Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Bernard Gui]

 Another question for consideration....

If it is the LDS man's responsibility to avoid "impure thoughts" or "look the other way" regardless of the circumstances, what criteria should LDS women consider when making the decisions of what clothing they purchase and wear?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Good to know, thanks. I was under the impression that CFRs were only to back up factual claims - that seems to be how the rules are worded.

In the beginning when most people weren't yet trained and didn't provide links to even so it was not their own work, we saw a lot more CFR for basic documentation.  Showing it meant we could assume it was the poster's own work product so rather important nowadays to always doc.

Btw, I did a search on the title and came up with nothing that gave any details where it came from so as to be able to confirm my speculation the guy was unwise to present as a song the youth sing together as well as had parts (so triple the pain) plus we only saw the YM part as well and what if this was a stupid/too clever way to get a point across by a satire?  Do you remember seeing any details for an original source?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Honorentheos said:

By the results. Were it handled correctly we wouldn't be talking about it. It would not have turned into a discussion about cheerleader uniforms and if they were responsible.

I'm confused about what you are trying to say. Do you have more information about the conversations between the boy, his mother, and the school? I haven't seen anything other than second- and third-hand rumors and innuendo. It's risky to make assumptions based on such sketchy information.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Rivers]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 Another question for consideration....

If it is the LDS man's responsibility to avoid "impure thoughts" or "look the other way" regardless of the circumstances, what criteria should LDS women consider when making the decision of what clothing they purchase and wear?

Maybe whatever demonstrates the most self-respect. 

What kind of criteria do men consider when they dress themselves?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Rivers

[Bernard Gui]

Quote

I have not read every word in this thread - modesty (for both sexes) is an important topic to me - because I tend to get frustrated and have trouble articulating my viewpoint, but I do want to respond to a pile of things in your post.

Regarding the comments about newscasters/hosts, I have friends in the entertainment industry (musicians). The men regularly wear suits or similar attire. The women show much more skin, and that is the expectation/pressure.  No such expectation for the men. 

I am going to check out Wendy Shalit's book based on your comments here.  You have made me curious.

Last (inarticulate) thoughts.  I converted from Judaism. I was Orthodox, so modesty in clothing is not a new concept for me. I did go through a phase of going way over to the other end of the spectrum, including (to a limited, and still more modest than popular culture), how I dressed.  I came away from that experience with even further understanding, and appreciation of modesty.  I wish I could articulate all the reasons why, including the one that would get me mercilessly flamed - that many women are not being honest when they claim that that their desire to dress in certain ways has absolutely noting to do with wanting to appear sexually appealing.

 

I think those professional expectations objectify the women. 

Wendy Shalit's book is a defense of modesty from an OrthodoxJewish perspective.

You just articulated that important point very well. The problem is if they object to the attention that they may be seeking. Let me insist once again that immodest dress does not justify rape.

[Bernard Gui]

28 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Maybe whatever demonstrates the most self-respect. 

What kind of criteria do men consider when they dress themselves?

Depends on the man. I had a college roommate whose wardrobe consisted only of black slacks, long sleeve white dress shirts, and hand-tied black bow ties. Some men dress in a way they think makes them attractive to women. Others to satisfy professional or safety expectations. Some want to be cool and fashionable. Some could care less what they wear. Much the same as women, I suppose. I'm not sure that many men consider modesty as a major factor when choosing their dress. A friend my age who rides his bicycle in biker spandex comes to mind. Nothing is left to the imagination. A medical school could use him as a model in male anatomy classes in that outfit. I don't know if the ladies think it's sexy.

How do you define self-respect? Does immodest dress indicate lack of self-respect?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Rivers]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Let me insist once again that immodest dress does not justify rape.

Nothing justifies rape. Rapists are among the lowest pieces of sh** on the totem pole.  

So rash accusations of rape or rape culture should be avoided too.

[Rain]

On 9/15/2016 at 4:35 AM, Rain said:

It would be interesting to know more of the story.  I'm getting from this that the school never had any plans to ban the uniforms in class,  that they don't know who it was complained and that cheerleaders have been told that yes,  they can wear them by the principal.  So did the cheerleaders misunderstand the coach? Did the coach misunderstand administration? 

