Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Bernard Gui]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

"Someone"complained, as far as I can tell the boy has not been identified as the source of the complaint, but almost everyone is assuming that.

I have a hard time imagining that something of this magnitude can be kept under the hat at a high school. Curious minds want to know and the rumor mills run overtime when something like this happens.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Double post. Sorry. The websites seems to be responding erratically.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

38 minutes ago, Gray said:

Well, I suppose it's possible that the material facts of the story are partially or completely wrong. But if he did indeed make some kind of request that the cheerleaders dress more modestly because they were causing him to have impure thoughts, then I don't think I would walk back my assessment.

I was socially awkward as a kid, I get it. But kids don't act out in this way unless some adults have been filling their heads with what I would call misguided and extreme modesty rhetoric. 

You have no evidence that this over-the-top meme (source please) is how this young man was taught the concept modesty. 

[Bernard Gui]

Quote

Calm said: How modesty is taught may contribute to beliefs that one has the right to dominate others, even with violence.  Actual modesty, in and of itself is not the problem.  It is how some cultures, communities, and individuals approach it.

 

Agreed. We should approach the subject of virtue and modesty with clarity and good faith.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

 

Quote

 

Stem elbow said 

The sad part of this story is there is a boy who thinks his problem of impure thoughts is caused by girls who wear uniforms at school and that after this boy told someone that it got back to the coach who told the cheerleaders they can't wear their uniforms at school.  Meaning the grownups involved handled this really poorly.

Rape Culture?  I don't think so.  That's overblowing this way out of proportion.  But rape is awful and should be condemned always, and any culture that contributes to rape should be condemned as well

 

We only know the rumors about what he said. As far as I know, the counselor has not been quoted. We only have what someone supposedly told someone who supposedly told someone who supposedly told someone. Yes, the adults handled it poorly, and so has the media, but that much is to be expected. They do what they do. No one is arguing that rape is a good thing. 

. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Gray]

51 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Somebody told somebody that someone said something about something. And that is supposed to expose the essence of his being and the depravity of his soul? Seriously. You are jiving us, right?

Who said he was depraved? Not me. Is that the word you're using to describe him?

[Gray]

45 minutes ago, Calm said:

But he chose to go speak in private to a counselor.  He did not say it aloud to the cheerleaders or make as far as we know any sort of public statement.  We don't even know if he made a complaint or was just trying to get help for a personal problem (would someone making a complaint go to a counselor or an administrator?).  Would we not applaud a professional who realizing he has problems interacting with his coworkers going to a counselor to get help with that?  The boy, imo, may have done the very thing everyone intelligent and informed about such things would have wanted him to do.  Don't we want people whose thoughts processes aren't healthy to get help?

If that's what happened, then I think I would have to walk back my previous observations. Good points. 

[Gray]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You have no evidence that this over-the-top meme (source please) is how this young man was taught the concept modesty. 

I never suggested that the young man was exposed to this exact message. Please do be careful not to misrepresent me. 

I found the image by doing a google image search for "mormon seminary modesty slide". Apparently this showed up in someone's seminary class. 

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, Gray said:

Who said he was depraved? Not me. Is that the word you're using to describe him?

No. That's the type of words used to describe him in the news stories. One even suggests he will be a future rapist. Perhaps you should read them.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

I never suggested that the young man was exposed to this exact message. Please do be careful not to misrepresent me. 

I found the image by doing a google image search for "mormon seminary modesty slide". Apparently this showed up in someone's seminary class. 

Why did you post it if it was not to imply he was exposed to this kind of message?How do you know that he was? If you don't want to source it, then I will ask you for a CFR. Please provide the source. I will agree that this example of teaching modesty is wrong. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

It's hard to take this seriously. You couldn't wear your skimpy shorts to class because the teacher and the assistant principal would send you home post haste to dress appropriately for class.

He chose to share his feelings? Crivens. With the world or with the guidance counselor?
 

Notice the inflammatory word "complained." What do you know about his "complaint?" The purpose of dress codes is to prevent distraction. He was concerned about an issue specifically identified in the dress code. His concerns deserved fair consideration and confidentiality. School personnel are to address any student or parent issue appropriately. This was not handled appropriately. The boy is not a future rapist.

Good grief.

I don't think anyone would have sent me home had I dressed that way for class. People would have given me funny looks. But I didn't grow up in Utah. My high school was rural but it wasn't Utah rural.

So the complaint actually originated with his Mother? If so, that, I think, explains quite a lot. 

I don't think the boy is a future rapist, by the way. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Gray

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why did you post it if it was not to imply he was exposed to this kind of message?How do you know that he was? If you don't want to source it, then I will ask you for a CFR. Please provide the source.

