Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Rain]

 

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Then why should they dress modestly? 

 

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

This appears to be a cop-out to me, nit-picking words, no offense intended. What doctrines would you think include the "practice" or "principle" "action" "application" of modesty? Lack of modesty is a symptom of what? Being modest in dress is a symptom of what? It appears wanting modesty is advocating "rape culture."

Lack of modesty may be a symptom of not understanding who God is, what his relationship is to you, why you are on earth and where you are going.  Those are just some off the top of my head.  

It's not a cop out.  It's actually much more difficult, because one has to find the root cause and treat it. It is also so individual - you have to search to find the reason behind each person to be effective. And taking care of the symptom may change things here and now, but once a youth is on their own and doesn't have the "rules/applications" enforced many youth will find no inclination to follow the rules if they don't understand why they should follow them. 

Let's be clear here.  No one here thinks that wanting modesty is advocating rape culture.  I, personally, think the term is thrown out too much and is used too often as an accusation against men.  That is one of the reasons I struggled to work with both your topic and the article.  In my eyes there were 2 different things going on.

 

[Bernard Gui]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

There are a lot of people on this thread that have specifically said that modesty does not equal rape culture (myself included).  So when you say, 'it appears', who do you believe it appears to?  Rain?

To the articles that have been shared here and those who think the young man was out of place to talk to his school counselor about something he was having trouble with.  I take it you do not agree with this comment....

Quote

"I feel like this obsession with female modesty is just feeding into the rape culture that is far too prevalent in the area."

 

[Bernard Gui]

22 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

That does help. But no, that quote doesn't have much merit. All of these pieces seem sensationalistic....trying to drum up a story where there isn't much of one. It's also ironic, because they state Mormon communities may have a prob with this....but the Mormon community probably makes up a huge chunk of the school district and are part of the school board. If they really had a problem, this would have been addressed long before this piece.

It sounds like a big misunderstanding, it probably shouldn't have fond its way in a meeting, and my guess is that because this was a school counselor and a parent spearheading the complaint (maybe) neither really have much understanding about learning to control sex desires/potential problems with porn (I'd bet money he had one....but there I go, making fake news based off of heresay and assumption...).

 

With luv,

BD

Total agreement with this. This young man may have been reaching out for help, yet he and his family, the girls, the school, and the Church are now shamed in the national media and the Church is accused of fostering "rape culture."  

[Bernard Gui]

37 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It really is this big mountain made out of a mole hill.  To me this is just silly and has nothing to do with rape culture.  I give young people more credit than that.  (Both male and female)

The problem is that people see the mountain instead of the mole hill. Those that make it a mountain are using the young people for their own agenda, which is to heap ridicule on the Church. 

Quote

Timpview High School is located in a largely Mormon area of Utah, near not one, but two Mormon temples, and like BYU, many of the Utah high school’s dress codes and other policies are directly influenced by the Mormon church and so-called “Mormon values,” despite the fact that Timpview is a wholly publicly-funded high school that is in no way affiliated with the Mormon church.

Following the outrage of the Utah high school cheerleaders, and the sexist treatment they allegedly endured due to the “impure thoughts” of a single male classmate, the controversy surrounding the issue has made its way onto Mormon Internet forums.
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/3505653/utah-high-school-cheerleaders-squad-reportedly-told-not-to-wear-uniforms-because-a-boy-had-impure-thoughts/#DKc52pFE0iGCY7fs.99

 

This is major aggression against a young man who simply wanted to talk with his school counselor. Where is his safe place if not in the counselor's office?

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Jeanne]

40 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Whatever their mother decides is appropriate is appropriate.  I am all powerful.   I even send my kids to young womens right after athletics in their sport shorts.  I have turned into a rebellious soul.

You are positively disgusting!!

[bsjkki]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That seems more cynical than rebellious. You send them? Does this foster unity or chaos? 

So far, no chaos.  The beehives seem to be able to handle it.  😉

[Bernard Gui]

39 minutes ago, cinepro said:

It hasn't always been thus...

Well, this won't do. Those uniforms are symptomatic of the oppressive rape culture in which we Mormons find ourselves.

