Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I thought I conveyed that very thought adequately.  In the past, BYU has given special permission for those of other religions to exercise their rights, so I imagine that they still do so.  I just don't know it for a fact.

Thanks...actually, I am sure that they would abide. 

[provoman]

On 9/15/2016 at 8:33 AM, Bernard Gui said:

On another thread, a poster pointed out this fatuous story as evidence of rape culture in Utah.... and by implication in the Church.

http://fox13now.com/2016/09/12/timpview-high-cheerleaders-rally-in-defense-of-uniforms-after-complaint/

"I feel like this obsession with female modesty is just feeding into the rape culture that is far too prevalent in the area."

This has nothing to do with "rape culture."

Seriously? There are many times one person's complaint causes hardship for others. Roe v. Wade comes to mind. As did the 2 Wiccans who complained to our school board about the stereotype Halloween witches and now Halloween is called Harvest Festival with nothing associated with Halloween allowed in the schools including pumpkins. And our Christmas Concerts are now called Winter Concerts where the music teachers have to count the "holiday" songs and justify the educational use of carols because someone complained. And there are dozens of examples on public school and college campuses where an individual or small group claims offense at something or someone and it is banned. Transgender locker rooms anyone? Talk about one person trumping everyone's rights!

Who is objectifying the women? Everyone knows professional and most college cheerleaders' uniforms are designed for only one purpose.... to motivate the team to play harder and win the game, of course. 

And talk about double standards, moral ambiguity, confusion, objectifying women, hypocrisy, and general nuttiness.... On the same web page as this goofy article about cheerleaders is the story of the "hottest" elementary teacher in America. Crivens!

Does emphasis on modesty create a rape culture among Mormons?

 

What is your definition of what "rape culture" means?  The boy, whose Constitutional rights are not violated by cheerleader uniforms, blamed the females in the uniforms for his own thoughts.

Do you understand that Roe v. Wade, Wiccans, Satanist in Oklahoma, all involved Constitutional issues?  That is the difference. High school cheerleader uniforms are not violating an others Constitutional rights.

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, provoman said:

The boy.... blamed the females in the uniforms for his own thoughts.

We don't have a direct quote from the boy, it could have been the mother, the counselor, whoever the administrator was who translated 'I have a problem that gets triggered when I see the girls' uniforms' to the girls in their uniforms are causing a problem for this boy.  We don't know if the boy was requesting the girls not wear their uniforms or just asking for help from the counselor on how to control his thoughts.  I think the mom emailing the administrator was likely looking to get the uniforms shut down as there would be little other reason though I suppose she might have been informing the admin she was going to have her son stay home on game days till he could cope better and the admin decided it was better for the kid to come and the uniforms to go, but I see that as unlikely because a mother protective enough to do that would likely be smart enough to realize that her son would prefer no one else to know.

I suppose there are boys out there who announce to others they are having impure thoughts because of ______, but it seems more likely to me he was either ashamed of his thoughts and trying to get help with them or he was complaining about the immodesty of the uniforms and someone else went to 'he is having impure thoughts so he wants the uniforms to go' because it would be a hit to his ego to admit it.  But perhaps I am translating my experience with young women (who have either blamed themselves too much as in over inflating a personal issue they have or completely distance themselves from an issue to begin with) onto young men.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, provoman said:

What is your definition of what "rape culture" means?  The boy, whose Constitutional rights are not violated by cheerleader uniforms, blamed the females in the uniforms for his own thoughts.

Do you understand that Roe v. Wade, Wiccans, Satanist in Oklahoma, all involved Constitutional issues?  That is the difference. High school cheerleader uniforms are not violating an others Constitutional rights.

If anyone's rights were violated at Timpview HS, it was the young man who had a reasonable expectation of privacy in a counselor's office. Expressing his concerns about their dress supposedly revealed him to the world as a potential rapist whose misguided attitudes were shaped by the Mormon/Utah "rape culture."

Quote

 I kind of felt like it's the school almost supporting a rape culture," said JoAnna Johnson, a Timpview cheerleader.... In part of [another] post, [a sister of one of the cheerleaders] wrote: I feel like this obsession with female modesty is just feeding into the rape culture that is far too prevalent in the area.

The charges against him were that a single adolescent male could not be allowed to dictate the behavior or dress of a group of girls and that he was a future rapist because of his living in a "rape culture."

