Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Kenngo1969]

22 minutes ago, Gray said:

Based on his actions I think my assessment was fair. These are not the actions of someone who is equipped to live in a pluralistic society. I'm not trying to judge the poor kid

And yet, it seems you're doing a fine job at it, nonetheless.  

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it seems clear to me that he's the victim of extreme modesty lessons in the home or at church, to the point where he's essentially non-functional. 

Ah, I see.  It's not the kid you're interested in judging, it's just his parents, his church leaders, and his church teachers, none of whom you know.  OK.  Got it.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[Gray]

26 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

And yet, it seems you're doing a fine job at it, nonetheless.  

Ah, I see.  It's not the kid you're interested in judging, it's just his parents, his church leaders, and his church teachers, none of whom you know.  OK.  Got it.

I remember what it's like to be in high school. Do you? What this boy has done is to commit social suicide, although I'm sure he wasn't aware of it when he made his complaint. It should have been obvious, though. He has not been well served by the extremist modesty rhetoric that has obviously been drilled into his head. 

He has been ill-prepared for high school, but it will get even worse for him if he does not learn this lesson and takes this attitude into the workplace. He could bring a sexual harassment complaint upon himself if he said something similar in a professional setting. 

I'm sorry if you think extremism is beyond criticism. 

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Gray

[Kenngo1969]

32 minutes ago, Gray said:

I remember what it's like to be in high school. Do you? What this boy has done is to commit social suicide, although I'm sure he wasn't aware of it when he made his complaint. It should have been obvious, though. He has not been well served by the extremist modesty rhetoric that has obviously been drilled into his head. 

He has been ill-prepared for high school, but it will get even worse for him if he does not learn this lesson and takes this attitude into the workplace. He could bring a sexual harassment complaint upon himself if he said something similar in a professional setting. 

I'm sorry if you think extremism is beyond criticism. 

 

Nope.  Sorry.  Ain't buyin' it.  Your attitude is simply an illustration of how perverse things have become in our society.  Your response is a perfect illustration of the attitude that one shouldn't speak up about anything with which one has a problem (in confidence, supposedly, to an allegedly-trustworthy adult, no less! ) lest the "up-speaker" become the problem. 

And Voila!  Here we are!  According to you, this boy apparently should have foreseen that his in-confidence conversation with an allegedly-trustworthy adult would be revealed, and that by having that discussion with that person, he was committing "social suicide."  (That is, the "up-speaker" is the problem.)

We're in agreement that at least one adult in this boy's life failed him, but I suspect we'll never agree about who that adult is and what the failure is.  

And your comment about extremism is simply a red herring.  Thanks fer playin'!

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Nope.  Sorry.  Ain't buyin' it.  Your attitude is simply an illustration of how perverse things have become in our society.

The attitude that your neighbor must change the way she dresses because you don't like your own thoughts about her is perverse. 

 

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 Your response is a perfect illustration of the attitude that one shouldn't speak up about anything with which one has a problem (in confidence, supposedly, to an allegedly-trustworthy adult, no less! ) lest the "up-speaker" become the problem. 

When was his confidence violated? 

 

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And Voila!  Here we are!  According to you, this boy apparently should have foreseen that his in-confidence conversation with an allegedly-trustworthy adult would be revealed, and that by having that discussion with that person, he was committing "social suicide."  (That is, the "up-speaker" is the problem.)

You're assuming a lot here. What's it based upon?

Edited to add: actually, I think I assumed some things too. Does anyone at the school know the identity of the boy?

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We're in agreement that at least one adult in this boy's life failed him, but I suspect we'll never agree about who that adult is and what the failure is.  

And your comment about extremism is simply a red herring.  Thanks fer playin'!

You seem to be misusing the term red herring. Religious extremism leading to aberrant behaviors is central to the story here. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Gray

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

Based on his actions I think my assessment was fair. These are not the actions of someone who is equipped to live in a pluralistic society. I'm not trying to judge the poor kid - it seems clear to me that he's the victim of extreme modesty lessons in the home or at church, to the point where he's essentially non-functional. 

What were his actions? What evidence do you have that he is non-functional? 

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I dont know why but this whole rape culture talking point really offends me. And I try to not let anything offend me.

I mean think about it. We are always told that its not the victims fault she was raped (which I completely agree with and I've never seen anyone seriously argue against). Yet somehow both the Church and I individually am responsible because we create a rape culture by teaching self respect for your body through modesty and chastity? We create a rape culture.by encouraging boys and girls not to have unchaste thoughts or encourage such thoughts in others? Or by teaching our daughters to defend themselves, we are teaching them that ita their fault of an attacker succeeds? Its absurd and offensive.

the church promotes healing and self respect. If that promotes rape then you're seriously screwed up in the head.

