s.

Evolution: "Some things never change." LOL

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Why do they have to not have spirits?

The rest of your questions fall apart when that is in question.

Its the churches position that those humans who lived before Adam existed had no spirits...or did you not read the linked ensign article. To quote the church, "there were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on earth prior to Adam and Eve". Don't argue with me...it's them you have to reconcile with Nehor

[katherine the great]

Hmmm.  Modern humans date back to at least 190,000 years ago.  Adam and Eve tilled the ground for their food so they were definitely agriculturists so they must have lived within the last 12,000 years.  That is a lot of modern humans--even "civilized" ones without spirits.  Unless he is referring to "spirit children" as children of the covenant and not actual spirits.

[cinepro]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Why do they have to not have spirits?

The rest of your questions fall apart when that is in question.

The only other explanation is that there were countless generations of humanoids that looked, walked and acted like humans before Adam and Eve, and they had spirits that were created by God, but even though they looked like humans, they were actually animal spirits. 

Kind of a weird thought, since presumably these spirits continued to exist after they died, so there is a heaven full of humanoid animal spirits somewhere.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

The only other explanation is that there were countless generations of humanoids that looked, walked and acted like humans before Adam and Eve, and they had spirits that were created by God, but even though they looked like humans, they were actually animal spirits. 

Kind of a weird thought, since presumably these spirits continued to exist after they died, so there is a heaven full of humanoid animal spirits somewhere.

The heartbreaking part of that doctrine...we do our geneaology back to Adam, joining all children to their parents in one eternal family.

But yeah, Adam, Eve, I'm afraid your Mom and Dad weren't fully human so they don't get to be with you for eternity, nor do they get exaltation and eternal increase.
We know you loved them, and they raised you to be the heads of the first dispensation of the gospel, but sorry, they're just animals.

Nonsense.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Its the churches position that those humans who lived before Adam existed had no spirits...or did you not read the linked ensign article. To quote the church, "there were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on earth prior to Adam and Eve". Don't argue with me...it's them you have to reconcile with Nehor

The Church does not take a position on them at all. However if they existed (and I believe they did) then most likely they had spirits of some kind. Just not like ours in some way. Could they be exalted in some way? Sure.

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

The only other explanation is that there were countless generations of humanoids that looked, walked and acted like humans before Adam and Eve, and they had spirits that were created by God, but even though they looked like humans, they were actually animal spirits. 

Kind of a weird thought, since presumably these spirits continued to exist after they died, so there is a heaven full of humanoid animal spirits somewhere.

Or another God used this world first or they had spirits of a completely different type we do not understand that are not the same as us or you are right. I do not doubt many of them are in some kind of heaven. It will be one of many things I hope to find out at some point. God has not seen fit to reveal much about them. He starts the story at Adam and Eve. Our spiritual story starts there. I suspect there is much more going on on this earth then we understand and that God is fulfilling many purposes. I mean, for all we know dolphins or some other creature may have a future glory that would shock us. If the dolphins ever disappear though.....time to worry.

 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Why do they have to not have spirits?

The rest of your questions fall apart when that is in question.

I like Johnnie personally, but man he has a warped understanding of Mormonism.  It's straight out of a Jack Chick comic book.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Its the churches position that those humans who lived before Adam existed had no spirits...or did you not read the linked ensign article. To quote the church, "there were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on earth prior to Adam and Eve". Don't argue with me...it's them you have to reconcile with Nehor

Totally false logic.  figure it out

There could be spirit children of someone else -even other gods to make the point- before Adam and Eve from that statement.  The statement doesnt say that, of course but that would not be ruled out by that statement.   Just look at what it says.  You could argue that the earth was made of green cheese before Adam and Eve and be consistent with the statement.  It says NO REVELATION before A&E.  That's all it says.  It is not a science text either.  The only thing that contradicts the statement is that there WERE spirit children of HF before A&E.  There could have been Martians or green eyed reptilian humans who were spirit children of Urg of Wotlak.   Got the idea yet??   All it says is that there were no spirit children of HF!!!!

Further animals could have spirits but just not be spirit children of Heavenly Father.   Dude I know you can do better than this.  This is four year old logic

Edited September 30, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Hmmm.  Modern humans date back to at least 190,000 years ago.  Adam and Eve tilled the ground for their food so they were definitely agriculturists so they must have lived within the last 12,000 years.  That is a lot of modern humans--even "civilized" ones without spirits.  Unless he is referring to "spirit children" as children of the covenant and not actual spirits.

Bingo.  That is one solution, one paradigm of a zillion possible

All spirits do not have to be spirits of Heavenly Father either.   Just think logically at all the possibilities implied 

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The Church does not take a position on them at all. However if they existed (and I believe they did) then most likely they had spirits of some kind. Just not like ours in some way. Could they be exalted in some way? Sure.

Or another God used this world first or they had spirits of a completely different type we do not understand that are not the same as us or you are right. I do not doubt many of them are in some kind of heaven. It will be one of many things I hope to find out at some point. God has not seen fit to reveal much about them. He starts the story at Adam and Eve. Our spiritual story starts there. I suspect there is much more going on on this earth then we understand and that God is fulfilling many purposes. I mean, for all we know dolphins or some other creature may have a future glory that would shock us. If the dolphins ever disappear though.....time to worry.