Quote

And the cheerleaders were rightfully outraged that one boy's comment could control a squad of 44. "I kind of felt like it's the school almost supporting a rape culture," cheerleader JoAnna Johnson told Fox 13 Salt Lake City. "It's giving this boy power that when he grows up and does something to a girl, he can blame it on her skirt being too short," an anonymous cheerleader told People. "Why should this boy have control over what we wear?" http://www.seventeen.com/life/school/news/a42844/utah-cheerleaders-uniforms-shamed-impure-thoughts/

The examples I gave of a single person controlling what others can believe or do were to show the double standard of that notion, not about constitutional rights. This misguided thought is the driving force for the "microagression" and "safe place" nonsense. His "safe place" was violated. 

 Earlier I posted an example of how I could have been attacked and included in the "rape culture" by trying to enforce a school dress code. This raises the issue of why public and private organization even bother to have dress codes. Do you think they should? Why? How do you define "rape culture?" This is a common definition of the term:

Quote

http://www.wavaw.ca/what-is-rape-culture/ 

Many feminists have provided great definitions of what rape culture is and how it plays out everyday. Emilie Buchwald, author of Transforming a Rape Culture, describes that when society normalizes sexualized violence, it accepts and creates rape culture. In her book she defines rape culture as a complex set of beliefs that encourage male sexual aggression and supports violence against women. It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent. In a rape culture, women perceive a continuum of threatened violence that ranges from sexual remarks to sexual touching to rape itself. A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm . . . In a rape culture both men and women assume that sexual violence is a fact of life, inevitable . . . However . . . much of what we accept as inevitable is in fact the expression of values and attitudes that can change. 

 

The website Force: Upsetting the Rape Culture explains how rape culture is the images, language, laws and other everyday phenomena that we see and hear everyday that validate and perpetuate rape. Rape culture includes jokes, TV, music, advertising, legal jargon, laws, words and imagery, that make violence against women and sexual coercion seem so normal that people believe that rape is inevitable. Rather than viewing the culture of rape as a problem to change, people in a rape culture think about the persistence of rape as “just the way things are.”

 

 

This outrageous story should never have seen the light of day. "The school district insists that the cheerleaders could always have worn their uniforms on game days, and that the controversy was out of proportion to what really happened. 'It's a misunderstanding between the cheerleading advisor and a member of the school administration who gave her a message about the boy's concerns,' school district spokesperson Caleb Price told People. 'The school was never going to say you can't wear your uniforms or dress in a certain way.'

Edited September 19, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

But surely BYU/Church and any honor code does not supercede a religious right???  Ugh!!

Ugh? You don't even know what the policy for religious exceptions is. Why jump to conclusions?

Edited September 19, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Thinking]

On 9/15/2016 at 7:25 AM, sheilauk said:

Do the players do that?

At the school where I teach, the football players wear their game jerseys to school on game day.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

We don't have a direct quote from the boy, it could have been the mother, the counselor, whoever the administrator was who translated 'I have a problem that gets triggered when I see the girls' uniforms' to the girls in their uniforms are causing a problem for this boy.  We don't know if the boy was requesting the girls not wear their uniforms or just asking for help from the counselor on how to control his thoughts.  I think the mom emailing the administrator was likely looking to get the uniforms shut down as there would be little other reason though I suppose she might have been informing the admin she was going to have her son stay home on game days till he could cope better and the admin decided it was better for the kid to come and the uniforms to go, but I see that as unlikely because a mother protective enough to do that would likely be smart enough to realize that her son would prefer no one else to know.

I suppose there are boys out there who announce to others they are having impure thoughts because of ______, but it seems more likely to me he was either ashamed of his thoughts and trying to get help with them or he was complaining about the immodesty of the uniforms and someone else went to 'he is having impure thoughts so he wants the uniforms to go' because it would be a hit to his ego to admit it.  But perhaps I am translating my experience with young women (who have either blamed themselves too much as in over inflating a personal issue they have or completely distance themselves from an issue to begin with) onto young men.

My understanding is that the issue involved wearing the uniforms to class on game day. While the uniforms may be quite modest and appropriate for a game (when compared with other popular uniforms), the problem was that another dress in the same style would violate the school dress code if worn to class. The boy did not have to go to the games, but he did have to go to classes. We had the same questions at the high school where I taught. From my experience as an adolescent male, a teacher, a church youth leader, and a father, I agree with your assessment of the situation. I would also note that Sis Gui says felt uncomfortable wearing her short cheerleader uniform to class on game days. For me this raises the question of situation dress codes and all the hoopla that accompany them. Maybe we should just teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. What do we do when they don't govern themselves? Why does any entity have dress codes?

