Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I mentioned earlier that there is a difference between helping and enabling poor ideas or unhealthy behavior. I would rather teach boys and girls less body shame, normalizing the body (as opposed to keeping it in a shroud of mystery), accepting that attractions exist and should exist and that over time one will learn to bridle it so that it serves their best desires which should include relational sex. I'd teach the difference between attraction and lust. That sexual attraction is bound to happen but that lust (or desiring/seeking after something/one you can't have) needs to be tapered. I'd point out that there's nothing wrong with acknowledging attraction, but the person doesn't have to reciprocate said feelings and that attraction doesn't mean that something sexual/romantic/whatever needs to happen. In fact most times nothing will happen. I would teach them that only they are accountable for what they do with this gift of sexual desire, attraction, and general sexuality. And that just because someone looks good to you doesn't mean they "made you" look at them. It's just indicative you find something attractive about them. I would also teach them how not to objectify and that sexual attraction is best expressed when in balance with other forms of knowing a person better and in alignment with your personal goals and spiritual desires. I would also teach them to treat their bodies well, love the gift that we fought for before we came, and dress it in a manner that expresses your appreciation for a God-given gift. What this may look like may differ based on covenants made, personal preferences in expression, and where they're at.

A longer skirt, looser pants, or whatever else has no way of really teaching them this.

 

With luv,

BD

All excellent points and wonderful principles. But when reality strikes as it inevitably does, the questions will all be along the line, How long? How short? How tight? How revealing? How little can I wear to the dance and still get in? Kids always have and always will test the limits. Should limits be imposed? What should modest dress, based on the principles you listed, look like? Is it different for men and women? At what point should adults intervene?

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[bsjkki]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Even Zion's University appears to foster a double standard. Why is that?

Because I see athletic young people practicing and you see scantily clad young ladies? Modesty culture tends to have people view others by what they are wearing instead of what they are doing.

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I think you missed my sarcasm.  I also don't think shorts are inappropriate.  Do you have a definition of 'short shorts' or 'short skirts.'  The Strength of Youth is highly subjective. Do you think we should add measurements and use rulers to determine the modesty of teen girls attire?

No, I caught the sarcasm. From these comments, though, it appears to be agenda driven, but I may be wrong. I don't play the inches-of-impurity game. I would not send my kids inappropriately dressed (sweaty sports shorts) to a Church activity to make some sort of a point, but that's just me.

[Bernard Gui]

20 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Because I see athletic young people practicing and you see scantily clad young ladies? Modesty culture tends to have people view others by what they are wearing instead of what they are doing.

Oh you got me there. Nicely played. Now Bernard Gui is the sexist reprobate. But the facts are this is a photo of males and females dressed for activity at BYU. All the males are dressed in loose baggy long shorts and t-shirts and all the girls are in tight short shorts and tank tops. It's a clear and intentional double standard. What is the modesty culture that explains this? Who is being exploited? What is the real sexism here?

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[bsjkki]

I don't have an agenda.  I'm just a mom with lots and lots of daughters who has sat through far too many modesty discussions and am guilty of giving a few too.  The double standard between the ym and yw is frustrating and this generation of young women see it.  That is why this media circus happened in the first place.

Edited September 15, 2016 by bsjkki

[Rain]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No, I caught the sarcasm. From these comments, though, it appears to be agenda driven, but I may be wrong. I don't play the inches-of-impurity game. I would not send my kids inappropriately dressed (sweaty sports shorts) to a Church activity to make some sort of a point, but that's just me.

Where did you get the idea that she was doing it to make a point? It's just a matter of practicality.  They were doing athletics and right after that they went to a church activity. 

[bsjkki]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh you got me there. Nicely played. Now Bernard Gui is the sexist reprobate. But the facts are this is a photo of males and females dressed for activity at BYU. All the males are dressed in loose baggy long shorts and t-shirts and all the girls are in tight short shorts and tank tops. It's a clear and intentional double standard. What is the modesty culture that explains this? Who is being exploited? What is the real sexism here?

If you watch their routine, it is because the girls are getting thrown in the air and doing the flips.  It would be unsafe for them to be in baggy shorts.

[Bernard Gui]

I apologize for being so obstinate. This is an issue to which I have given much thought for many years.

Going into my 7th decade, I still have a few vague and fleeting memories of those years of hormone-induced frenzy. Having taught public schools for 42 years and raised 7 children, I have observed hundreds of kids pass through this crucible. Any kid who makes it through unscathed has my admiration.

But I always come back to the words of the Savior....

