Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Bernard Gui]

On another thread, a poster pointed out this fatuous story as evidence of rape culture in Utah.... and by implication in the Church.

http://fox13now.com/2016/09/12/timpview-high-cheerleaders-rally-in-defense-of-uniforms-after-complaint/

"I feel like this obsession with female modesty is just feeding into the rape culture that is far too prevalent in the area."

This has nothing to do with "rape culture."

Quote

"'One guy can't control 44 girls on our team,' Rozier said."

Seriously? There are many times one person's complaint causes hardship for others. Roe v. Wade comes to mind. As did the 2 Wiccans who complained to our school board about the stereotype Halloween witches and now Halloween is called Harvest Festival with nothing associated with Halloween allowed in the schools including pumpkins. And our Christmas Concerts are now called Winter Concerts where the music teachers have to count the "holiday" songs and justify the educational use of carols because someone complained. And there are dozens of examples on public school and college campuses where an individual or small group claims offense at something or someone and it is banned. Transgender locker rooms anyone? Talk about one person trumping everyone's rights!

Quote

"'They are sexualizing a cheerleading uniform and I just think it's disgusting, they are objectifying these girls,' Wood wrote."

Who is objectifying the women? Everyone knows professional and most college cheerleaders' uniforms are designed for only one purpose.... to motivate the team to play harder and win the game, of course. 

And talk about double standards, moral ambiguity, confusion, objectifying women, hypocrisy, and general nuttiness.... On the same web page as this goofy article about cheerleaders is the story of the "hottest" elementary teacher in America. Crivens!

Does emphasis on modesty create a rape culture among Mormons?

[bcuzbcuz]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

On another thread, a poster pointed out this fatuous story as evidence of rape culture in Utah.... and by implication in the Church.

http://fox13now.com/2016/09/12/timpview-high-cheerleaders-rally-in-defense-of-uniforms-after-complaint/

"I feel like this obsession with female modesty is just feeding into the rape culture that is far too prevalent in the area."

This has nothing to do with "rape culture."

Seriously? There are many times one person's complaint causes hardship for others. Roe v. Wade comes to mind. As did the 2 Wiccans who complained to our school board about the stereotype Halloween witches and now Halloween is called Harvest Festival with nothing associated with Halloween allowed in the schools including pumpkins. And our Christmas Concerts are now called Winter Concerts where the music teachers have to count the "holiday" songs and justify the educational use of carols because someone complained. And there are dozens of examples on public school and college campuses where an individual or small group claims offense at something or someone and it is banned. Transgender locker rooms anyone? Talk about one person trumping everyone's rights!

Who is objectifying the women? Everyone knows professional and most college cheerleaders' uniforms are designed for only one purpose.... to motivate the team to play harder and win the game, of course. 

And talk about double standards, moral ambiguity, confusion, objectifying women, hypocrisy, and general nuttiness.... On the same web page as this goofy article about cheerleaders is the story of the "hottest" elementary teacher in America. Crivens!

Does emphasis on modesty create a rape culture among Mormons?

Who is it that is saying, "Everyone knows professional and most college cheerleaders´ uniforms are designed for only one purpose....to motivate the team to play harder and win the game of course."?

Whoever it is has neither gone to a professional game nor college game with their eyes open. Just google cheerleader and look for yourself

[Rain]

It would be interesting to know more of the story.  I'm getting from this that the school never had any plans to ban the uniforms in class,  that they don't know who it was complained and that cheerleaders have been told that yes,  they can wear them by the principal.  So did the cheerleaders misunderstand the coach? Did the coach misunderstand administration? 

[sheilauk]

Why are they wearing the uniforms in class?  Do the players do that?   And have they ever asked themselves why they are in short skirts?  

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, sheilauk said:

Why are they wearing the uniforms in class?  Do the players do that?   And have they ever asked themselves why they are in short skirts?  

Why do they wear swimming suits on the swim team? Because it's easier to perform in them, just like the cheerleaders. Why did the basketball players wear short shorts back in the day? There are reasons for it, but they could take it to another level and become the Dallas cheerleaders I guess. 

Bernard surely knows there is a problem with anyone in the church warning women not to dress a certain way so that the boys or young men won't have bad thoughts.

Isn't that giving someone a way to try to justify rape in some way? Just like this stupid judge in Canada's mindset, thinking it was the young woman's fault.  http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/canadian-judge-robin-camp-could-lose-job-over-shocking-comments-to-alleged-rape-victim/news-story/99453728ec49e91285ce809e5c4a2820

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Why do they wear swimming suits on the swim team? Because it's easier to perform in them, just like the cheerleaders. Why did the basketball players wear short shorts back in the day? There are reasons for it, but they could take it to another level and become the Dallas cheerleaders I guess. 

