Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Boys simply need to learn to deal with the opposite sex.  Complaining of girls outfits because of your own impure thoughts is completely backwards. 

Is there such a thing as modesty? If so, what is it and why should it be promoted? Or maybe it shouldn't?

[Bernard Gui]

44 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The reason is women in our culture are objectified in a way that men are not.  But we're here now and there's really no going back.  We have to deal with life as it is.  And trying to make girls feel bad because of how they dress, particularly when their dress is standard for a particular job, is just plain stupid. 

One doesn't have to make girls feel bad about dressing modestly. The question is, does teaching modesty create a "rape culture?"

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

My son's a senior in high school and I'd maintain after having had many of his friends over and otherwise being involved that the cheerleader uniform is no more provocative than many clothes the young women wear.  There's nothing going on.  The article said one of the girl's older sisters posted it on her facebook mormonstories feed, or however facebook works.  These girls want to wear their uniforms because to them it is tradition, i'd wager.  and to say it's a big deal for them to wear them probably offends them. 

Not much more than that. 

Oh, I agree that the uniforms are not the provacative clothes many schools allow. I was just saying that some (rare) schools don't allow those clothes,  but still allow the cheerleaders to wear clothes against dress code.

And I know it is tradition. The girls CAN wear their uniform to school according to the principal of the school.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is there such a thing as modesty? If so, what is it and why should it be promoted? Or maybe it shouldn't?

In our time and society it's hard to say any more.  Is it immodest to wear a swimming trunks to go swimming?  I guess not.  is it immodest to wear the same trunks to work to cut men's hair?  I guess so.  What's the difference?  Well unspoken rules in society, I suppose.  We're just defining and redefining modesty and immodesty all the time.  Maybe someday it'll be such the norm for women to wear swimming trunks to cut hair it won't be consider an immodest business practice anymore. 

[Rain]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

One doesn't have to make girls feel bad about dressing modestly. The question is, does teaching modesty create a "rape culture?"

Teaching modesty does not create it,  but how you teach it may contribute to it.  

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

No.  Every feminist should do what he/she thinks is best.   Not every fight is worth waging.  Cheerleader outfits are too much the norm these days.  I don't think a win to change the uniform will bring about a positive effect.  Women cheering while wearing full body suits will still be objectified. 

But that is not the point of this thread. Does advocating for modesty create a "rape culture?"

"I feel like this obsession with female modesty is just feeding into the rape culture that is far too prevalent in the area."

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 minutes ago, Rain said:

Oh, I agree that the uniforms are not the provacative clothes many schools allow. I was just saying that some (rare) schools don't allow those clothes,  but still allow the cheerleaders to wear clothes against dress code.

And I know it is tradition. The girls CAN wear their uniform to school according to the principal of the school.

In my schools (junior and senior high schools), an outfit in the style of the cheerleaders' uniforms worn by a non-cheerleader would be a violation of the dress code. Why the double standard? Are dress codes an evidence of "rape culture?"

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, Rain said:

I was thinking about this this morning.  Thinking about when I was in high school and now with kids just out of high school and in high school.  Most of the sports and even band,  and other groups do dress differently on competition days during school, but cheerleaders are the only ones that I know of that wear their uniforms. The rest dress up in button up and ties or skirts etc. Not always Sunday best, but more formal than normal.  ETA: the golf team might have worn their shirts in my high school now that I think about it. 

It's interesting too because some of these schools have dress codes that haven't allowed short skirts/shorts if it wasn't for the wearing of them on game day as part of the cheerleading team thing. 

Since the school IS allowing the cheerleaders to wear the uniform I still think there is something else going on,  especially since one of these women was interviewed about it for Mormon Stories.

"They are sexualizing a cheerleading uniform and I just think it's disgusting, they are objectifying these girls."

Who is objectifying the girls? 

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, Rain said:

Teaching modesty does not create it,  but how you teach it may contribute to it.  

If you were to teach a lesson to young women on modesty, what reasons would you give to promote it? What would you say to young men that would not contribute to their proclivity towards rape (as implied in the article)?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

In our time and society it's hard to say any more.  Is it immodest to wear a swimming trunks to go swimming?  I guess not.  is it immodest to wear the same trunks to work to cut men's hair?  I guess so.  What's the difference?  Well unspoken rules in society, I suppose.  We're just defining and redefining modesty and immodesty all the time.  Maybe someday it'll be such the norm for women to wear swimming trunks to cut hair it won't be consider an immodest business practice anymore. 