Edited September 19, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Jeanne]

17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Ugh? You don't even know what the policy for religious exclusions is. Why jump to conclusions?

This is true.  My assumptions I apologize.  Sometimes I phrase things wrong when I only want to ask a question.  I wouldn't know. Sorry.

[Thinking]

From my experience in my little world with my friends back in the late 70's and early 80's, teenage boys don't need a girl to be dressed in a cheerleader outfit to have "impure" thoughts. As long as there are hormones flowing, thoughts will happen. The biggest criticism, as I see it, is placing the responsibility on the girl.

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

My understanding is that the issue involved wearing the uniforms to class on game day. While the uniforms may be quite modest and appropriate for a game (when compared with other popular uniforms), the problem was that another dress in the same style would violate the school dress code if worn to class. We had the same questions at the high school where I taught. From my experience as an adolescent male, a teacher, a church youth leader, and a father, I agree with your assessment of the situation. I would also note that Sis Gui says felt uncomfortable wearing her short cheerleader uniform to class on game days. For me this raises the question of situation dress codes and all the hoopla that accompany them. Maybe we should just teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. What do we do when they don't govern themselves? Why does any entity have dress codes?

The school should probably enforce their dress code and not have a double standard for cheerleaders.  All uniforms worn in regular classes (and not while performing the activity they were made for) should have to follow the school's dress code.

[Bernard Gui]

What would the public reaction have been if the boy were a devout Muslim, not a Mormon?

[Bernard Gui]

Quote

It's unclear how official the recommendation actually was. (Regardless, it's pretty awful that a parent of a boy would complain about the cheerleaders' uniforms rather than teach her son to control himself.) Now, the cheerleaders can wear their uniforms on game day, as usual. http://www.seventeen.com/life/school/news/a42844/utah-cheerleaders-uniforms-shamed-impure-thoughts/

So, why do public and private institutions have dress codes? 

[Bernard Gui]

 

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

At the school where I teach, the football players wear their game jerseys to school on game day.

Is it a violation of the dress code?

Edited September 19, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

From my experience in my little world with my friends back in the late 70's and early 80's, teenage boys don't need a girl to be dressed in a cheerleader outfit to have "impure" thoughts. As long as there are hormones flowing, thoughts will happen. The biggest criticism, as I see it, is placing the responsibility on the girl.

So, what is the purpose of dress codes?

[Thinking]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

So, what is the purpose of dress codes?

I watched the video of the Timpview cheerleaders performing, and their uniforms seemed pretty modest to me. Having been associated with those who are in charge of choosing cheer uniforms, I do know that it's standard for cheerleaders to wear "cheerleader briefs" in order to improve the modesty. It's not like they are walking around in super short skirts with lace panties.

[provoman]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Quote

 

If anyone's rights were violated at Timpview HS, it was the young man's who had a reasonable expectation of privacy in a counselor's office. Expressing his concerns about their dress supposedly revealed him to the world as a potential rapist whose misguided attitudes were shaped by the Mormon/Utah "rape culture."

 The Cheerleader uniforms are the issue at present. Whether there was a violation of confidentiality or HIPPA is for a different discussion. Do you have evidence that ANYONE other than those that "need to know" are aware of the boy's name; if not, it would seem tilting against windmills is going on.

Quote

 

The charges against him were that a single adolescent male could not be allowed to dictate the behavior or dress of a group of girls and that he was a future rapist because of his living in a "rape culture." The examples I gave of a single person controlling what others can believe or do were to contradict that notion, not about constitutional rights. This misguided thought is the driving force for the "microagression" and "safe place" nonsense. His "safe place" was violated.

You are straining for a comparison, and it is comparison that does not work and sophomoric at best.

Quote

 

 Earlier I posted an example of how I could have been attacked and included in the "rape culture" by trying to enforce a school dress code. This raises the issue of why public and private organization even bother to have dress codes. Do you think they should?

I do not feel inclined to entertain a philosophical debate about school dress codes. If you can find the exact stated reason for a particular dress code, then we could discuss the merits of the dress code as compared to the reasoning.