What you say is true. It is not the teaching of modesty that creates a rape culture. Rather, those who oppose it hypocritically ignore their own claim that rape is a crime of violence and domination, not sex. 

The notion that a young man being concerned about having inappropriate (ie., sexual) thoughts about a young woman should make the anti-"rape culture" crowd stand and applaud. Not only that, but he

sought help from a guidance counsellor who could have helped him work through his concerns rather than blow up his life for global ridicule.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

You know, I ran on the track team in high school, and our uniforms were much more skimpy than what those cheerleaders are wearing. I guess I should feel exploited and objectified? 

It's too bad that this young man has been filled up with such extremist views of modesty that he now has a sense of entitlement big enough that he believes he should have the right to dictate what his classmates can wear. 

Did you wear those skimpy track duds to class? Why not? Speaking of exploiting and objectifying.....How do you know all of these intimate details of his life and character?

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What were his actions? What evidence do you have that he is non-functional? 

 

This:

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Last week, Rozier said, the cheer coach told all the girls someone had complained the uniforms worn on game day in class were distracting a boy, causing him to have impure thoughts.

 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

I remember what it's like to be in high school. Do you? What this boy has done is to commit social suicide, although I'm sure he wasn't aware of it when he made his complaint. It should have been obvious, though. He has not been well served by the extremist modesty rhetoric that has obviously been drilled into his head. 

He has been ill-prepared for high school, but it will get even worse for him if he does not learn this lesson and takes this attitude into the workplace. He could bring a sexual harassment complaint upon himself if he said something similar in a professional setting. 

I'm sorry if you think extremism is beyond criticism. 

 

This is crazy.

I remember very well. I was graduated from high school and then spent 42 years teaching in high schools. What the boy said to a counsellor should have stayed in the counsellor's office.
He was not well-served by the school administration, by the media, and now by those such as yourself who are crucifying him. This is not the way to handle a personal problem.

The lesson he has learned is that he cannot trust a system that is supposed to protect him. I doubt he would ever set foot in a counsellor's office again, but that would be up to him.

The extremism is wholly, entirely, completely, undeniably, embarrassingly shrill on the part of those who are running him down the plank at the point of the politically correct sword. 

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Did you wear those skimpy track duds to class? Why not?

No, because it would have been very cold. We're talking short shorts and a tank top, both very thin material. And it would have looked out of place indoors.

The cheerleaders did wear their uniforms on game day. They covered up a lot more than my track uniform, and didn't look out of place. School spirit and all that. No one seemed to freak out over it.

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Speaking of exploiting and objectifying.....How do you know all of these intimate details of his life and character?

He chose to share them. 

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is crazy.

I remember very well. I was graduated from high school and then spent 42 years teaching in high schools. What the boy said to a counsellor should have stayed in the counsellor's office.
He was not well-served by the school administration, by the media, and now by those such as yourself who are crucifying him. This is not the way to handle a personal problem.

The lesson he has learned is that he cannot trust a system that is supposed to protect him. I doubt he would ever set foot in a counsellor's office again, but that would be up to him.

The extremism is wholly, entirely, completely, undeniably, embarrassingly shrill on the part of those who are running him down the plank at the point of the politically correct sword. 

I'd like to walk back what I said just a little. I assumed his identity was known. But from what I can tell all we know is some boy made this complaint. Is that correct? If his identity is still unknown then of course he hasn't committed social suicide.

Still, if he were to try something like this outside of high school he would quickly find himself in hot water. Hopefully he learns from this experience that whoever taught him this misguided idea of modesty has done him a great disservice. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

It's too bad that this young man has been filled up with such extremist views of modesty that he now has a sense of entitlement big enough that he believes he should have the right to dictate what his classmates can wear. 

If that is what actually happened and it wasn't a parent or school employee who had that sense of entitlement and instead the kid was trying to support the young women by getting help to learn to control his own thoughts so he wouldn't impose on others.

If we want to change attitudes, it is important to truly understand the problem and not just attack the easiest target because we can't be bothered to wait to make a judgment until we have the facts, even understanding we may never have them.

Is it not as much a sense of entitlement to feel one has a right to condemn another without knowing the full story and what actually happened?  Are you and others doing the same not attempting to dictate to this kid how he should think and behave without being willing to control your own thoughts in labeling him as "entitled", just as someone labeled the girls as "immodest"?

Edited September 20, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Gray said:

 

This:

 

"Someone"complained, as far as I can tell the boy has not been identified as the source of the complaint, but almost everyone is assuming that.

[Jeanne]

What I am not understanding is that although the cheerleaders are in school..in uniform..on game day..and this particular young man has a problem (not discounting the problem), what does he do 15 minutes after school should he have to go to a store..or to a drive in for a hamburger??  I mean how does this particular situation differ from general life?  I am more concerned about his well being in any social situation. 