 

On 9/15/2016 at 9:34 AM, Bernard Gui said:

That doesn't matter. The point of the article is that this is evidence of a "rape culture" in Utah and the Church. Advocating for modesty proves you are a rapist?

 

40 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I'm confused about what you are trying to say. Do you have more information about the conversations between the boy, his mother, and the school? I haven't seen anything other than second- and third-hand rumors and innuendo. It's risky to make assumptions based on such sketchy information.

I'm sorry, but this makes me smile.  I'd still like to know more about the story before assuming anything on either side.The articles just don't give enough evidence either way. 

So we have three main topics in your post.  1. What is rape culture and how does advocating for modesty work into it if at all?  2."Is there evidence of rape culture in Utah?"  3. Is there evidence of rape culture in this story?

The article linked in the OP didn't give enough evidence for any of those questions which is why I wanted more information.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Rain

[Rivers]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

How do you define self-respect? Does immodest dress indicate lack of self-respect?

Good question. Perhaps whatever helps you present your best self.  They say you can't judge a book by its cover but a book cover helps to sell the book.  

Edited September 21, 2016 by Rivers

[saemo]

On 9/15/2016 at 8:54 AM, bluebell said:

But if the swimmers tried to wear their swimsuits and speedos to class, how far do you think that would get?  The idea that the cheerleaders uniforms need to be short so they can perform really doesn't have anything to do with them wearing them in class, right?

My understanding, from back in the day when I was in high school, is that cheerleaders were encouraging support of the team and promoting attendance, on the day the team played. They were not allowed to wear their cheerleading uniforms to class on non-game days. 

[saemo]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

 Another question for consideration....

If it is the LDS man's responsibility to avoid "impure thoughts" or "look the other way" regardless of the circumstances, what criteria should LDS women consider when making the decision of what clothing they purchase and wear?

It is also normal for boys to learn to control themselves, including their thoughts. They can start by looking somewhere else, and not blame the girl for their normal biological reactions and how they respond to what the body is up to at the moment.

Modesty, as I see it, is a response to God, not to some random, randy teenager, in a hallway.

 

[Bernard Gui]

39 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

 

I'm sorry, but this makes me smile.  I'd still like to know more about the story before assuming anything on either side.The articles just don't give enough evidence either way. 

So we have three main topics in your post.  1. What is rape culture and how does advocating for modesty work into it if at all?  2."Is there evidence of rape culture in Utah?"  3. Is there evidence of rape culture in this story?

The article linked in the OP didn't give enough evidence for any of those questions which is why I wanted more information.

There are more articles linked by various people in the early pages. None of them provide quotes from the mother, the boy, or the counsellor. There are inflammatory quotes from cheerleaders, their friends and relatives, an extended interview with anti-Mormon Kate Kelly, and a few school administrators trying to put out the fire. Two people are quoted who predict the young boy will become a rapist because of the Utah/Mormon "rape culture." So, some specifics are given, but nothing that would shed more information on what actually precipitated the fiasco. We know how the girls and their supporters feel, but there is nothing but disdain and ridicule for the boy and the Church.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, saemo said:

My understanding, from back in the day when I was in high school, is that cheerleaders were encouraging support of the team and promoting attendance, on the day the team played. They were not allowed to wear their cheerleading uniforms to class on non-game days. 

Which appears to be the issue the young man was having. Why suspend the school dress code on game day? The same issue was brought up in the high school where I taught. Not in a Mormon community.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[saemo]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Which appears to be the issue the young man was having. Why suspend the school dress code on game day? The same issue was often brought up in the high school where I taught. No one could figure out why.

The cheerleader I knew, didn't see it as violating a dress code, but as pride in the accomplishment of becoming a member of the cheerleading squad. The uniform was reward for that accomplishment, and they would wear it when the rules of the squad allowed them to. Otherwise I think they would have worn it every day, like the jocks wear their jackets. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

In the beginning when most people weren't yet trained and didn't provide links to even so it was not their own work, we saw a lot more CFR for basic documentation.  Showing it meant we could assume it was the poster's own work product so rather important nowadays to always doc.