Quote

Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery; But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery already in his heart. Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart; For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

Quote

And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out..... And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear.

Well, no one wants to deny the faith and be cast out. These teachings are the object of intense ridicule today, more than at any time I can remember. Do they deserve the ridicule? Is it no longer wrong to commit adultery in your heart? Are women immune from this old-fashioned notion?

Given modern sensibilities and attitudes toward sexuality, should this heavy burden be cast aside as just another vestige of the patriarchal dominance of women? Or, as a number of comments have suggested, should men just suck it up, face it like the men they are supposed to be, and shut the heck up? 

The poor kid at Timp HS has learned a hard lesson. The needs of the 44 outweigh the needs of the 1, and so it should be in cases like this? What are we to make of it?

Edited September 16, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[strappinglad]

12 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

If you watch their routine, it is because the girls are getting thrown in the air and doing the flips.  It would be unsafe for them to be in baggy shorts.

Have you ever watched a basketball dunking contest? The men doing it are usually in baggy clothes and some even do it in full mascot uniform. They do jumps and flips and sommersaults and all without benefit of short shorts. Ask the boys in the cheer squad to wear the girls type of shorts and they would rebel. Ask the girls to wear the male short type and they would balk also.

There is a biological imperative built in to every species without which the species goes extinct. For many species the onus in on the male for displays and attraction behaviors. The female gets to choose who she will mate with. With humans both genders use displays for attraction. For some reason the female human uses body and coverings to work her magic. The male uses power and wealth and physical prowess to work his. To deny this is futile and counter productive. The scriptures ask us to keep all this within the bounds the Lord has set.

When I park my car in a parking lot I take the keys and lock the doors. I shouldn't have too in an perfect world, but this world is far from perfect. I suppose I should be able to walk in dark alleys in the inner city without fear, but I don't. Some SJWs want to ride naked through the streets without anyone judging them or have lustful thoughts. Reasonable or wishful thinking?

For those who think that clothing and appearance don't matter, ask the lawyers here if they make any suggestions about how their clients should dress in court. We all know the game, but woe betide anyone who fails to play by the rules.

[strappinglad]

Oh, the writer of the article in the OP has no clue about true rape culture. He should be dropped into Nigeria or parts of India or even areas of Sweden and Germany and experience real rape culture . For that matter he could spend a few weeks in a serious prison in good old USA and discover that women aren't the only ones who experience unwanted advances.

[Guest]

When I read the title of the tread, I laughed out loud. I grew up Baptist, in Georgia and in the 50's...every Christian religion promotes modesty, in dress and in action. All teach Chasity, all encourage modest dress, it is not any kind of "rape culture", it is a Christ centered culture. Our Church just has been more successful, which always brings critics. But one thing for sure is this, all good parents teach all their children modesity. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Where did you get the idea that she was doing it to make a point? It's just a matter of practicality.  They were doing athletics and right after that they went to a church activity. 

From the accompanying comments such as "feeling rebellious." 

 

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

If you watch their routine, it is because the girls are getting thrown in the air and doing the flips.  It would be unsafe for them to be in baggy shorts.

Perhaps a longer short would also be safe. Compare male and female gymnastic uniforms. 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.angelfire.com%2Fmd%2Fmdgym%2Fimages%2Fnemov2.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.angelfire.com%2Fmd%2Fmdgym%2Fboys.html&docid=prgqLQGYbwzjAM&tbnid=Jddahhbf1IC8DM%3A&w=300&h=307&hl=en-us&client=safari&bih=905&biw=768&ved=0ahUKEwig-4S64ZLPAhVN3WMKHalvDgsQMwhWKBIwEg&iact=mrc&uact=8

But all this is beside the point.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I´d be very upset if any of my daughters or grand-daughters were required by their workplace to wear skimpy, or see through clothing. I don´t agree with the idea that a woman needs to display her legs or bosom in order to get tips, or to catch the attention at a job.

Or cheer the boys on to victory?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I don't have an agenda.  I'm just a mom with lots and lots of daughters who has sat through far too many modesty discussions and am guilty of giving a few too.  The double standard between the ym and yw is frustrating and this generation of young women see it.  That is why this media circus happened in the first place.

No offense intended, but this sounds like an agenda. Practing cheer routines in sweats seems safe for these young ladies. The game uniforms worn by the BYUP ladies are far more modest than those in the workout photo that was posted.