Sister Gui was a cheerleader and she wore uniforms just like those. I can hardly bare the shame of it all.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

And my point..the last thing I want to do is rape any one of these men. 

Of course not. But a boy confiding a personal problem to a school counselor is evidence that Mormons and Utahns live in a "rape culture."

Quote

Following the outrage of the Utah high school cheerleaders, and the sexist treatment they allegedly endured due to the “impure thoughts” of a single male classmate, the controversy surrounding the issue has made its way onto Mormon Internet forums.

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

The problem is that people see the mountain instead of the mole hill. Those that make it a mountain are using the young people for their own agenda, which is to heap ridicule on the Church. 

However this mountain was made...it was just silly and petty....young people shouldn't be used for any agenda..gees..high school..be kids!

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Its quite an advanced topic, and there is a great deal of maturity required to understand

In the church we teach that 

1.  all men are accountable for their own sins and not for adam's (or Danzos, or some girl who didn't dress right's) Sins.

2.  We are our brother's keeper and that we are responsible for looking out for each other.

How do we reconcile the two?

 

Well, that's the problem when we deal with modesty. On one hand, we have human nature. On the other, we have personal responsibility. On another (this is an octopus), we have agency. On yet another, we have societal pressures. Then there's the one with religious belief. And it goes on and on. 

[Bernard Gui]

31 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

How do we reconcile???   Quit wearing tight jeans guys...how does that make you feel??  Button up those shirts to the neck...how does that make you feel??  You're driving women to rape and we have unclean thoughts...how doe we reconcile with this???? 

It seems that the big question and answers...always belongs to the female. 

Again, I'm treading dangerous deep water, but are there not basic differences in male/female sexuality and doesn't modesty have at least some little part in the differences?

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[bcuzbcuz]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I agree.

But if the reason that female cheerleader uniforms are so short is because female cheerleaders should be objectified in ways male cheerleaders shouldn't, shouldn't every feminist in the country be fighting diligently to change the uniform to something that doesn't objectify women?

I agree completely. And not just the feminists. For the same reason I´d be very upset if any of my daughters or grand-daughters were required by their workplace to wear skimpy, or see through clothing. I don´t agree with the idea that a woman needs to display her legs or bosom in order to get tips, or to catch the attention at a job.

As a male, I´ve never had to show off my legs in any work situation. As a Secondary School teacher, I´ve played basketball and floor hockey against a student team. But then people ask me to cover up my bleached white skinny legs. (Are those your legs or are you riding a chicken?)

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

 

Lack of modesty may be a symptom of not understanding who God is, what his relationship is to you, why you are on earth and where you are going.  Those are just some off the top of my head.  

It's not a cop out.  It's actually much more difficult, because one has to find the root cause and treat it. It is also so individual - you have to search to find the reason behind each person to be effective. And taking care of the symptom may change things here and now, but once a youth is on their own and doesn't have the "rules/applications" enforced many youth will find no inclination to follow the rules if they don't understand why they should follow them. 

Let's be clear here.  No one here thinks that wanting modesty is advocating rape culture.  I, personally, think the term is thrown out too much and is used too often as an accusation against men.  That is one of the reasons I struggled to work with both your topic and the article.  In my eyes there were 2 different things going on.

 

I really appreciate your comments, but how does understanding who God is, what his relationship to us is, why we are here on earth and where we are going helps one dress modestly. How and why would such understanding affect how a young man or woman dresses?

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

So far, no chaos.  The beehives seem to be able to handle it.  😉

You send them?

[bsjkki]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You send them?

I do send them even, sometimes, when the don't want to go.  Depends on the week. Sometimes there is no time to change but I think it's better they attend.  Their current yw leaders seem to want them to attend even if they're sweaty and in shorts.

Edited September 15, 2016 by bsjkki

[bsjkki]

Byu doesn't seem to have a problem with cheerleader uniforms or appropriate practice clothes. 

[BlueDreams]

22 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Its quite an advanced topic, and there is a great deal of maturity required to understand

In the church we teach that 

1.  all men are accountable for their own sins and not for adam's (or Danzos, or some girl who didn't dress right's) Sins.

2.  We are our brother's keeper and that we are responsible for looking out for each other.

How do we reconcile the two?