Btw, I did a search on the title and came up with nothing that gave any details where it came from so as to be able to confirm my speculation the guy was unwise to present as a song the youth sing together as well as had parts (so triple the pain) plus we only saw the YM part as well and what if this was a stupid/too clever way to get a point across by a satire?  Do you remember seeing any details for an original source?

I'm not sure, I haven't seen any details. 

Here is an older source (8 months old): 

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/402k86/mormon_seminary_teaching_rape_is_the_girls_fault/

[Gray]

Here's something timely from Desert News:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865662783/5-dangerous-ideas-Ive-banned-when-teaching-my-daughter-about-rape-culture.html?pg=all

Quote

3. Girls should help boys have pure thoughts. I absolutely hate this mentality and was sad to see it as a source of news this week at a Utah high school, where Fox13now.comreports cheerleaders say they were allegedly told not to wear their uniforms after a male student complained the outfits were giving him impure thoughts. In our house, conversations on modesty center on how my daughters feel about their bodies and the message they want to send to the world about themselves. Modesty is about them, and they are not responsible for anyone else’s thoughts or actions. If a boy can’t keep his thoughts pure, that is something he needs to address, not something a girl needs to keep in mind when she picks out her clothes in the morning.

A much more healthy approach, IMO

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, saemo said:

The cheerleader I knew, didn't see it as violating a dress code, but as pride in the accomplishment of becoming a member of the cheerleading squad. The uniform was reward for that accomplishment, and they would wear it when the rules of the squad allowed them to. Otherwise I think they would have worn it every day, like the jocks wear their jackets. 

Jackets (typically known as letterman jackets) are available for anyone to wear if they letter in a sport or activity. Cheerleaders who letter in cheer can get letterman jackets as well as letter'd members of band, choir, and all sports.  The letter comes from the school but each person buys the jacket themselves (and they are fairly expensive so not everyone who letters chooses to buy one).

It's not something that is specific to jocks.

[saemo]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Jackets (typically known as letterman jackets) are available for anyone to wear if they letter in a sport or activity. Cheerleaders who letter in cheer can get letterman jackets as well as letter'd members of band, choir, and all sports.  The letter comes from the school but each person buys the jacket themselves (and they are fairly expensive so not everyone who letters chooses to buy one).

It's not something that is specific to jocks.

Doesn't change my point that a cheerleading uniform reflects pride in an accomplishment. From the view of the girl, I can see how boys and men telling her she can't wear it because they can't control themselves, would grate. Essentially they're saying, her accomplishment must be hidden behind walls and walls of fabric, because she offends them. 

 

Nothing in this conversation takes into account what the girl feels.  Some random boy can't control himself and he complains to the school that it is her fault, and it makes the newspapers.  That boy is a Jerk. Not to mention comes across as a super creep.  

Edited September 21, 2016 by saemo

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Here's something timely from Desert News:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865662783/5-dangerous-ideas-Ive-banned-when-teaching-my-daughter-about-rape-culture.html?pg=all

A much more healthy approach, IMO

So awesome, I posted the article on FB.

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, saemo said:

Nothing in this conversation takes into account what the girl feels.  Some random boy can't control himself and he complains to the school that it is her fault, and it makes the newspapers.  That boy is a Jerk. Not to mention comes across as a super creep.  

The boy complained to a school counselor which doesn't mean he's creepy or a jerk, just a human boy trying to do the right thing and work on his issues-even if he's not going about it the perfect way.  

Just like I don't want to see any girls thrown under the bus, i'm equally sensitive to any boys being thrown under the bus.  We don't know the boy at all and we should try to remember that.

[Calm]

 

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I'm not sure, I haven't seen any details. 

Here is an older source (8 months old): 

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/402k86/mormon_seminary_teaching_rape_is_the_girls_fault/

Thanks for looking.  I saw that as well.  It might have originally been on a FB page from what was said there or elsewhere.

[saemo]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The boy complained to a school counselor which doesn't mean he's creepy or a jerk, just a human boy trying to do the right thing and work on his issues-even if he's not going about it the perfect way.  

Just like I don't want to see any girls thrown under the bus, i'm equally sensitive to any boys being thrown under the bus.  We don't know the boy at all and we should try to remember that.