I posted it because it's an example of the kinds of extremist and unhealthy modesty messages that have seeped into Mormon culture. This one is particularly creepy. Latter-day Saints should have no truck with this filth. It is spiritual pornography. 

I'm sorry, but you don't get to CFR me because you want a source for a picture. CFRs are to back up claims. Regardless, I am happy to provide the source of my own free will. You didn't need to badger me for it, although asking politely would have been nice.  

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/comments/4u05dj/meanwhile_in_seminary/

It made the rounds on reddit a couple of months ago.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Gray

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, Gray said:

Who said he was depraved? Not me. Is that the word you're using to describe him?

No. That's the type of words used to describe him in the news stories. One even suggests he will be a rapist in the future. Perhaps you should read them.

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No. That's the word used to describe him in the news stories. Perhaps you should read them.

You seemed to be imputing that position to me. I'm glad we're clear now that neither of us believes he is depraved. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Gray

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

I posted it because it's an example of the kinds of extremist and unhealthy modesty messages that have seeped into Mormon culture. This one is particularly creepy. Latter-day Saints should have no truck with this filth. It is spiritual pornography. 

I'm sorry, but you don't get to CFR me because you want a source for a picture. CFRs are to back up claims. Regardless, I am happy to provide the source of my own free will. You didn't need to badger me for it, although asking politely would have been nice.  

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/comments/4u05dj/meanwhile_in_seminary/

 

 

Thanks. It would have been easier just to provide it when requested.

[Gray]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks. It would have been easier just to provide it when requested.

You could have easily found it yourself, but I'm glad that you seem satisfied. 

[Bernard Gui]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

But he chose to go speak in private to a counselor.  He did not say it aloud to the cheerleaders or make as far as we know any sort of public statement.  We don't even know if he made a complaint or was just trying to get help for a personal problem (would someone making a complaint go to a counselor or an administrator?).  Would we not applaud a professional who realizing he has problems interacting with his coworkers going to a counselor to get help with that?  The boy, imo, may have done the very thing everyone intelligent and informed about such things would have wanted him to do.  Don't we want people whose thoughts processes aren't healthy to get help?

Would you please consider my offer to hire you as my ghost writer? What is your price? I have been trying to express this thought for 3 days, and here you do it in one paragraph. 

This story never should have seen the light of day. I can imagine what the staff meetings at Timpview have been like since it came out.

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, Gray said:

I don't think anyone would have sent me home had I dressed that way for class. People would have given me funny looks. But I didn't grow up in Utah. My high school was rural but it wasn't Utah rural.

So the complaint actually originated with his Mother? If so, that, I think, explains quite a lot. 

I don't think the boy is a future rapist, by the way. 

Based on my experience teaching in rural, suburban, and city schools, I find it hard to believe a student would be allowed to do that, but if you say so. Did you ever try it or did anyone else?

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

You could have easily found it yourself, but I'm glad that you seem satisfied. 

No, I couldn't have. That's why I asked. Interesting that you didn't include this message when that thread got closed down...

Quote

While I believe this post should remain to demonstrate that faithful Latter-Day Saints find this equally as deplorable as those outside our faith, I don't believe this is leading to any fatih-positive discussion, and it seems the intention of the post is exploitation, to "stir up anger." There have been plenty of posts about modesty in the past, this is contributing nothing. I'm locking it. If anyone knows the actual OP, it should be reported.

 

[BlueDreams]

On 9/17/2016 at 3:51 AM, Bernard Gui said:

I try to respond to everyone, but somehow I missed this important insightful post that answers some of my questions. I intentionally used microagression to poke at the current craziness among certain folks to take offense where none was intended even from the most innocent of comments. "I like your hairdo." "Sexist pig!!"

It's a worthwhile effort. Obviously i'm not as good with it. Particularly lately. Work has been busy. 

I don't know if misapplying terms is a great way to combat the misapplication of terms. Personally I've had microagressions come my way. I know it's something that people often tend to think don't exist or aren't a thing or are people being oversensitive. And some things are ridiculous (such as if people do purport what you said). But for me, they're not fun. They become irritating, uncomfortable, and the worse ones can blindside you and leave you out of place for a bit. 

 

Quote

 

Confiding a problem with a school counselor, probably very hard to do for a young boy especially with this issue, resulted in a major escalation where a whole bunch of people came down very hard on him and his mother for what they perceived as a sexual attack on the girls, akin to rape. Susequent actions by the school and comments by the girls, relatives, the media, a few folks on this board, and anti-Mormons confirm this.

