Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[BlueDreams]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

We agree then, that true and accurate understanding of Mormon values cannot lead to the conclusion that the Church fosters a rape culture. Those active men who exhibit the behaviors you describe clearly have not come to a full understanding or commitment? The fault lies not in the ideals, but in the human striving to achieve them. 

Not to appear contentious nor wanting to perpetuate this discussion, but to be frank, I don't feel you answered my questions and you still have some misunderstandings of the situation and my response, but time to move on. Thanks for everything.

 

Change that to gospel, and yes I agree. The church has and can foster rape-culture. Because the Church are its people and some of those people are "active," and sometimes they fall short, and sometimes we can harm without meaning to because of ignorance, or have our cultural influences guide us, etc. But a fuller understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is antithetical, IMHO, to a rape-culture in its fullest fruition. We're just not at it's fullest fruition as a church.

Ok. I'm not sure what questions I haven't answered. If you meant these: 

To clarify, as I mentioned earlier, I was not in a position to see exactly what the young man was seeing. The look on his face and her checking his reaction was sufficient to figure out what was happening. Do you think she "caused" him to have impure thoughts? Should he have exercised a more mature self-control and looked away? It would have been suicide had I maneuvered myself into a position to see it for myself and I knew that instinctively at the time, n'est-se pas? I'm a bit surprised it matters whether it was explicit or not. Given all we have discussed, would (not should) a young man have been viewed differently if he were doing this to a girl? I think he would because male exhibitionism seems to be considered more egregious than female. I don't think this was what might be called normal behavior, male or female, in a school setting.

I didn't answer because you sounded in the previous paragraph to let it go and I'd already made several long posts. I'm not a prolific poster. So I didn't respond. But if you want these answered I will.

I don't think she "caused" him to have impure thoughts any more than potifer's wife could force Joseph to have an affair with her. I'm allergic to the word "Should"....he's a teen still learning self-control. I would hope he would, with guidance, learn to stop focusing on the one thing as mentioned in the quote I gave you. I don't speak french and I'm too tired to look that up. I wouldn't look at the girl I would be looking at the boy to help pull his attention back to the instructor. Whether a boy or a girl it would depend on consent of both parties. Either way the setting is inappropriate, so it doesn't matter it's equally inappropriate. Male exhibitionism can be considered more egregious than female because it's more likely to fall into a variant sexual behavior that is taking advantage of another without consent. It can also include a greater sense of physical danger that's generally not there for men as it is for women. But either way it's a problem and could be prosecuted. I'm confused as to why these are being brought up again. I already mentioned that I found this experience appropriate. I'm not an instructor, I don't know protocol, and I would not allow it to continue. I am a therapist, so my natural inclination is to help the girl learn boundaries and for the boy to focus and over time, learn to direct his sexual urges. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

"I already mentioned that I found this experience appropriate..."

maybe you meant "inappropriate"?

[Tacenda]

51 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yesterday, Sister Gui was standing outside her kindergarten class after school when a teacher new to the school this year came up to her and started a conversation. "I can tell you are a Mormon," she said. "What? How can you tell?" "By the way you dress, of course," was the reply. Sister Gui is mystified. Most teachers in the school (only 2 are male) are pretty casual in their dress, but she chooses to be more "professional," if I am allowed to use that term and it does not necessarily have to do with modesty, although that is a criteria she uses to select all her clothing. 

She asked again how the lady could tell, and the response was, "I just know."

Curious.

I don't want to take away from what you've said, but there are garment lines. Of course your wife may not have had clothing that revealed that. In my daily walk, I see garment lines all the time. 

I'm really impressed your wife is a kindergarten teacher, I'm sure she's super tired by the end of her day. I sub in kindergarten and it's a lot of work, I'm exhausted by the end of the day. 

Does she teach two classes a day? Or is it all day with one class. I give her a lot of credit though!

[Bernard Gui]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't want to take away from what you've said, but there are garment lines. Of course your wife may not have had clothing that revealed that. In my daily walk, I see garment lines all the time. 

I'm really impressed your wife is a kindergarten teacher, I'm sure she's super tired by the end of her day. I sub in kindergarten and it's a lot of work, I'm exhausted by the end of the day. 

Does she teach two classes a day? Or is it all day with one class. I give her a lot of credit though!

No, there were no garment lines. Just slacks, a blouse, and sweater. I doubt anyone outside of Utah or maybe ex-mormons or anti-mormons well-versed in their craft would even know about them. She is indeed pooped, but she is having the time of her life. She loves it. All-day kindergarten....which is a horrible idea.

[Tacenda]

This is a gentlemen that use to be in my ward. I wonder what any of you think of this program. If you click on the link, you'll see how many times and places there are meetings. It appears to be a big problem in our culture. It makes me wonder if some of it can be brought on by going overboard on what some think is porn. I don't know, but have heard it said, that if the church or family focus too much on it, it can backfire. Of course I have no proof since I haven't dealt with this before. Just wonder about it. Maybe our very own counselor BlueDreams can chime in, hint hint.  

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[BlueDreams]

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

"I already mentioned that I found this experience appropriate..."

maybe you meant "inappropriate"?

Sorry, yes I meant that. I would edit it but I'm starting to get really dizzy (nothing serious). 

[Calm]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I'm cool.

You are.

[Avatar4321]

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 2:58 PM, Bernard Gui said:

It's hard to take this seriously. You couldn't wear your skimpy shorts to class because the teacher and the assistant principal would send you home post haste to dress appropriately for class.

He chose to share his feelings? Crivens. With the world or with the guidance counselor?
 