 

I mentioned earlier that there is a difference between helping and enabling poor ideas or unhealthy behavior. I would rather teach boys and girls less body shame, normalizing the body (as opposed to keeping it in a shroud of mystery), accepting that attractions exist and should exist and that over time one will learn to bridle it so that it serves their best desires which should include relational sex. I'd teach the difference between attraction and lust. That sexual attraction is bound to happen but that lust (or desiring/seeking after something/one you can't have) needs to be tapered. I'd point out that there's nothing wrong with acknowledging attraction, but the person doesn't have to reciprocate said feelings and that attraction doesn't mean that something sexual/romantic/whatever needs to happen. In fact most times nothing will happen. I would teach them that only they are accountable for what they do with this gift of sexual desire, attraction, and general sexuality. And that just because someone looks good to you doesn't mean they "made you" look at them. It's just indicative you find something attractive about them. I would also teach them how not to objectify and that sexual attraction is best expressed when in balance with other forms of knowing a person better and in alignment with your personal goals and spiritual desires. I would also teach them to treat their bodies well, love the gift that we fought for before we came, and dress it in a manner that expresses your appreciation for a God-given gift. What this may look like may differ based on covenants made, personal preferences in expression, and where they're at.

A longer skirt, looser pants, or whatever else has no way of really teaching them this.

 

With luv,

BD

[BlueDreams]

55 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

So, a young man who may have problems with pornography or other disfunction talks with a school counselor, supposedly in confidence, and reports what he perceives as micro aggressions against his feelings from the cheerleaders wearing their short skirts in class. The counselor takes his plight to an administrator who wrings his hands, as administrators are want to do, communications get messed up, and Kate Kelly is brought out from her secluded woman cave to pontificate on the evils of Utah Mormon culture, or lack thereof. And instead of micro aggression, the boy is piled upon with macro aggression in the print and social media. Then the girls get their knickers in a knot over being told how to dress by one boy who probably will become a rapist if he is not reprogrammed. Wonderful. 

Let's say the roles were reversed, and one girl was offended by the guys wearing their tight baseball uniforms to class. Would we be reading this story? Would it be treated the same way?

Who are the sexists here?

Here's the money quote:

 

This appears to be a misuse of the word "microagression" in terms of what he felt. I don't see how it could feasibly constitute. And no we wouldn't be reading this story.

Because in all likelihood the girl wouldn't have said anything about her discomfort

If she did, it would have been most likely laughed off or dismissed because people don't take seriously the idea of women being "sexually triggered" it's considered a man thing. or male weakness inherent to them

Ergo no one would have felt the need to call a meeting. And nothing would have happened.

 

That anything did happen in the school is indicative of some cultural assumptions about gender and their control of their sexual desires that we struggle to move past.

With luv

[Jeanne]

47 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The problem is that people see the mountain instead of the mole hill. Those that make it a mountain are using the young people for their own agenda, which is to heap ridicule on the Church. 

This is major aggression against a young man who simply wanted to talk with his school counselor. Where is his safe place if not in the counselor's office?

He didn't do anything wrong..I agree..the counselor's office is where he should discuss anything that bothers him.  My take though is what bothers him is not the problem of high school cheerleaders..it is his problem.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

The problem is that people see the mountain instead of the mole hill. Those that make it a mountain are using the young people for their own agenda, which is to heap ridicule on the Church. 

This is major aggression against a young man who simply wanted to talk with his school counselor. Where is his safe place if not in the counselor's office?

This very well could be the case.

[Rain]

22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I really appreciate your comments, but how does understanding who God is, what his relationship to us is, why we are here on earth and where we are going helps one dress modestly. How and why would such understanding affect how a young man or woman dresses?

OK, I'm sorry I am quoting so much, but I needed to understand this before I could understand how it relates to your question. Please forgive any typing errors. From Elder Bednar's book again:

Quote

Gospel doctrines are a supernal source of power and influence for good. President Boyd K Packer has explained:

"True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior. The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel."

Two important words in President Packer's statement should be highlighted. First, true doctrine changes attitudes and behavior. True suggests doctrine that comes from God and is correct and accurate.  The sources of such doctrine are the authorized teachings of the Lord's anointed servants and the scriptures. False doctrine, personal opinions and speculation, and gospel "hobbies" do not and cannot produce the same righteous effect upon our outlook and conduct.