 A girl might complain about boys wearing tight uniform pants to class, probably not that she was having "impure thoughts," but that she felt it was gross, disgusting, or exhibitionistic. I've seen crazier things in my teaching experience. Is it not problematic that she would be laughed off the playing field? If she were and the media got wind of it there would hell to pay.

For example, my high school was trying to enforce a rather mild dress code in response to the annual springtime escalating immodesty. Some of the male teachers expressed concern about confronting the girls who were in violation of the standards, so it was decided they could pass a prepared note to the girl instructing her to go to the office. I soon had occasion to hand out such a note. The girl read the note and angrily asked me, "What are you looking at!!??" I saw my career pass before my eyes as I said, "Nothing, but you need to go to the office." That was the last time I tried to enforce the dress code. We eventually asked the female teachers to take over enforcement. Some did, but most would not. They thought the girls were "cute." I don't understand that word.

A few days later, the school superintendent was visiting our school. Mrs Gui and I had served for a year on a task force to create school uniforms in our secondary schools to eliminate all the stupid dress issues. We came up with khakis or jeans and polos, t-shirts, or pullovers in the schools' colors. He rejected it as "too Spartan," even though that was the same dress code at the private school his 2 girls attended. I happened to be walking down a hall behind him when we came upon some girls whose dress was the reason for which we were trying to enforce the code. I was curious what he would do. Eyes right, and soldier on! Not a glance nor a word. A wise man, I thought. That's why he was paid 6 times my salary. 

So given that and the current discussion, I wonder why we have dress standards at all.

 

  I think Rain (?) mentioned about having outfits that aren't distracting or calling too much attention. I'm fairly certain I mentioned that I don't mind having dress codes, as long as they're fair and equally applied (often they're not and women may get the brunt of it). But I think there can be exceptions to dress codes that honor school traditions or other areas. For example an office may have casual friday at times. On the mission you were in dress clothes except for service activities that warranted work clothes, sports activities on p-day, etc. And in HS in texas they had this (ridiculous) tradition of pinning mums on girls for homecoming that had cowbells/regular bells on them, that made the ladies sound like a herd of cows walking down the hallway. It was definitely distracting. But allowed one time a year. Etc. This sounded like a gameday tradition. lIt was the exception for the usual day-to-day outfits the girls probably wore.

Oh, and speaking of uniforms:

 

Another interesting little fact. The temple also has exceptions to the "everybody wears all white long sleeves/skirts/pants. Certain workers (electricians, security, and laundry workers) don't have to and may wear short sleeved. Security usually wears regular Sunday best...no all white for them. The temple also has a very strong policy about patron's dress coming into the temple....in that workers should never critique or question what patrons are wearing when entering the House of the Lord. Ever. It's emphasized and reemphasized and beyond the endowment session itself, reemphasized again as to not reduce the patron's experience. I figure applying such a thing outside the temple wouldn't be such a bad thing. 

 

With luv,

BD 

Edited September 20, 2016 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

 

So the complaint actually originated with his Mother? If so, that, I think, explains quite a lot. 

The complaint may have originated withhis mother (seems most likely to me for the reason she talked to an admin, she might have talkedto a counselor just about her conversations with her son for information and not to complain, but an admin who wasn't party to those conversations...though it is possible shewanted to ralk about making special accomodations for her son so the cheerleadersdidn't have to change and it was someone else whodecided to push their own agenda by piggybacking on the boy's difficulties), but no one has been identified responsibly as the source so we should not make claims itwasa specific person.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Calm

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

Well, I suppose it's possible that the material facts of the story are partially or completely wrong. But if he did indeed make some kind of request that the cheerleaders dress more modestly because they were causing him to have impure thoughts, then I don't think I would walk back my assessment.

I was socially awkward as a kid, I get it. But kids don't act out in this way unless some adults have been filling their heads with what I would call misguided and extreme modesty rhetoric. 

I hope this isn't current but an old video that was thrown in a trash can. ETA: If this isn't rape culture, I don't know what is. It's threatening women that if they show too much they'll get touched. This seminary video and the church authorizing it's existence is a party to possible rapes. Shame on the church.

Bernard, if I were an attorney, I'd show this video in a court of law and call it evidence, that male students in the church's seminary program are possibly affected, in fact, not even possibly.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would you please consider my offer to hire you as my ghost writer? What is your price? I have been trying to express this thought for 3 days, and here you do it in one paragraph. 

This story never should have seen the light of day. I can imagine what the staff meetings at Timpview have been like since it came out.

Maybe God wants him used as an example. Much like how Laban being be-headed saved a nation. This boy's attitude toward immodesty causing him impure thoughts and it being the cheerleaders' faults must be stopped. And I'm sure he'll realize it and he and others will hopefully learn from it.

