bsjkki Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 1 minute ago, Yirgacheffe said: Why is "he" at a girls camp, my girls went to girl scout camp, and it was girls and women? We always have male leaders to protect all us women at girls camp. You know, the bears.
saemo Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: I feel like when we adults can't even react maturely to this kind of thing, how can we expect teenagers to be able to do so? I feel like adults should be able to frankly discuss sexual topics, without feeling that doing so is immature. 1
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 2 hours ago, saemo said: It is also normal for boys to learn to control themselves, including their thoughts. They can start by looking somewhere else, and not blame the girl for their normal biological reactions and how they respond to what the body is up to at the moment. Modesty, as I see it, is a response to God, not to some random, randy teenager, in a hallway. Well, this is certainly one way to look at the issue. Apparently you haven't been following the discussion very closely. If what you say is true, then there should be no modesty-related dress codes for adults.
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 2 hours ago, saemo said: The cheerleader I knew, didn't see it as violating a dress code, but as pride in the accomplishment of becoming a member of the cheerleading squad. The uniform was reward for that accomplishment, and they would wear it when the rules of the squad allowed them to. Otherwise I think they would have worn it every day, like the jocks wear their jackets. I suggest you read some actual school dress codes. Here's one that is apropos to this discussion. I'm hoping the cheerleader uniforms conform otherwise there is a situational-based code. Quote Provo High students take pride in their school. Students show their pride through dress and grooming. Attire which attracts undue attention, creates hygienic or safety problems or creates a disturbance is inappropriate and is not allowed. Clothing must be modest. Bare midriffs, spaghetti straps, low cut necklines, short shorts & mini skirts are not proper for school. Shorts and skirts must be at least mid-thigh/fingertip length. Clothing shall be neat and clean. Grungy, ragged, torn, and/or dirty clothing is not suitable. Undergarments/underwear must always be covered and not visible. Clothing which displays, represents, or suggests obscenity or items students cannot legally possess is not allowed. Accessories must not present a health or safety risk. Items that could be dangerous or used as a weapon (needles, spurs, spikes, chains, etc.) are not allowed. Shoes will be worn at all times. Hats may be worn at the discretion of the teacher. Hoods may not be worn in the school building. Any attire that identifies, promotes, or suggests illegal or gang activity is not permitted. Bandanas of any color may not be worn.
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gray said: Here's something timely from Desert News: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865662783/5-dangerous-ideas-Ive-banned-when-teaching-my-daughter-about-rape-culture.html?pg=all 3. Girls should help boys have pure thoughts. I absolutely hate this mentality and was sad to see it as a source of news this week at a Utah high school, where Fox13now.comreports cheerleaders say they were allegedly told not to wear their uniforms after a male student complained the outfits were giving him impure thoughts. In our house, conversations on modesty center on how my daughters feel about their bodies and the message they want to send to the world about themselves. Modesty is about them, and they are not responsible for anyone else’s thoughts or actions. If a boy can’t keep his thoughts pure, that is something he needs to address, not something a girl needs to keep in mind when she picks out her clothes in the morning. A much more healthy approach, IMO Don't you see the inherent contradiction in this statement? Boys are responsible for their thoughts, and girls should be taught responsibility for how the dress, but not what that responsibility might involve and why they should even be concerned about it. Edited September 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui
bsjkki Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I suggest you read some actual school dress codes. Here's one that is apropos to this discussion. I'm hoping the cheerleader uniforms conform otherwise there is a situational-based code. There are many situational-based dress codes. Cheerleaders wearing their uniform on game day is standard at schools across the country. Yesterday at my high school was senior toga day. Today is super hero day. They are allowed to wear things they normally would be sent home for. At the Polynesian Cultural Center BYU students are running around scantily clad.