Edited September 19, 2016 by provoman
clarity

[provoman]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

The school should probably enforce their dress code and not have a double standard for cheerleaders.  All uniforms worn in regular classes (and not while performing the activity they were made for) should have to follow the school's dress code.

The double standard is having Cheerleader uniforms that violate the dress code.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, provoman said:

The double standard is having Cheerleader uniforms that violate the dress code.

That doesn't really bother me.  The Volleyball, basketball, track, and wrestling uniforms likely all violate the dress code as well as the swimsuits for swimming and diving.  I don't see why cheerleading should be held to a higher standard than all the other sports.

But when it comes to wearing stuff in the classroom, the school needs to be consistent.

[Bernard Gui]

54 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I watched the video of the Timpview cheerleaders performing, and their uniforms seemed pretty modest to me. Having been associated with those who are in charge of choosing cheer uniforms, I do know that it's standard for cheerleaders to wear "cheerleader briefs" in order to improve the modesty. It's not like they are walking around in super short skirts with lace panties.

I acknowledged that earlier. But what is the purpose of a dress code?

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

I acknowledged that earlier. But what is the purpose of a dress code?

The biggest reason I can think of and was told to me was distraction  This is where objective t-shirts..h  ats and tattoos came in.  So are school uniforms distracting..school colors, team day???  I don't really think so..seeing how on game day it is an expected thing   You know..after the school shootings in Denver there was another kind of distraction and that was the long coats..so I guess it varies..

As a young woman back in the day, I kind of wish we had school uniforms...the biggest distraction in school was the "haves" and "have nots" in cool clothes..!

[Bernard Gui]

48 minutes ago, provoman said:

 The Cheerleader uniforms are the issue at present. Whether there was a violation of confidentiality or HIPPA is for a different discussion. Do you have evidence that ANYONE other than those that "need to know" are aware of the boy's name; if not, it would seem tilting against windmills is going on.

You are straining for a comparison, and it is comparison that does not work and sophomoric at best.

I do not feel inclined to entertain a philosophical debate about school dress codes. If you can find the exact stated reason for a particular dress code, then we could discuss the merits of the dress code as compared to the reasoning.

Having been a professional in the public school environment for over 40 years, it is not unreasonable for me to assume his identity has become known. Even if it were not, a discussion with a school counselor should not have been made public unless it involved threats of violence.

The comparison stands for the reasons I gave. That you don't like it is not a valid argument.

You are on the wrong thread, then, because one of my purposes for this debate is to examine the problems created by dress codes and efforts to enforce them. If you are unable or unwilling to give good faith reasons for having and enforcing them, especially in a school situation, thank you for playing.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That doesn't really bother me.  The Volleyball, basketball, track, and wrestling uniforms likely all violate the dress code as well as the swimsuits for swimming and diving.  I don't see why cheerleading should be held to a higher standard than all the other sports.

But when it comes to wearing stuff in the classroom, the school needs to be consistent.

Which, as far as I can tell, is the issue.... whatever the uniform that might be appropriate in a sport, but would violate a stated dress code if worn during class. What does consistency in this scenario look like?

 

[Gray]

I feel sorry for this young man. Excessive obsession with modesty has made him a non-functional individual in the society that is his school. Whoever has taught him this has done him a great disservice. 

[provoman]

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Having been a professional in the public school environment for over 40 years, it is not unreasonable for me to assume his identity has become known. Even if it were not, a discussion with a school counselor should not have been made public unless it involved threats of violence.

The comparison stands for the reasons I gave. That you don't like it is not a valid argument.

You are on the wrong thread, then, because one of my purposes for this debate is to examine the problems created by dress codes and efforts to enforce them. If you are unable or unwilling to give good faith reasons for having and enforcing them, especially in a school situation, thank you for playing.

Your argument is "apples are oranges, because both apples and oranges are round and found on trees".

As for the dress code, what is the stated purpose of the dress code at issue? I will not pretend to conjure a reason for a dress code at a school. Where I grew up males could not have long hair, sandles were not allowed, no one could wear shorts. The stated purpose of the dress where I went highschool is for teaching hygiene, grooming and address safety.

[bsjkki]

12 minutes ago, Gray said:

I feel sorry for this young man. Excessive obsession with modesty has made him a non-functional individual in the society that is his school. Whoever has taught him this has done him a great disservice. 

...and society at large.