The girl did nothing wrong. She was within the rules of the school.

Complaining about your sexual fantasies to an adult and blaming the girl, who did nothing wrong, is a jerk thing to do. Granted he's a boy still trying to figure out the world. 

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Here's something timely from Desert News:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865662783/5-dangerous-ideas-Ive-banned-when-teaching-my-daughter-about-rape-culture.html?pg=all

A much more healthy approach, IMO

It's a very good approach but I made the mistake of reading the comments. I think many of the comments at the Deseret News show there is a problem with rape culture in Utah. It seems if a girl is raped, she would be quizzed about what she was wearing, was she drinking etc...  I've decided it's about thinking we have 'control.'  Many want to believe that if we obey the commandments, we would never be raped and if our daughters are smart, they will never be raped. If it does happen, you must have been something wrong because good Mormon girls don't get raped or put themselves in positions where they are raped. I do believe the commandments do offer some protection but bad things happen to those that keep the commandments and to those that do not. (Just read the BYU threads.) Most young women in American over the age of 21 drink and dress immodestly/per Mormon standards, so some Mormons seem to believe this automatically makes a victim 'a little' culpable in being raped.  I do not think most boys or adult men become rapists while living in standard American culture. The only way to fully protect yourself from rape is to never be alone with anyone ever.  But, then, some are gang raped so that doesn't even work. 

Modesty is subjective. Mormons only make up 1.6 percent of the US population. Some, seem to think high school Cheerleader uniforms are immodest. I do not. (Some NFL teams--that's a whole different story.)  Some see the picture of BYU Cheerleaders in active wear and see immodesty. I do not. I read a Christian website that discusses modesty and their standards would be considered immodest to a Mormon. Based on some comments, my daughters volleyball team were all a bunch of immodest temptresses.  I can guarantee, these girls were harboring no thoughts of dressing provocatively to attract attention. We all dress immodestly to the Muslim world.

I do think objectifying girls based on what they are wearing is in the eye of beholder and is not the responsibility of the girls. Some of my stakes rules seem to be made because it is assumed, young men or male leaders cannot behave around a group of teenage girls. Why can't girls wear shorts at girls camp?  Why can't girls swim without wearing a t-shirt over their swimsuit. The boys wear much less than girls swimming. Mormon boys even take their shirts off during hikes. During family activities at beaches and public swimming pools, are Mormon families concerned their son or husband will not be able to control themselves around normally attired women and girls?  If a leader is chaperoning at girls camp and can't handle the site of girls in shorts or swimsuits, he should not go. The issue lies with him. No amount of clothing will ever stop a boy from having impure thoughts around girls. If you see a girl in shorts and a tank top and can't control your thoughts or actions, you should not go out publicly in the summer in most of the country.  These cheerleaders were frustrated because they were doing nothing wrong but felt they were punished for the thoughts of others.  The boy did nothing wrong but sought help.  The school seems to have done everything wrong. Don't put the burden of controlling someone else's thoughts on a teenage girl.  

Dress codes are proper. It helps people wear the proper clothes at the proper time. How they are enforced is very tricky. There are many, many news stories about issues with dress code enforcement from the business world down to schools across America. It is telling that temple workers are told not to say anything about how a temple patron is dressed.  Some older ladies, I know, are quite appalled the younger generation doesn't wear pantyhose with their dresses.

This thread proves a point in another thread. Depending on your gender, you do see the world very differently and bring different thoughts and ideas about things to a discussion. And just as a point of offensive defense,  I dress modestly and teach my girls to dress modestly and I value the guidelines in The Strength of Youth. Why, because I love God.  

[Yirgacheffe]

6 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

If a leader is chaperoning at girls camp and can't handle the site of girls in shorts or swimsuits, he should not go.

Why is "he" at a girls camp, my girls went to girl scout camp, and it was girls and women?

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, saemo said:

The girl did nothing wrong. She was within the rules of the school.

Complaining about your sexual fantasies to an adult and blaming the girl, who did nothing wrong, is a jerk thing to do. Granted he's a boy still trying to figure out the world. 

I feel like when we adults can't even react maturely to this kind of thing, how can we expect teenagers to be able to do so?