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 4 hours ago, Rivers said: It's a cross that we men have to bare. One mark of being a real man is having discipline over our own sexuality. Blaming the women only makes us weaker. Is modesty a mark of being a real woman who has discipline over her own sexuality? I think so. 1
bluebell Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 21 minutes ago, saemo said: I feel like adults should be able to frankly discuss sexual topics, without feeling that doing so is immature. I'm sorry if what i said was confusing (though i honestly have no idea why you would think i was referring to discussing sexual topics). I'll clarify what i meant. When all we know about the young man is that he told a school counselor that he was having impure thoughts because of the cheerleader uniform and we revise that as "complaining about sexual fantasies," and when we label a young man going to see a school counselor about sexual issues as being a creep and jerk, I see that as an immature reaction to the story. Letting our righteous indignation run wild is not a mature reaction. Name calling is not a mature reaction. Judging someone harshly that we absolutely do not know is not a mature reaction. Making fun of anyone for going to a school counselor to try to get help is not a mature reaction. I've reacted immaturely in the past and will definitely react immaturely in the future. I'm not calling you out. I'm just saying that we as adults in this thread have REALLY struggled not to react emotionally and immaturely so we should probably cut kids some slack when it comes to not knowing the best way to handle their feelings. Their brains aren't even fully developed yet. They have way more of an excuse than we do. It sounds like the school counselor and the mother were the ones who caused all the commotion by not handing the boy's issue properly. 3
Calm Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 41 minutes ago, bsjkki said: We always have male leaders to protect all us women at girls camp. You know, the bears. Priesthood presence, my understanding, for blessings if needed and we did have bears at our camp that were a problem so there was always a guy who knew how to handle them down there. He would teach proper response and when safe (small bears with park rangers there as backup), lead the girls in running the bears off the grounds (form a large group to look as big as possible and make a lot of noise). Also because even though it seems ridiculous, a predator of the human kind will see a camp full of women and girls as targets, while the presence of a few men often leads him to go look elsewhere from what I have heard reported eons ago in my psych classes. 2
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 2 hours ago, bluebell said: Jackets (typically known as letterman jackets) are available for anyone to wear if they letter in a sport or activity. Cheerleaders who letter in cheer can get letterman jackets as well as letter'd members of band, choir, and all sports. The letter comes from the school but each person buys the jacket themselves (and they are fairly expensive so not everyone who letters chooses to buy one). It's not something that is specific to jocks. Many schools allow the jackets only for sports recognition. But that's a topic for another discussion..... from a music teacher who during his whole career tried to get "letter" recognition for music students. 1
bluebell Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Is modesty a mark of being a real woman who has discipline over her own sexuality? I think so. You see modesty as having discipline over our sexuality? I have never seen that definition of modesty before. Can you share the reference of where that idea is coming from?
bluebell Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Many schools allow the jackets only for sports recognition. But that's a topic for another discussion..... from a music teacher who during his whole career tried to get "letter" recognition for music students. That's really too bad. Every high school i've had experience with (which is only a handful) allowed them for all activities that were supported by the school (including band and choir).
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 2 hours ago, saemo said: Doesn't change my point that a cheerleading uniform reflects pride in an accomplishment. From the view of the girl, I can see how boys and men telling her she can't wear it because they can't control themselves, would grate. Essentially they're saying, her accomplishment must be hidden behind walls and walls of fabric, because she offends them. Nothing in this conversation takes into account what the girl feels. Some random boy can't control himself and he complains to the school that it is her fault, and it makes the newspapers. That boy is a Jerk. Not to mention comes across as a super creep. The boy did not tell them they couldn't wear the uniform. No one has said that. The question is if it meets the dress code established by the school. If yes, no worries. If no, why the double standard? It is unfair to call the boy a jerk or a creep. Unless you have insider information on the situation, you are making unjust assumptions. Based on 2nd- and 3rd-hand rumors of what he said in a confidential setting you come to this conclusion? Do you know the boy? 1
Gray Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: No, I don't see the contradiction. I guarantee teenage boys will be having such thoughts about the girls they go to school with no matter how they dress. Girls can't be responsible for what boys think of them. 2
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 1 hour ago, bsjkki said: It's This thread proves a point in another thread. Depending on your gender, you do see the world very differently and bring different thoughts and ideas about things to a discussion. And just as a point of offensive defense, I dress modestly and teach my girls to dress modestly and I value the guidelines in The Strength of Youth. Why, because I love God. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Which commandment involves virtue in relation to modesty? This is the only one I can think of.... Quote And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear.....Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.... Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. I think we should be united in our efforts to keep this very serious commandment. That includes men and women being responsible for their behavior and dress. It appears many people believe the onus is only on the males. 1
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, Gray said: No, I don't see the contradiction. I guarantee teenage boys will be having such thoughts about the girls they go to school with no matter how they dress. Girls can't be responsible for what boys think of them. I'm not arguing that girls are responsible for what boys think. They should be responsible for learning about modesty, the reasons for it, how to embrace it, and why it is important in the context of everyday living. 1
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 (edited) Double post. I'm having trouble making the comments upload correctly. Edited September 22, 2016 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, bluebell said: You see modesty as having discipline over our sexuality? I have never seen that definition of modesty before. Can you share the reference of where that idea is coming from? I'm replying to the previous comment........ "It's a cross that we men have to bare. One mark of being a real man is having discipline over our own sexuality. Blaming the women only makes us weaker."