Bernard surely knows there is a problem with anyone in the church warning women not to dress a certain way so that the boys or young men won't have bad thoughts.

Isn't that giving someone a way to try to justify rape in some way? Just like this stupid judge in Canada's mindset, thinking it was the young woman's fault.  http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/canadian-judge-robin-camp-could-lose-job-over-shocking-comments-to-alleged-rape-victim/news-story/99453728ec49e91285ce809e5c4a2820

But if the swimmers tried to wear their swimsuits and speedos to class, how far do you think that would get?  The idea that the cheerleaders uniforms need to be short so they can perform really doesn't have anything to do with them wearing them in class, right?

[bluebell]

Does emphasis on modesty create a culture where rape is pervasive and normalized?  I don't think so.  An over emphasis on modesty has it's own problems, but i don't think creating rape culture is one of them.

[thesometimesaint]

The new college/professional sport team cheerleaders uniform.

SEE https://www.google.com/search?q=burka&tbm=isch&imgil=PV74TIrZKU5nhM%3A%3BObCnfllQrXhr5M%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fkafircrusaders.wordpress.com%252Ftag%252Fburka%252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=PV74TIrZKU5nhM%3A%2CObCnfllQrXhr5M%2C_&usg=__EJyFIJFeL6_r19OEEm5FR_5NbeI%3D&biw=1366&bih=659&ved=0ahUKEwiti5CD0pHPAhUT0IMKHUcYAWMQyjcIOA&ei=47faV-2NApOgjwTHsISYBg#imgrc=PV74TIrZKU5nhM%3A

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Why do they wear swimming suits on the swim team? Because it's easier to perform in them, just like the cheerleaders.

Am I to understand that you are in favor of wearing swimming suits to class?

[bcuzbcuz]

36 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But if the swimmers tried to wear their swimsuits and speedos to class, how far do you think that would get?  The idea that the cheerleaders uniforms need to be short so they can perform really doesn't have anything to do with them wearing them in class, right?

Cheerleaders uniforms need to be short: so they can perform?

Naah, I don´t think so.

Cheerleaders couldn´t do their job....without showing as much of their legs as possible...because.....

How come the male cheerleaders wear long legged gym pants? 

[stemelbow]

Boys simply need to learn to deal with the opposite sex.  Complaining of girls outfits because of your own impure thoughts is completely backwards. 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Cheerleaders uniforms need to be short: so they can perform?

Naah, I don´t think so.

Cheerleaders couldn´t do their job....without showing as much of their legs as possible...because.....

How come the male cheerleaders wear long legged gym pants? 

I agree.  That wasn't the point of my post though. (But to be fair, the male cheerleaders don't perform the same stunts as the female cheerleaders so there could be a legitimate reason the uniforms are different, i haven't studied it).

[stemelbow]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  That wasn't the point of my post though. (But to be fair, the male cheerleaders don't perform the same stunts as the female cheerleaders so there could be a legitimate reason the uniforms are different, i haven't studied it).

The reason is women in our culture are objectified in a way that men are not.  But we're here now and there's really no going back.  We have to deal with life as it is.  And trying to make girls feel bad because of how they dress, particularly when their dress is standard for a particular job, is just plain stupid. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The reason is women in our culture are objectified in a way that men are not.  But we're here now and there's really no going back.  We have to deal with life as it is.  And trying to make girls feel bad because of how they dress, particularly when their dress is standard for a particular job, is just plain stupid. 

I agree.

But if the reason that female cheerleader uniforms are so short is because female cheerleaders should be objectified in ways male cheerleaders shouldn't, shouldn't every feminist in the country be fighting diligently to change the uniform to something that doesn't objectify women?

[Jeanne]

In my high school days..cheerleaders always wore uniform on game day.. IMO this is stupid.  Maybe there is a problem..but not with the uniform..why aren't the heads of young men concentrating on a game..duh. 

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Who is it that is saying, "Everyone knows professional and most college cheerleaders´ uniforms are designed for only one purpose....to motivate the team to play harder and win the game of course."?

Whoever it is has neither gone to a professional game nor college game with their eyes open. Just google cheerleader and look for yourself

Sarcasm doesn't always come through. What could be more objectifying than cheerleading? Granted, participants do so of their own free will, and more power to the, but pretending it's not sexualized is inane. So, a guy supposedly objected to the uniforms and he is the misogynist "rape cultured" Mormon ?

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

It would be interesting to know more of the story.  I'm getting from this that the school never had any plans to ban the uniforms in class,  that they don't know who it was complained and that cheerleaders have been told that yes,  they can wear them by the principal.  So did the cheerleaders misunderstand the coach? Did the coach misunderstand administration? 