In Seattle we have these little coffee shacks with bikini-clad coffee babes serving the java. None of them advertise male servers in bikinis. I wonder why? If one protests, does that make one an advocate of "rape culture?"

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

I'm of the mind (learned this from Elders Packer and Bednar) that we help them understand doctrine first and not just teach applications.  

So I would teach it as an outcome of respect toward Heavenly Father and oneself - being a child of God who has been gifted this wonderful body.  

A principle that goes along with this is that modesty goes along with humility.  

Then I would have the youth talk about how they would apply these things as it had to do with their bodies.  Cleanliness, hair, modesty, nutition, fitness etc.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Rain

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If you were to teach a lesson to young women on modesty, what reasons would you give to promote it? What would you say to young men that would not contribute to their proclivity towards rape (as implied in the article)?

The idea that women's clothing is first and foremost about serving men's needs, regardless of how women feel about the clothes, can contribute to males eventually beginning to believe that women's bodies are first and foremost about serving men's needs, regardless of how women feel about it.

This is why it's not healthy for girls or boys to be taught that women should be modest in order to help the men around them (which does happen at church).

[bsjkki]

Do you agree with how this article on Modesty at lds.org teaches the reason to be modest?  I can see why some would suggest this promotes rape culture. https://www.lds.org/topics/modesty?lang=eng   "Our clothing expresses who we are. It sends messages about us, and it influences the way we and others act. When we are well groomed and modestly dressed, we can invite the companionship of the Spirit and exercise a good influence on those around us."

Do you agree clothing choices are responsible for how "others act."  Does attire influence those around you? Does the Mormon standard of immodest attire invite rapey thoughts in others?  Where I live, Mormons are a small minority in the high school.  Isn't it more important to teach people to be responsible for their own thoughts and actions?  My daughter had a young man tell her he thought her shorts were too short.  They were not.  A mother in my RS could not understand why a father was upset with her because she told him her daughters did not dress modestly enough and were not helping her sons have clean thoughts.  Is this appropriate?  These young men will be around girls who are not Mormon most of the time. The Strength of Youth guidelines mention "short skirts" and "short shorts."  There is no standard for how this will be interpreted.  The mother and father, in my example, most likely had a different standard of length they found appropriate.  Does how a girl dresses, influence a boy to rape her?  There is a reason so many times in court cases, how the girl was dressed was asked by the police and others to determine if a rape occurred.  I would say an over emphasize on clothing choices and modesty does objectify girls and does lead to rape culture--because it has been and continues to be an excuse for justifying rape.

Rape victims are still asked the question, "what were you wearing?" http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/student-gets-her-own-warrant-for-alleged-rapist-after-university-and-prosecutors-refuse-to-act/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369262/Women-blame-raped.html

Many advocates for BYU say the Honor Code helps prevent rape.  If a girl is not dressing to honor code standards, does that mean she is inviting rape?

Edited September 15, 2016 by bsjkki

[Bernard Gui]

58 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'm of the mind (learned this from Eldes Packer and Bednar) that we help them understand doctrine first and not just teach applications.  

So I would teach it as an outcome of respect toward Heavenly Father and oneself - being a child of God who has been gifted this wonderful body.  

A principle that goes along with this is that modesty goes along with humility.  

Then I would have the youth talk about how they would apply these things as it had to do with their bodies.  Cleanliness, hair, modesty, nutition, fitness etc.

Those are excellent points. What is the doctrine of modesty and why do we emphasize it? Is it simply that we are children of God and we respect our bodies?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

The idea that women's clothing is first and foremost about serving men's needs, regardless of how women feel about the clothes, can contribute to males eventually beginning to believe that women's bodies are first and foremost about serving men's needs, regardless of how women feel about it.

This is why it's not healthy for girls or boys to be taught that women should be modest in order to help the men around them (which does happen at church).

Then why should girls or boys be taught to be modest? What's the point of it? Does this scripture apply?

 

Quote

 

1 Corinthians 8

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

 8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

 9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

 10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

 11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

 12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

 13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

This is why it's not healthy for girls or boys to be taught that women should be modest in order to help the men around them (which does happen at church).