 

Great post- I unfortunately didnt read it before my tirade! 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The heartbreaking part of that doctrine...we do our geneaology back to Adam, joining all children to their parents in one eternal family.

But yeah, Adam, Eve, I'm afraid your Mom and Dad weren't fully human so they don't get to be with you for eternity, nor do they get exaltation and eternal increase.
We know you loved them, and they raised you to be the heads of the first dispensation of the gospel, but sorry, they're just animals.

Nonsense.

But consistent with the statement of what is NOT revealed, one can now make up one's own speculative scenarios.

How about that Adam's parents are still in the garden of "innocence" having partaken of the tree of life perhaps here or in another world?  Or perhaps having been given the fruit by our snakey friend, as has been done in other worlds, but they were allowed to also take of the tree of life, because the paradox of the "fortunate fall" did not happen in their world?  We even have evidence of this being implied, you know where!

Perhaps evolution happened here and other Gods - God's Father for example - had "pre Adamite" children - and/ or other Gods---

Suppose those worlds were right here before the fall?  How many "other worlds" could have been right here on this planet full of "pre-Adamites"?

Suppose Adam's "world" REALLY WILL exist 7 thousand years, and we are getting close to the end after all?  Suppose another God takes over in a thousand years??

Suppose gods themselves evolve along with their children??

Suppose there was no "sin" because no one had the agency to sin?  Suppose those folks didn't have the intelligence to "sin" and Adam was a mutant of higher intelligence?

Suppose.......    Suppose.....    

There are so many ways out of this that one could speculate scenarios all day which make everyone happy and even exalted.

We don't know means WE DON'T KNOW but we have to presume that God is good and he made it work out- whatever the solution of the Master Chessmaster was.  

He always wins!

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

The only other explanation is that there were countless generations of humanoids that looked, walked and acted like humans before Adam and Eve, and they had spirits that were created by God, but even though they looked like humans, they were actually animal spirits. 

Kind of a weird thought, since presumably these spirits continued to exist after they died, so there is a heaven full of humanoid animal spirits somewhere.

"The only explanation?"

OH come on!!!   Get a little creative.   Maybe you could sell a script.

[Rivers]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The heartbreaking part of that doctrine...we do our geneaology back to Adam, joining all children to their parents in one eternal family.

But yeah, Adam, Eve, I'm afraid your Mom and Dad weren't fully human so they don't get to be with you for eternity, nor do they get exaltation and eternal increase.
We know you loved them, and they raised you to be the heads of the first dispensation of the gospel, but sorry, they're just animals.

Nonsense.

Animals are not capable of sin in the same way as humans.  And since they are not accountable, maybe they automatically get to go to heaven and be sealed to us.

[Rivers]

I don't think the church has ever explicitly stated that there is no official position on evolution.  This really is groundbreaking.

[bcuzbcuz]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Church does not take a position on them at all. However if they existed (and I believe they did) then most likely they had spirits of some kind. Just not like ours in some way. Could they be exalted in some way? Sure.

Or another God used this world first or they had spirits of a completely different type we do not understand that are not the same as us or you are right. I do not doubt many of them are in some kind of heaven. It will be one of many things I hope to find out at some point. God has not seen fit to reveal much about them. He starts the story at Adam and Eve. Our spiritual story starts there. I suspect there is much more going on on this earth then we understand and that God is fulfilling many purposes. I mean, for all we know dolphins or some other creature may have a future glory that would shock us. If the dolphins ever disappear though.....time to worry.

 

You need to read Douglas Adams, "So Long and Thanks For All The Fish"

[Boanerges]

3 hours ago, Rivers said:

I don't think the church has ever explicitly stated that there is no official position on evolution.  This really is groundbreaking.

This is not directed at you Rivers, it's just that your comment is farther down the list and brought us back tot he topic at hand.

This idea that the church has no official position on evolution isn't new. Here's a FAIR link that discusses the idea: FAIR evolution. The links to the letters are especially interesting. Wikipedia also has an extensive article with links: Wikipedia LDS evolution.

So Cinepro, I'll take the stance of our friendly LDS historians and others who defend some of our less well known history: Just because you didn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't exist - you just had to look for it. And like Joseph Smith's polygamy, this was something I've known for a long time.

[Gray]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Church does not take a position on them at all. However if they existed (and I believe they did) then most likely they had spirits of some kind. Just not like ours in some way. Could they be exalted in some way? Sure.

Or another God used this world first or they had spirits of a completely different type we do not understand that are not the same as us or you are right. I do not doubt many of them are in some kind of heaven. It will be one of many things I hope to find out at some point. God has not seen fit to reveal much about them. He starts the story at Adam and Eve. Our spiritual story starts there. I suspect there is much more going on on this earth then we understand and that God is fulfilling many purposes. I mean, for all we know dolphins or some other creature may have a future glory that would shock us. If the dolphins ever disappear though.....time to worry.

 

They were human beings. Are we creating another second class status for people based on another misguided attempt to read a symbolic story as if it were referring to two actual living human beings? Adam and Eve symbolize men and women. That's it. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by Gray