That doesn't matter. The point of the article is that this is evidence of a "rape culture" in Utah and the Church. Advocating for modesty proves you are a rapist?

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, sheilauk said:

Why are they wearing the uniforms in class?  Do the players do that?   And have they ever asked themselves why they are in short skirts?  

In the high school where I taught, football players and cheerleaders wore their uniforms on game days. The cheerleader costume style would have been a violation of our dress code if worn by a non-cheerleader.

[stemelbow]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.

But if the reason that female cheerleader uniforms are so short is because female cheerleaders should be objectified in ways male cheerleaders shouldn't, shouldn't every feminist in the country be fighting diligently to change the uniform to something that doesn't objectify women?

No.  Every feminist should do what he/she thinks is best.   Not every fight is worth waging.  Cheerleader outfits are too much the norm these days.  I don't think a win to change the uniform will bring about a positive effect.  Women cheering while wearing full body suits will still be objectified. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

But if the swimmers tried to wear their swimsuits and speedos to class, how far do you think that would get?  The idea that the cheerleaders uniforms need to be short so they can perform really doesn't have anything to do with them wearing them in class, right?

I was thinking about this this morning.  Thinking about when I was in high school and now with kids just out of high school and in high school.  Most of the sports and even band,  and other groups do dress differently on competition days during school, but cheerleaders are the only ones that I know of that wear their uniforms. The rest dress up in button up and ties or skirts etc. Not always Sunday best, but more formal than normal.  ETA: the golf team might have worn their shirts in my high school now that I think about it. 

It's interesting too because some of these schools have dress codes that haven't allowed short skirts/shorts if it wasn't for the wearing of them on game day as part of the cheerleading team thing. 

Since the school IS allowing the cheerleaders to wear the uniform I still think there is something else going on,  especially since one of these women was interviewed about it for Mormon Stories.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Why do they wear swimming suits on the swim team? Because it's easier to perform in them, just like the cheerleaders. Why did the basketball players wear short shorts back in the day? There are reasons for it, but they could take it to another level and become the Dallas cheerleaders I guess. 

Bernard surely knows there is a problem with anyone in the church warning women not to dress a certain way so that the boys or young men won't have bad thoughts.

Isn't that giving someone a way to try to justify rape in some way? Just like this stupid judge in Canada's mindset, thinking it was the young woman's fault.  http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/canadian-judge-robin-camp-could-lose-job-over-shocking-comments-to-alleged-rape-victim/news-story/99453728ec49e91285ce809e5c4a2820

A lesson on modesty encourages rape? So the question becomes, is there such a thing as modesty, and if there is, why? If you were giving a lesson on modesty, what reasons would you give the young women in favor of being modest in their dress? BTW, I believe young men should also dress modestly. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

I was thinking about this this morning.  Thinking about when I was in high school and now with kids just out of high school and in high school.  Most of the sports and even band,  and other groups do dress differently on competition days during school, but cheerleaders are the only ones that I know of that wear their uniforms. The rest dress up in button up and ties or skirts etc. Not always Sunday best, but more formal than normal.  

It's interesting too because some of these schools have dress codes that haven't allowed short skirts/shorts if it wasn't for the wearing of them on game day as part of the cheerleading team thing. 

Since the school IS allowing the cheerleaders to wear the uniform I still think there is something else going on,  especially since one of these women was interviewed about it for Mormon Stories.

My son's a senior in high school and I'd maintain after having had many of his friends over and otherwise being involved that the cheerleader uniform is no more provocative than many clothes the young women wear.  There's nothing going on.  The article said one of the girl's older sisters posted it on her facebook mormonstories feed, or however facebook works.  These girls want to wear their uniforms because to them it is tradition, i'd wager.  and to say it's a big deal for them to wear them probably offends them. 

Not much more than that. 

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That doesn't matter. The point of the article is that this is evidence of a "rape" culture in Utah and the Church. Advocating for modesty proves you are a rapist.

The reason I felt it matters is that I think it is a cry to criticize verses that it is really thought of that way.  

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

But if the swimmers tried to wear their swimsuits and speedos to class, how far do you think that would get?  The idea that the cheerleaders uniforms need to be short so they can perform really doesn't have anything to do with them wearing them in class, right?

Why would wearing their swimsuits to class be a problem? 

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

A lesson on modesty encourages rape? So the question becomes, is there such a thing as modesty, and if there is, why? If you were giving a lesson on modesty, what reasons would you give the young women in favor of being modest in their dress? BTW, I believe young men should also dress modestly. 

I think you make a fair point.  We should stop throwing out the word rape in any context we can.  Rape culture has been used to describe men talking down to women, or in this case.  I think it's unhelpful.