 

[Rivers]

18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

On another thread, a poster pointed out this fatuous story as evidence of rape culture in Utah.... and by implication in the Church.

http://fox13now.com/2016/09/12/timpview-high-cheerleaders-rally-in-defense-of-uniforms-after-complaint/

"I feel like this obsession with female modesty is just feeding into the rape culture that is far too prevalent in the area."

Does emphasis on modesty create a rape culture among Mormons?

Yes. In priesthood meetings, the men talk how much they endorse rape and how to perpetuate it.

[bsjkki]

32 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No offense intended, but this sounds like an agenda. Practing cheer routines in sweats seems safe for these young ladies. The game uniforms worn by the BYUP ladies are far more modest than those in the workout photo that was posted.

 

No offense intended but really? Did you listen to the video? This is a beginner class. I truly can't believe you think athletes training should be more covered up. Your view seems extreme.  I'm including this article just because it contains BYU women's athletic uniforms and I love sarcasm/satire. http://rationalfaiths.com/young-women-please-help-my-sons-stay-clean-pure/  

Edited September 16, 2016 by bsjkki

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Yes. In priesthood meetings, the men talk how much they endorse rape and how to perpetuate it.

You guys too?  

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, bsjkki said:

No offense intended but really? Did you listen to the video? This is a beginner class. I truly can't believe you think athletes training should be more covered up. Your view seems extreme.  I'm including this article just because it contains BYU women's athletic uniforms and I love sarcasm/satire. http://rationalfaiths.com/young-women-please-help-my-sons-stay-clean-pure/  

Yes, I listened. I posted the video as a contrast with the photo posted of the BYU squad. It was asserted that women have to wear skimpier uniforms than the men in order to be safe doing their "flips." Yet in some sports where men and women perform similar actions, the women's costumes are less modest than the men's at BYU. Compare the men/women volleyball and gymnastics uniforms. I simply ask why? The suspension of modesty standards for sports sends mixed messages. I am no extremist; however, I do believe in the principal and practice of modesty. 

The article you posted illustrates the mockery heaped on those who advocate for modesty, specifically humiliating General Authorities, and it even makes the same accusation that the Church fosters a "rape culture" because of its stand. The article is in the same league as the news stories ridiculing the Timp boy, the Church, and BYU, but written by a brother in the faith.

You posted earlier "If you watch their routine, it is because the girls are getting thrown in the air and doing the flips.  It would be unsafe for them to be in baggy shorts." But these guys (not the beginning class) seem to perform quite well in baggy shorts and t-shirts.... And there's a whole lot of flipping and throwing going on.

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Robert F. Smith]

21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

On another thread, a poster pointed out this fatuous story as evidence of rape culture in Utah.... and by implication in the Church.

http://fox13now.com/2016/09/12/timpview-high-cheerleaders-rally-in-defense-of-uniforms-after-complaint/

"I feel like this obsession with female modesty is just feeding into the rape culture that is far too prevalent in the area."

This has nothing to do with "rape culture."

Seriously? There are many times one person's complaint causes hardship for others. Roe v. Wade comes to mind. As did the 2 Wiccans who complained to our school board about the stereotype Halloween witches and now Halloween is called Harvest Festival with nothing associated with Halloween allowed in the schools including pumpkins. And our Christmas Concerts are now called Winter Concerts where the music teachers have to count the "holiday" songs and justify the educational use of carols because someone complained. And there are dozens of examples on public school and college campuses where an individual or small group claims offense at something or someone and it is banned. Transgender locker rooms anyone? Talk about one person trumping everyone's rights!

Who is objectifying the women? Everyone knows professional and most college cheerleaders' uniforms are designed for only one purpose.... to motivate the team to play harder and win the game, of course. 

And talk about double standards, moral ambiguity, confusion, objectifying women, hypocrisy, and general nuttiness.... On the same web page as this goofy article about cheerleaders is the story of the "hottest" elementary teacher in America. Crivens!

Does emphasis on modesty create a rape culture among Mormons?

Reminds me of the story about Pres David O. McKay during a July 24th Pioneer Day parade:  A beautiful drum majorette came by at the head of a school band clad in something like a one-piece bathing suit.  One of the Brethren commented to Pres McKay that she was immodest.  Pres McKay replied that he could see nothing but beauty.  Perception is everything.

The criminologists who study rapists have always found that modesty is not even indirectly related to rape.  Rape is an act of anger, violence, and power projection by men who are incapable of love.  It is often committed by cowards when they find a vulnerable female -- drunk or otherwise disabled by drugs.  How to avoid rape?  Women should go places with a trustworthy friend and be very cautious about what is imbibed.  Then there are the sociopathic Bill Cosbys and Roger Aileses of the world, working the system.  Caution is always called for.

