bsjkki Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: What makes clothing "appropriate?" Why would something in one situation not be appropriate in another? What would be inappropriate about wearing your bathing suit to church or school? What assumptions are you making? Whatever their mother decides is appropriate is appropriate. I am all powerful. I even send my kids to young womens right after athletics in their sport shorts. I have turned into a rebellious soul.
Bernard Gui Posted September 15, 2016 Author Posted September 15, 2016 34 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Clothes really don't matter..(unless extreme)...NFL players are fullly clothed..but when they are in a huddle...I look at their buns..shoot me. But if a man says what you just said about a group of women, he is part of the "rape culture." Seems like a double standard to me. 3
Tacenda Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 8 minutes ago, Danzo said: That quote is a really good way of saying nothing factual at all. But accuses the "local Mormon communities" of doing something "unknown", but probably terrible! Do you live in a Mormon community? Doesn't sound like it, if you're from Portland but I guess it's possible. I live in a very Mormon community. For example, I remember a conversation with a mother and daughter and her daughter was nearly in tears because they hadn't been to the store to get a different swimsuit for the ward swim party. She was so worried that her suit might be immodest. Here she was preteen!! So visibly upset that she wasn't modest enough.
Danzo Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 I am not comfortable with the term "rape culture" as it applies to modesty. Are people saying that teaching modesty (Even in silly and extreme ways) causes rape? That there are people who were raped, but wouldn't have been if they weren't taught to dress modestly?
Jeanne Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: But if a man says what you just said about a group of women, he is part of the "rape culture." Seems like a double standard to me. And my point..the last thing I want to do is rape any one of these men.
Bernard Gui Posted September 15, 2016 Author Posted September 15, 2016 34 minutes ago, Rain said: There is no doctrine of modesty. Elder Bednar says doctrine: So if a wise teacher sees that modesty is a problem he/she would study and pray to figure out what doctrine the students are not understanding. Give a lesson on that or those doctrines, help the students understand the doctrines and then help the students understand principles that go with it ( "a doctrinally based guideline for the righteous exercise of moral agency...Correct principles always are based upon and arise from doctrines, do not change and answer the question of 'what?'") and then help the students discover how to apply the doctrines and principles on their own ("Applications are the actual behaviors, action steps, practices, or procedures by which gospel doctrines and principles are enacted in our lives...Applications answer the question of "how".") In other words modestly is an application of doctrines such as God being our Father. There are others that coupld apply in any given situation. It depends upon the person. Why do we emphasize it? Because lack of it is a symptom and we don't think out of the box to realize it is only a symptom of not understanding a doctrine. We think that if we fix the symptom then things will be ok. This appears to be a cop-out to me, nit-picking words, no offense intended. What doctrines would you think include the "practice" or "principle" "action" "application" of modesty? Lack of modesty is a symptom of what? Being modest in dress is a symptom of what? It appears wanting modesty is advocating "rape culture." 1
bluebell Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Then why should they dress modestly? As I said before, Rain already provided some good reasons.
Tacenda Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: But if a man says what you just said about a group of women, he is part of the "rape culture." Seems like a double standard to me. Do women rape men?
bluebell Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 Just now, Bernard Gui said: It appears wanting modesty is advocating "rape culture." There are a lot of people on this thread that have specifically said that modesty does not equal rape culture (myself included). So when you say, 'it appears', who do you believe it appears to? Rain?