Calm Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 (edited) Schedule got changed today so putting off resolution to bar myself from thread one more day. I am curious about responses from men who have pointed out that males are going to be aware of female features etc. and may feel such distractions would be better to not be allowed and actually enforced if they are not allowed, but ignored by women or girls anyway for whatever reason. If one grants that men are physically programmed to have strong physical and mental responses to certain physical appearances of women (usually culturally determined) and we should be realistic in taking that into account, then we should realize that homosexual men are in the same situation as heterosexual men and thus they may be as easily distracted by male attire as heterosexuals are of female. If there was some attire that was consistently triggering for homosexual men, do those who believe in strong dress standards and enforcement based in part on what males find distracting/arousing agree that efforts should be made to require men to be less distracting? I understand that a very fit body is the number one attraction (according to a couple of surveys), do you think it is appropriate to require boys in high school to wear loose shirts with long sleeves to avoid showing well built/trim arms and abs and baggy pants to avoid showing any physical development In the hips and legs? To disallow any removal of tops for sports or any other reason where a gay boy might be exposed to such, like in the gym showers? Perhaps have full torso covering bathing suits for male swimmers as is required for women to avoid showing distracting areas of their bodies? Also gay men (and women in general) tend to find shaved faces more attractive and thus distracting, so perhaps beards should become standard dress code at high school and college (BYU at least). Of course we would need to find an alternative for boys and men with little to no facial hair. Edited September 21, 2016 by Calm 4
bsjkki Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Many schools allow the jackets only for sports recognition. But that's a topic for another discussion..... from a music teacher who during his whole career tried to get "letter" recognition for music students. A point we agree on! Yay! My high school awards letters for band students and I got one while I was in high school. I'm sorry to hear you had to fight for such a recognition but glad you did!
Gray Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I'm not arguing that girls are responsible for what boys think. They should be responsible for learning about modesty, the reasons for it, how to embrace it, and why it is important in the context of everyday living. I guess it depends on what you mean by modesty. In Mormon terms modesty has something to do with the length of your sleeves, which is, in my very subjective opinion, taking things rather too far. Most Americans seem to dress pretty modestly, in my opinion.