It appears that  you are opposed to the idea that we should help one another keep the commandments.

 

[Danzo]

41 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

 

Many advocates for BYU say the Honor Code helps prevent rape.  If a girl is not dressing to honor code standards, does that mean she is inviting rape?

I think using the word "invite" indicates a someone wanting something to happen, so I wouldn't say she is "inviting" rape.

Not following the honor code, especially in certain situation would definitely show a lack of awareness and caution and may make the rape more likely. 

In my opinion the biggest safety in following the honor code would be avoiding alcohol. From what I know Alcohol consumption is one of the bigger risk factors in rape (both by the man and the woman)

The one dresses, however certainly sends messages to people and dressing a certain way might send the wrong message towards someone who is dangerous.

does that cause the woman to "invite" the rape? No!

It might affect her risk of getting raped. (especially combined with being in the wrong places and consuming alcohol)

 

[bsjkki]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

1 Corinthians 8

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

 8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

 9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

 10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

 11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

 12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

 13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

If a boy can't handle a cheerleader uniform, he has much bigger problems and needs some counseling.  Are you suggesting women are a stumbling block for weak men? There will never be enough clothing. http://www.smh.com.au/comment/burqas-reveal-more-about-men-than-women-20141020-118mce.html  I teach my kids to dress modestly.  I do think it is good counsel but it is over emphasized and has morphed into a modesty monster.  It is stressed too much and is used to judge and sort and "other" those not of our faith.  Just like most things, I think the pendulum has swung too far on its emphasis when clearly, just a few short decades ago it was not at stressed as much. I found this article very informative. https://bycommonconsent.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/blakesley.pdf

 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by bsjkki

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

 I teach my kids to dress modestly.  I do think it is good counsel but it is over emphasized and has morphed into a modesty monster.  

Where do you live?

Where I live, I don't think anyone is over emphasizing modesty.  Getting people to were clothing at all can be a problem; there are so many nude bike rides and events and such that I tend to avoid downtown Portland. (And I am not going to post pictures). 

[bsjkki]

9 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The one dresses, however certainly sends messages to people and dressing a certain way might send the wrong message towards someone who is dangerous.

I teach my girls to where the appropriate clothes for the activity and place. I see a danger on over emphasizing Mormon modesty standards to young men and women because, as Mormons, we live in this world.  Young men and women are going to be constantly bombarded with people who do not think showing shoulders and or a mid-calf length dress is sending the message that they are 'slutty.' Wearing a cheerleader uniform on game day has been acceptable behavior at this school for years.  It is not sending the 'wrong message.' The fact that one complaint can cause this kind of uproar is ridiculous and the complaint should not have been, in anyway, taken seriously. I don't have a problem with our standards of modesty but I do think it can lead to some members making bad assumptions about people not of our faith.  

[bsjkki]

52 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Where do you live?

Where I live, I don't think anyone is over emphasizing modesty.  Getting people to were clothing at all can be a problem; there are so many nude bike rides and events and such that I tend to avoid downtown Portland. (And I am not going to post pictures). 

I actually think it is stressed too much in my local area.  I have issues with my girls not being able to wear ANY shorts to girls camp and having to wear t-shirts over their swimsuits.  On the 4th year hike, no shorts are allowed, due to "safety."  My issue is the boys do not have these same "safety" rules.  How many times on a scout hike, are the boys allowed to rip their shirts off but if a girl wore a tank top it would be scandalous. There are a plethora of images of lds scouts hiking in the woods in shorts. My two examples in my first post really did happen.  In a RS lesson, it was mentioned that girls who dress immodestly lack self esteem and don't value themselves.  For church sports, the girls were all wearing knee length shorts or sweatpants and I thought it was ridiculous.  My frustration could be because of my local area and how modesty is used to judge others.  Hopefully, many don't have these problems.  I don't look at young women from my many non-mormon friends and think their attire is "slutty" or their sleeveless dresses and fashionable attire means they are sending the wrong message.  

Thought of a few more--No flip-flops on Sunday (for some this is the only non tennis shoe they own), no-leggings to make a dress modest, and at standards night we were taught dresses should come below the knee.  It just gets tiresome.