BlueDreams Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 28 minutes ago, bsjkki said: This article has a bit more information. http://www.people.com/article/utah-cheerleaders-body-shamed and this one http://www.inquisitr.com/3505653/utah-high-school-cheerleaders-squad-reportedly-told-not-to-wear-uniforms-because-a-boy-had-impure-thoughts/ Do you think this quote has merit? I don't think so--" While the Utah high school cheerleaders have unequivocal permission to continue wearing their uniforms to class as per tradition, it is unknown what backlash they may face in their local Mormon communities for coming forward with their story." Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/3505653/utah-high-school-cheerleaders-squad-reportedly-told-not-to-wear-uniforms-because-a-boy-had-impure-thoughts/#XB93fGDYmrf7K06X.99 This complaint should have been dismissed and should not have required a meeting. Possibly, miscommunication took place but the girls did not wear their uniforms to school one day and they would not have done that if they were not told not to wear their uniforms. That does help. But no, that quote doesn't have much merit. All of these pieces seem sensationalistic....trying to drum up a story where there isn't much of one. It's also ironic, because they state Mormon communities may have a prob with this....but the Mormon community probably makes up a huge chunk of the school district and are part of the school board. If they really had a problem, this would have been addressed long before this piece. It sounds like a big misunderstanding, it probably shouldn't have fond its way in a meeting, and my guess is that because this was a school counselor and a parent spearheading the complaint (maybe) neither really have much understanding about learning to control sex desires/potential problems with porn (I'd bet money he had one....but there I go, making fake news based off of heresay and assumption...). With luv, BD 4
BlueDreams Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Do women rape men? Yes. Just not as commonly and usually (not always) with an age disparity of adult-child. Without any details, I know a man who was raped by a woman as an adult. With luv, BD Edited September 15, 2016 by BlueDreams 1
Jeanne Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) It really is this big mountain made out of a mole hill. To me this is just silly and has nothing to do with rape culture. I give young people more credit than that. (Both male and female) Edited September 15, 2016 by Jeanne 1
cinepro Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 7 hours ago, sheilauk said: Why are they wearing the uniforms in class? Do the players do that? And have they ever asked themselves why they are in short skirts? It hasn't always been thus... 1
Bernard Gui Posted September 15, 2016 Author Posted September 15, 2016 36 minutes ago, bsjkki said: This article has a bit more information. http://www.people.com/article/utah-cheerleaders-body-shamed and this one http://www.inquisitr.com/3505653/utah-high-school-cheerleaders-squad-reportedly-told-not-to-wear-uniforms-because-a-boy-had-impure-thoughts/ Do you think this quote has merit? I don't think so--" While the Utah high school cheerleaders have unequivocal permission to continue wearing their uniforms to class as per tradition, it is unknown what backlash they may face in their local Mormon communities for coming forward with their story." Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/3505653/utah-high-school-cheerleaders-squad-reportedly-told-not-to-wear-uniforms-because-a-boy-had-impure-thoughts/#XB93fGDYmrf7K06X.99 This complaint should have been dismissed and should not have required a meeting. Possibly, miscommunication took place but the girls did not wear their uniforms to school one day and they would not have done that if they were not told not to wear their uniforms. So, a young man who may have problems with pornography or other disfunction talks with a school counselor, supposedly in confidence, and reports what he perceives as micro aggressions against his feelings from the cheerleaders wearing their short skirts in class. The counselor takes his plight to an administrator who wrings his hands, as administrators are want to do, communications get messed up, and Kate Kelly is brought out from her secluded woman cave to pontificate on the evils of Utah Mormon culture, or lack thereof. And instead of micro aggression, the boy is piled upon with macro aggression in the print and social media. Then the girls get their knickers in a knot over being told how to dress by one boy who probably will become a rapist if he is not reprogrammed. Wonderful. Let's say the roles were reversed, and one girl was offended by the guys wearing their tight baseball uniforms to class. Would we be reading this story? Would it be treated the same way? Who are the sexists here? Here's the money quote: Quote At least one member of the Utah high school squad likened the request to change their wardrobe to appease the sensibilities of a boy and to help him control his so-called “impure thoughts” to the rape culture so prevalent at colleges and universities in the U.S. One such university that has recently been embroiled in college rape culture drama is Brigham Young University, ironically located in the same Utah city as Timpview High SchoolRead more at http://www.inquisitr.com/3505653/utah-high-school-cheerleaders-squad-reportedly-told-not-to-wear-uniforms-because-a-boy-had-impure-thoughts/#q2sbShJFYQ0q55sS.99 2