Second, true doctrine that is understood changes attitudes and behavior. Interestingly, President Packer did not teach that simply knowing true doctrine changes us.  Rather, doctrine must be understood. As we discussed in chapter 2, the word understanding in the scriptures  frequently is linked to and associated with the heart and refers to a revealed result or conclusion. Thus, true doctrine confirmed in the heart as true by the witness of the Holy Ghost changes attitudes and behavior. Knowing true doctrine is necessary but is not sufficient. Understanding true doctrine both in our mind and in our hearts is essential to righteous attitudes and actions.

Basic gospel doctrines are the spiritual foundation for all that we learn, teach and do - and a vital source of power and strength as we strive to become what the Lord would have us become. For example, the eternal importance of gender and of eternal marriage can be properly understood only within the context of our Heavenly father's plan of happiness. Emphasizing the institution of marriage without linking it adequately to the simple and fundamental doctrine of the plan cannot provide sufficient direction, protection and hope in a world confused about these vital issues.  A knowledge and testimony of the plan of salvation lead men and women to hope and prepare for marriage in the house of the Lord, strengthen their commitment to honor the covenant of the eternal marriage and overcome the fear and uncertainty that cause some to avoid or postpone marriage.  As we learn from the teaching of Alma, God gave unto the children of men commandments after having made known unto them the plan of redemption. (Alma 12:32).

In the time in which we do now and will yet live, only the restored gospel of Jesus Christ provides the answers to the eternally important why questions - the questions of the soul. Answers to all of the why questions we might ask have not been revealed, but the answers to the most fundamental why questions are readily available in the doctrine of Christ.  

"For example, the eternal importance of" modesty "can be properly understood only within the context of our Heavenly father's plan of happiness. Emphasizing the" behavior of modesty "without linking it adequately to the simple and fundamental doctrine of the plan cannot provide sufficient direction, protection and hope in a world confused about these vital issues.  A knowledge and testimony of the plan of salvation lead men and women" to care and respect for their bodies better "strengthen their commitment to honor the covenant" to always remember Christ "and overcome the fear and" ridicule of being in the world, but not of the world.  "As we learn from the teaching of Alma, God gave unto the children of men commandments after having made known unto them the plan of redemption. (Alma 12:32)."

In a nutshell, when someone understands the plan of salvation and the importance of their body within the plan they they will naturally apply modesty to themselves.

That "understanding" part is the BIG thing.  Trying to facilitate that understanding through the Spirit is NOT an easy thing because the person has agency and may not have ears to hear.  

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I do send them even, sometimes, when the don't want to go.  Depends on the week. Sometimes there is no time to change but I think it's better they attend.  Their current yw leaders seem to want them to attend even if they're sweaty and in shorts.

This is a different tone from your original statement.

Quote

Whatever their mother decides is appropriate is appropriate.  I am all powerful.   I even send my kids to young womens right after athletics in their sport shorts.  I have turned into a rebellious soul.

This seems to indicate an intention to flaunt the Church dress standards by sending them to meetings inappropriately dressed.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Byu doesn't seem to have a problem with cheerleader uniforms or appropriate practice clothes. 

Even Zion's University appears to foster a double standard. Why is that?

[The Nehor]

55 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

He didn't do anything wrong..I agree..the counselor's office is where he should discuss anything that bothers him.  My take though is what bothers him is not the problem of high school cheerleaders..it is his problem.

Pretty much. I can understand a sense of frustration. Most young men have it at some point where they are exposed to something their biology screams they must have but cannot. That's life. Of course the alternative is to go live as a hermit in the desert but that has its own negatives.

[bsjkki]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is a different tone from your original statement.

This seems to indicate an intention to flaunt the Church dress standards by sending them to meetings inappropriately dressed.

I think you missed my sarcasm.  I also don't think shorts are inappropriate.  Do you have a definition of 'short shorts' or 'short skirts.'  The Strength of Youth is highly subjective. Do you think we should add measurements and use rulers to determine the modesty of teen girls attire?