[Bernard Gui]

Ah yes, the Pres McKay story. It's kind of the Godwin's Law of LDS modesty discussions. The longer the discussion, the closer to certainty that it will appear. 

Would you say it justifies immodesty? Or does it imply there is no need for modesty if we were are all pure of heart as was Pres McKay? Does the Church foster a "rape culture" because of its emphasis on modesty? I don't know. That's why I'm asking these questions.

And the Bill Clintons of the world. Caution indeed, but let's not get political.

“The best protection against rape, stalking, and domestic violence is to raise men who both understand that women are different, and would never dare take advantage of this difference.” 
― Wendy Shalit, A Return to Modesty: Discovering the Lost Virtue

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

14 hours ago, bsjkki said:

If you watch their routine, it is because the girls are getting thrown in the air and doing the flips.  It would be unsafe for them to be in baggy shorts.

My daughter was a cheerleader and I attest to this!!

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, I listened. I posted the video as a contrast with the photo posted of the BYU squad. It was asserted that women have to wear skimpier uniforms than the men in order to be safe doing their "flips." Yet in some sports where men and women perform similar actions, the women's costumes are less modest than the men's at BYU. Compare the men/women volleyball and gymnastics uniforms. I simply ask why? The suspension of modesty standards for sports sends mixed messages. I am no extremist; however, I do believe in the principal and practice of modesty. 

The article you posted illustrates the mockery heaped on those who advocate for modesty, specifically humiliating General Authorities, and it even makes the same accusation that the Church fosters a "rape culture" because of its stand. The article is in the same league as the news stories ridiculing the Timp boy, the Church, and BYU, but written by a brother in the faith.

You posted earlier "If you watch their routine, it is because the girls are getting thrown in the air and doing the flips.  It would be unsafe for them to be in baggy shorts." But these guys (not the beginning class) seem to perform quite well in baggy shorts and t-shirts.... And there's a whole lot of flipping and throwing going on.

 

This aren't the flowy shorts or athletic shorts shown in the previous video.

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is a different tone from your original statement.

This seems to indicate an intention to flaunt the Church dress standards by sending them to meetings inappropriately dressed.

[Storm Rider]

We do get wound up on this topic.  As I have read through many of the posts, read articles, and reviewed Church material I think there is a high degree of confusion - specifically, that people are conflating what modesty is and what we believe about it.  

First, I read two articles, one in Time entitled, "The Troubling Connection Between Modesty Culture and Rape Culture" and the other on Patheos entitled, "How the Modesty Doctrine Fuels Rape Culture".  They promoted the concept that women/girls needed to be modest because their bodies caused boys or men to fall or to sin.  The problem with this line of thinking is this is not why or how The Church of Jesus Christ teaches modesty.  Prima facie evidence is simply to look at the temple garment.  We don't wear the garment because without it the opposite sex would fall into sin.

We teach that we are modest because we glorify God both in our spirit and in our bodies (See 1 Cor 6:20).  Further, and imo, that the human body is sacred.  How we clothe the sacred is revealing; it expresses who we are and what caliber of people interest us and the person/people we desire to be.  

I acknowledge that some parents and individuals may teach the concept of modesty poorly or that they miss the more important aspects of the concept.  Yet, that does not invalidate the need for modesty or makes modesty invalid.  Further, the wrong teaching methods should not dictate an end to all teaching of modesty and/or allow the fact we teach modesty to then be accused of promoting the rape culture.  I think the accusation is wrong and it is stretching credulity to make it responsible for assisting or building a rape culture.  

It is perplexing to me that some make the accusation that the language we use to teach modesty is vague or easily misunderstood.  Please tell me, who does not understand what the following means:  "short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, and shirts that do not cover the stomach....."  Is there a single thinking adult or teenager that really does not understand what a short skirt is or short shorts?  Why play with words or strive to become pharisees.  No, we have never needed to measure the length of a short skirt and we should not attempt to define it as such.  If you cannot bend over to pick up your shoe without showing your backside your skirt is too short.  This is just plain old common sense, which seems to be in short supply in this day and age.

When teaching modesty we need to teach it property and for the right reasons.  We are not modest to benefit others, but to further strengthen our own relationship with God and reflect our understanding of holiness, righteousness, and beauty.  

 

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Storm Rider

[Tacenda]

It's gone national. http://www.people.com/article/utah-cheerleaders-body-shamed