Notice the inflammatory word "complained." What do you know about his "complaint?" The purpose of dress codes is to prevent distraction. He was concerned about an issue specifically identified in the dress code. His concerns deserved fair consideration and confidentiality. School personnel are to address any student or parent issue appropriately. This was not handled appropriately. The boy is not a future rapist.

Good grief.

how does promoting modesty shame anyone? I've never seen anyone shamed in the church for what they've chosen to wear ?

btw shame is a symptom of pride. Seems like a bigger problem exists then the modesty issue.

[Bernard Gui]

22 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

how does promoting modesty shame anyone? I've never seen anyone shamed in the church for what they've chosen to wear ?

btw shame is a symptom of pride. Seems like a bigger problem exists then the modesty issue.

How does promoting modesty create an atmosphere where Mormon men think they can abuse women at well....a pervasive "rape culture?"

We've spent a lot of time and bandwidth asking, but there certainly is no consensus. Hopefully everyone agrees women don't ask for or deserve it. There is no agreement on what responsibilities we all have, though.

I'm sure there is someone reading who has had experience with a zealous priesthood leader who shames women and girls. I would hope to think he is a minority of 1. Maybe 2. It can also depend on what you think shame feels like. When our pooch Caninotto poops in the house, we used to say, "Shame, shame, shame" and do all those other things dog owners do, but the poor girl didn't know what shame meant, only that we were mad at her. She probably learned not to do it because she sensed our anger and tone of voice. Perhaps that is what would be bad about confronting someone immodestly dressed. I've never seen our doggy approach, nor have I ever used it in that situation. Perhaps shame is felt because the person was called out in a manner that embarrassed her in front of her friends or in an angry personal interview. I know when I am called out for something I'm doing wrong my initial reaction is blame the person calling me out and strike back with denial or defiance. Later I could say I felt ashamed, but maybe it was anger that caused my reaction.

This is what makes making dress codes so very difficult. Everyone has their own version of what it should be and how it should be enforced, and no one likes being the subject of scrutiny. 

I agree that pride has a whole lot to do with it, but what do I know?

 

[Calm]

Sister Jean Bingham:. 'The greatest form of charity may be to withhold judgment.'

[Rain]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I find it curious that no one (as far as I remember) has replied to my pointing out these scriptures several times which are the basis, IMHO, for all the hoopla surrounding the MMM (Mormon Modesty Miasma). Are these irrelevant? Are they misinterpreted or misapplied? Nobody noticed them? Are the antiquated and out of touch? Not really His teachings? They seem to put the responsibility directly and exclusively on the beholder, but just for men, not women? Just suggestions? How to put them into practice? Anything?

 

I didn't reply to it because I don't feel it has anything to do with modesty. It has to do with lust (illicit sexual desire or appetite; lecherousness)  and adultery. It doesn't even have to do with natural, biological reactions. 

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

No, there were no garment lines. Just slacks, a blouse, and sweater. I doubt anyone outside of Utah or maybe ex-mormons or anti-mormons well-versed in their craft would even know about them. She is indeed pooped, but she is having the time of her life. She loves it. All-day kindergarten....which is a horrible idea.

You might be surprised how many know about garment lines. 

-------

There is nothing wrong with being modest. Being modest does not mean you have a rape culture, but trying to make people be modest so that others won't choose to sin might be part of rape culture. Notice I said, "choose to sin". I said it because a teen boy having a natural sexual responce is not the same as a teen boy choosing to lust or have an illicit sexual desire. 

We "teach them correct principles" (and doctrine), "and they govern themselves" (through application).  When we teach both men and women doctrines concering our bodies and life here on earth AND they understand it men will not lust after women because they understand a woman's relation to God and the creation she is. She will not be porn to him. She will be art.  And women who understand their relationship with God will dress appropriately because they know who they are and He is near. ETA: And vice versa with the men and women. 

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

33 minutes ago, Rain said:

We "teach them correct principles" (and doctrine), "and they govern themselves" (through application).  When we teach both men and women doctrines concering our bodies and life here on earth AND they understand it men will not lust after women because they understand a woman's relation to God and the creation she is. She will not be porn to him. She will be art.  And women who understand their relationship with God will dress appropriately because they know He is near. 

 

Can and should parents "make" their kids be modest? Teach them, and let them govern themselves. But what happens when they choose not to govern themselves? We make dress codes and check them at the stake youth dance, that's what we do.

It's in our nature. We are shedding the natural man, but he likes to fight for survival and keeps popping up like a zombie.

"....when they know He is near" or when they know his Prophet is near, but not so much when just the deacon is near.  The former have the "pure thoughts" down pat, but the latter is still working on it. Wouldn't it be nice if they would choose to make it a little easier for the urchin?

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Should parents "make" their kids be modest? Teach them, and let them govern themselves. But what happens when they choose not to govern themselves? We make dress codes and check them at the stake youth dance, that's what we do.

It's in our nature. We are shedding the natural man, but he likes to fight for survival and keeps popping up like a zombie.

"....when they know He is near" or when they know his Prophet is near, but not so much when just the deacon is near.

 

Your sarcasm is getting the best of you.

No, you should not "make" your children be modest. That would be taking a tip from the book "Agency and how to Enforce it". 

However, that does not mean they get to choose how they dress without consequences. I don't have to buy something for my child that I consider immodest. I don't have to let you in to my dance if you choose something against the rules I set up. However, if they understand the doctrine they will never wear something inappropriate even when I am not paying for it and it's not my party.

Teaching modesty without the doctrine is like teaching someone to put on a bandaid without teaching good washing and healing methods for the wound under the bandaid.

You added a "when" and took out a "because" in my quote. A woman who understands her relationship with God will dress appropriately at all times. She will NOT dress differently for a deacon or any other person.