Edited September 15, 2016 by bsjkki

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Boys simply need to learn to deal with the opposite sex.  Complaining of girls outfits because of your own impure thoughts is completely backwards. 

This is what I should have said in the first place, geez!  

[BlueDreams]

I'm really confused by this article. It reads as though a rumor ran amuck and I have no idea what actually happened. How did the coach get such a memo if the school didn't give it?...I feel there was more noise than there was facts involved in this.

as for rape culture and modesty as well as wearing cheer outfits. On the cheer outfits it sounded like it was done on game day. My guess is that it's seen as a way to rally and bring up school spirit. Which is what would differ their allowance for wearing it v another sport.

on rape culture, modesty in and of itself isn't enough. Particularly if we're used in the way it initially shows up in scripture as (non-gendered and focused less on skirt length and more in costly apparel and the likes). That said directing ones clothing based on another persons expectations or feels can be. I've heard of at least one case wear the woman raped was asked by an authority what she was wearing when this happened. And similar comments from a general populace that infers that in a sense they were "asking for it" because of how they were presented. It shifts accountability to the victim instead of the perp. It also maintains the message that women are responsible for men's thoughts. If they're uncomfortable or sexually triggered it's women's fault. This can lead to excusing rape as inevitable. Ergo maintaining rape as an event that's bound to happen. 

Personally I don't mind dress codes if they're fairly equal in standards. But women often get the bigger stick in this expectation (see here: http://time.com/3892965/everydaysexism-school-dress-codes-rape-culture/) 

I've had my moments of irritation with dress codes. My first happened as a young teen. I wore mid-thigh Jean shorts that a male teacher docked me for. I went to the office and they insisted I change into my gym shorts. Which were ironically shorter and more...uh...flattering. And increased the attention. 

Another at BYU that comes to mind. I stopped going to the pool because of it. I would wear a modest tankini/one that my own mother didn't have a problem with and I'd at times get pulled from doing lanes. I would walk out in a towel get in and mind my business. But after a time I would get pulled they would try to have me put on this heavy bag of a shirt and I would go back out and wear one of my own undershirts from the locker. On the way I would usually see one other girl who was also in violation. It brought this feeling that if I looked less appealing or noticeable in this, I probably wouldn't be chosen. I had bought another swimsuit hoping specifically that it would meet standards. It didn't. And around then I gave up. 

The other was funny. It was a passive aggressive DL elder who was irritated that I didn't agree with his vision for my area...or even pretend to. He began to nit-pick everything my companion and I violated in the white handbook...there wasn't much. So once he told me my shoes weren't  attractive enough. In the white handbook it states women's shoes should be comfortable/useful with no more than an inch heel and "attractive." Whatever that meant. 

for me I've seen that standards can be unfairly or irrationally imposed and it also irritates me that modesty is one of the few values others feel they have a right to critique others over. And the critique is usually towards women.

Lastly it's come up in therapy with a couple of my porn addict clients that I've triggered. When it first happened I found myself questioning the old montage of dressing in a way to help a brother. My clothes were attractive cuts but not ever anything I couldnt wear garments under. In general I dress as I please for appropriate settings. I've never cared if I gave others "impure thoughts." But these were people I knew and cared for. As I watched them progress, the triggers slowed, the odd distortions/beliefs  that had led to the triggers were worked out, and I realized, for some, anything could trigger them. ANYTHING. I realized that dressing to appease their problems wasn't helping but enabling their anxiety and shame. It maintains an attitude that others should cater to their "needs." Instead of helping it felt more like enabling.

these men were in no danger of being rapists (though some were sexually coercive). But I do believe that the attitude can effect others who do/have. To lessen the sense of culpability or to expect your feelings or actions are others fault. Either way it can lead women to have an unfair amount of the burden to live up to modesty standards.

 

with luv, 

BD

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by BlueDreams

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

But if the swimmers tried to wear their swimsuits and speedos to class, how far do you think that would get?  The idea that the cheerleaders uniforms need to be short so they can perform really doesn't have anything to do with them wearing them in class, right?

You've got a very good point there.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Then why should girls or boys be taught to be modest? What's the point of it? Does this scripture apply?

I think Rain had an excellent answer as to some of the 'why' of modesty that have nothing to do with teaching a girl (and a boy) that she is responsible for keeping his thoughts clean.