bluebell Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 Just now, Bernard Gui said: I think we should be united in our efforts to keep this very serious commandment. That includes men and women being responsible for their behavior and dress. It appears many people believe the onus is only on the males. I just don't think you've really thought about what you are saying and carried it out to it's logical conclusion. For example, i know quite a few women who find men in suits sexually stimulating (that sounds weird but i think you know what i mean-some women find a really well fitted suit can easily lead them to have impure thoughts). Seriously. It's not rare or weird-this is how we women function as sexual beings a lot of the time. I'm not trying to be funny or make an analogy. It's a real issue. I know quite a few women who find it hard not to be lustful about men when they have muscular forearms as well. What brings out lust in men is not typically what brings out lust in women. Yet no one really puts any effort into keeping boys and men from invoking impure thoughts in women (naked men and male private parts are not typically at the top of our list of problems, for example. We don't react the same way that men do.). We are just expected to control it ourselves. It's a double standard that all of us women just accept. But it's hard to just accept it when someone is going on and on about how women have a duty to dress so that men are not sexually turned on. Why don't men have that same duty? Do you believe that men should not wear fitted suits or short sleeves because if they do, they are not taking responsibility for their dress? 2
saemo Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 19 minutes ago, bluebell said: I'm sorry if what i said was confusing (though i honestly have no idea why you would think i was referring to discussing sexual topics). I'll clarify what i meant. When all we know about the young man is that he told a school counselor that he was having impure thoughts because of the cheerleader uniform and we revise that as "complaining about sexual fantasies," and when we label a young man going to see a school counselor about sexual issues as being a creep and jerk, I see that as an immature reaction to the story. Letting our righteous indignation run wild is not a mature reaction. Name calling is not a mature reaction. Judging someone harshly that we absolutely do not know is not a mature reaction. Making fun of anyone for going to a school counselor to try to get help is not a mature reaction. I've reacted immaturely in the past and will definitely react immaturely in the future. I'm not calling you out. I'm just saying that we as adults in this thread have REALLY struggled not to react emotionally and immaturely so we should probably cut kids some slack when it comes to not knowing the best way to handle their feelings. Their brains aren't even fully developed yet. They have way more of an excuse than we do. It sounds like the school counselor and the mother were the ones who caused all the commotion by not handing the boy's issue properly. What I read is the boy was being called out on his poor school performance, which he then attributed being distracted by impure thoughts, specifically, of cheerleaders in their uniforms. If that isn't describing his sexual fantasies, I don't know what is. Come now, we aren't children. Sexual fantasy is a medical term. If you feel the need to use "impure thoughts", because adult terms are "immature" to you, fine. Doesn't change the fact that a boy used a classmate in a cheerleading uniform as an excuse for his poor performance. Doesn't change the fact he used body shaming to get out of his own responsibility. Both the responsibility of his own school performance, and of controlling his own thoughts and attention. It's HER fault. If that isn't jerk behavior, tell me what is? And it doesn't change the fact that the attention was turned from his poor performance to telling cheerleaders to not wear their uniforms! Which then turns into a discussion as to why cheerleaders shouldn't wear the uniforms. Which is based on one boy, who blamed his poor attention skills in school on a cheerleader.
bsjkki Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I think we should be united in our efforts to keep this very serious commandment. That includes men and women being responsible for their behavior and dress. It appears many people believe the onus is only on the males. The onus is on the individual. I don't see a lot of women going around trying to control what the men/boys are wearing or blaming them for their own thoughts and actions.
Bernard Gui Posted September 21, 2016 Author Posted September 21, 2016 20 minutes ago, bsjkki said: There are many situational-based dress codes. Cheerleaders wearing their uniform on game day is standard at schools across the country. Yesterday at my high school was senior toga day. Today is super hero day. They are allowed to wear things they normally would be sent home for. At the Polynesian Cultural Center BYU students are running around scantily clad. And pajama day. Speaking from long experience as a teacher, these days may be "fun," but they are very disruptive. Most serious teachers I know do not think they are a good idea. They are supposed to create school "PRIDE" and boost student body morale, but in reality they just make the classroom more chaotic. Even on these "special" days, students are expected to wear clothing that keeps the modesty part of the dress code. If we justify BYU students are running around scantily clad, I see no logical reason to enforce an LDS dress code any place. Intentionally ignoring the standards is still ignoring the standards. We would not approve of situational observation of the Word of Wisdom, a commandment for the least of us. I often suggested we would only need a one-weekend fundraiser to fund all our school activities..... if the Sheriff would just let us sell drugs, alcohol, and marijuana on campus for one week. No one ever took me up on the idea. If a man is in danger of denying the faith because he lusts after a woman in his heart, it seems we would all be on board with helping men avoid that fate, in spite of a man's supposed weaknesses. We do go out of our way to help each other observe the Word of Wisdom. Which is more important?
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