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by Tacenda

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I hope this isn't current but an old video that was thrown in a trash can. ETA: If this isn't rape culture, I don't know what is. It's threatening women that if they show too much they'll get touched. This seminary video and the church authorizing it's existence is a party to possible rapes. Shame on the church.

Bernard, if I were an attorney, I'd show this video in a court of law and call it evidence, that male students in the church's seminary program are possibly affected, in fact, not even possibly.

It is not an approved seminary video as far as I can tell.  I assume they still do untrained volunteer seminary teachers in places they don't have enough students for CES daytime released schooling.

Btw, there isthis blog out there that makes me wonder if this slide was actually meant to be a spoof drawing attention to the inappropriateness of this type of thought since the original children's song was all about teaching self control.   

http://www.experttextperts.com/2016/01/you-have-two-big-strong-hands-that.html

"Second, this is a children's song. Not just any children's song--it's one that teaches children that they will learn to control their impulses and grow into understanding. We grew up using this song and its message to learn about reverence, hard work, and gratitude. Using it to tell young women that they HAVE TO COVER UP OMG and to tell young men that they have no control over what they do or what they think perpetuates rape culture. Messages like this one make young men think they are actual monsters, and we can only hope and pray that those who learn this with no one telling them otherwise will grow enough sense to control their actions and impulses."

I really would like to find the original teacher if this is not a hoax.

[Stargazer]

47 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I hope this isn't current but an old video that was thrown in a trash can. ETA: If this isn't rape culture, I don't know what is. It's threatening women that if they show too much they'll get touched. This seminary video and the church authorizing it's existence is a party to possible rapes. Shame on the church.

Bernard, if I were an attorney, I'd show this video in a court of law and call it evidence, that male students in the church's seminary program are possibly affected, in fact, not even possibly.

I think the video is flawed, but there is a principle that needs to be addressed.

Men are highly subject to visual cues when it comes to sexual attraction.  Does anyone disagree with this?  If so, then they are delusional.  The idea that if a woman shows off something a man should feel free to touch it is utter and absolute baloney. Except possibly in a Muslim tradition.  In Western culture men keep their hands to themselves.  But what about their brains?  I can no more shut off my sexuality than I can stop thinking of elephants, after being told not to think of elephants.  I'm not always thinking about sex (despite what that old research seemed to claim about men), and when I do not have visual stimuli of that nature in my sight, I am not frequently bothered by those thoughts.  When I was young and my raging hormones were new to me, well, then I might have gone off my rocker independently of any stimuli, but not today.  Well, since I am recently newly remarried, I'm somewhat back in the occasional self-initiation phase again, but still...

I remember the General Conference when a speaker admonished the young women to dress more modestly so as not to incite the young men.  And I remember the furore this caused.  "My daughter can wear anything she darn pleases!"  Also that some women were laying the problem at the feet of men in general.  "Its not my daughter's fault if a young man starts having sexual thoughts by seeing her dressed like a two-bit lady of the night!"  

The problem is, those objecting to the call for modesty in dress seem to be in full-on denial concerning the nature of male sexuality.  And they want those pesky men to just turn it off!  As if there were a switch somewhere that could enable this.  Well, there may be exceptions, but virtually no heterosexual and non-blind man upon the planet can any more turn it off than he can not think of elephants when someone commands him to not think of elephants.  Some of us are just better at making it look like we're not affected, that's all.  If you're an exception, by the way, and you CAN turn it off, please tell me how you do it, because I want to know how.

It's not that as soon as I see some cleavage I am immediately having to hold myself back from thinking of ravishing the woman showing it.  Not at all.  It is just that it is highly distracting. There was a woman at one of my former places of employment who was pretty and well-endowed, and she invariably wore a low-cut blouse to work, every day.  She literally never wore anything that came all the way up to her neck.  I could have ignored her, but her job required that I occasionally come to her to interact for one reason or another.  It was a challenge to keep my eyes off that gorgeous cleavage!  I didn't want to gawk; yet I still did occasionally.  I noticed that she noticed that I would occasionally glance that way, and believe it or not she didn't like it!  OK, I will admit that it was my failing that I sometimes failed to keep my eyes away.  But dammit, what was the point of her showing off her mammaries, if she didn't want men to look at them?  What if I showed up to work wearing a codpiece?  How ridiculous would I sound if I complained that the women were looking at it?

I am much better at seeming to ignore immodest or exhibitionist dress these days.  But I wish I wasn't getting challenged from time to time by the way some women feel they must put themselves on display, as if they had to somehow PROVE that they are a woman.