stemelbow Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, cinepro said: It hasn't always been thus... I read my grandpa's journal and it was full of impure thoughts as a teenager, wherein he talks about Betsy in her cheerleader uniform. if he was half the man that this kid from Provo was, he'd have put a stop to that trend of wearing their uniforms to school long ago. Says he, "I don't need to see the bottom parts of her calves while I'm trying to figure out my arithmetic". He dropped out and played the sax in a band after such nonsense distracted him from passing. He said, "Go Tigers!" the day after he dropped out. hah hah...his sense of humor lives on. Edited September 15, 2016 by stemelbow
Danzo Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 18 minutes ago, bluebell said: I really don't know. I don't know how to teach girls that they can help boys keep their thoughts clean without also teaching them that if they don't help boys keep their thoughts clean they are bad. Its quite an advanced topic, and there is a great deal of maturity required to understand In the church we teach that 1. all men are accountable for their own sins and not for adam's (or Danzos, or some girl who didn't dress right's) Sins. 2. We are our brother's keeper and that we are responsible for looking out for each other. How do we reconcile the two? 1
Bernard Gui Posted September 15, 2016 Author Posted September 15, 2016 45 minutes ago, bluebell said: This. It's exhausting, as a woman, trying not to ever be too sexually pleasing in view of a male. And, more importantly, it's impossible. Unless you purposefully try not to look good or attractive there is no way to stop it. You never know what the man next to you is into or what body part they care about most (hello, even having attractive feet can be too much for some guys!). I know of a guy who can't look at any woman in the eye right now because he's actively trying not to have sexual thoughts about anyone but his wife and seeing women in any kind of clothes leads to him fantasizing about them inappropriately. It's messed up enough that we women have to deal with guys like that out there walking among us. Don't ask my daughter or my sister or me to worry about it being our fault. I'm treading in deep dangerous waters here, but isn't that the nature of male sexuality? Have you read Wendy Shalit's A Return to Modesty? What do you think of it? Sister Gui thinks it's the cat's meow. I trust Sister Gui's opinion on most everything. http://www.wendyshalit.com
Danzo Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 21 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Do women rape men? yes
Bernard Gui Posted September 15, 2016 Author Posted September 15, 2016 27 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Whatever their mother decides is appropriate is appropriate. I am all powerful. I even send my kids to young womens right after athletics in their sport shorts. I have turned into a rebellious soul. That seems more cynical than rebellious. You send them? Does this foster unity or chaos?
Danzo Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 25 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Do you live in a Mormon community? Doesn't sound like it, if you're from Portland but I guess it's possible. I live in a very Mormon community. For example, I remember a conversation with a mother and daughter and her daughter was nearly in tears because they hadn't been to the store to get a different swimsuit for the ward swim party. She was so worried that her suit might be immodest. Here she was preteen!! So visibly upset that she wasn't modest enough. Portland is not a Mormon community (I don't live in the city, but close enough). I think it would be the greatest thing if all we had to worry about is people who are upset about not being modest enough.
Jeanne Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 How do we reconcile??? Quit wearing tight jeans guys...how does that make you feel?? Button up those shirts to the neck...how does that make you feel?? You're driving women to rape and we have unclean thoughts...how doe we reconcile with this???? It seems that the big question and answers...always belongs to the female.
Bernard Gui Posted September 15, 2016 Author Posted September 15, 2016 23 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Do women rape men? I don't know. Do they? Whether they do or not, there appears to be a double standard.
Bernard Gui Posted September 15, 2016 Author Posted September 15, 2016 25 minutes ago, bluebell said: As I said before, Rain already provided some good reasons. What are some of them that you think are good?
Jeanne Posted September 15, 2016 Posted September 15, 2016 9 minutes ago, cinepro said: It hasn't always been thus... I love this picture!!!!
Bernard Gui Posted September 15, 2016 Author Posted September 15, 2016 28 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Do you live in a Mormon community? Doesn't sound like it, if you're from Portland but I guess it's possible. I live in a very Mormon community. For example, I remember a conversation with a mother and daughter and her daughter was nearly in tears because they hadn't been to the store to get a different swimsuit for the ward swim party. She was so worried that her suit might be immodest. Here she was preteen!! So visibly upset that she wasn't modest enough. Not only Mormons are concerned about modesty. http://www.wendyshalit.com
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