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What you say is true. It is not the teaching of modesty that creates a rape culture. Rather, those who oppose it hypocritically ignore their own claim that rape is a crime of violence and domination, not sex. 

How modesty is taught may contribute to beliefs that one has the right to dominate others, even with violence.  Actual modesty, in and of itself is not the problem.  It is how some cultures, communities, and individuals approach it.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

21 minutes ago, Gray said:

No, because it would have been very cold. We're talking short shorts and a tank top, both very thin material. And it would have looked out of place indoors.

The cheerleaders did wear their uniforms on game day. They covered up a lot more than my track uniform, and didn't look out of place. School spirit and all that. No one seemed to freak out over it.

He chose to share them. 

It's hard to take this seriously. You couldn't wear your skimpy shorts to class because the teacher and the assistant principal would send you home post haste to dress appropriately for class.

He chose to share his feelings? Crivens. With the world or with the guidance counselor?
 

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Last week, when a male student at Timpview High School in Provo, Utah, complained to a school counselor that the uniforms worn by cheerleaders on game day were causing him to have "impure" thoughts in class, the conversation could have ended there. But it didn't. After the teen said that he was distracted by the cheerleaders' skirts and his mother emailed an administrator, the school's cheerleading coach was alerted about the concerns, and 44 girls on the Timpview Thunderbirds' cheer squads were told not to wear their uniforms to school last Friday before the football game against the Alta Hawks.

Notice the inflammatory word "complained." What do you know about his "complaint?" The purpose of dress codes is to prevent distraction. He was concerned about an issue specifically identified in the dress code. His concerns deserved fair consideration and confidentiality. School personnel are to address any student or parent issue appropriately. This was not handled appropriately. The boy is not a future rapist.

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"A common refrain for young women in Mormon-populated Utah," Kate Kelly says, "is that 'modest is hottest,' which simultaneously sexualizes girls and shames them for how they choose to dress. This is consistent with Mormon rape culture, where the burden is put on women and girls to fend off sexual advances with forethought and planning, but men are often pitted as victims of the sexual advances of women and girls." Boys at Timpview High School who are preparing to become missionaries for the Mormon Church at age 18, Kelly adds, "are in a way being warned against the (make-believe) advances of these girls in order to maintain their purity." 

"I kind of felt like it's the school almost supporting a rape culture," cheerleader JoAnna Johnson told Fox 13 Salt Lake City. "It's giving this boy power that when he grows up and does something to a girl, he can blame it on her skirt being too short."

Good grief.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Gray]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

If that is what actually happened and it wasn't a parent or school employee who had that sense of entitlement and instead the kid was trying to support the young women by getting help to learn to control his own thoughts so he wouldn't impose on others.

If we want to change attitudes, it is important to truly understand the problem and not just attack the easiest target because we can't be bothered to wait to make a judgment until we have the facts, even understanding we may never have them.

Is it not as much a sense of entitlement to feel one has a right to condemn another without knowing the full story and what actually happened?  Are you and others doing the same not attempting to dictate to this kid how he should think and behave without being willing to control your own thoughts in labeling him as "entitled", just as someone labeled the girls as "immodest"?

Well, I suppose it's possible that the material facts of the story are partially or completely wrong. But if he did indeed make some kind of request that the cheerleaders dress more modestly because they were causing him to have impure thoughts, then I don't think I would walk back my assessment.

I was socially awkward as a kid, I get it. But kids don't act out in this way unless some adults have been filling their heads with what I would call misguided and extreme modesty rhetoric. 

[Bernard Gui]

29 minutes ago, Gray said:

 

This: Last week, Rozier said, the cheer coach told all the girls someone had complained the uniforms worn on game day in class were distracting a boy, causing him to have impure thoughts.

 

Somebody told somebody that someone said something about something. And that is supposed to expose the essence of his being and the depravity of his soul? Seriously. You are jiving us, right?

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

He could bring a sexual harassment complaint upon himself if he said something similar in a professional setting. 

 

But he chose to go speak in private to a counselor.  He did not say it aloud to the cheerleaders or make as far as we know any sort of public statement.  We don't even know if he made a complaint or was just trying to get help for a personal problem (would someone making a complaint go to a counselor or an administrator?).  Would we not applaud a professional who realizing he has problems interacting with his coworkers going to a counselor to get help with that?  The boy, imo, may have done the very thing everyone intelligent and informed about such things would have wanted him to do.  Don't we want people whose thoughts processes aren't healthy to get help?

[Bernard Gui]

53 minutes ago, Gray said:

I'd like to walk back what I said just a little. I assumed his identity was known. But from what I can tell all we know is some boy made this complaint. Is that correct? If his identity is still unknown then of course he hasn't committed social suicide.

Still, if he were to try something like this outside of high school he would quickly find himself in hot water. Hopefully he learns from this experience that whoever taught him this misguided idea of modesty has done him a great disservice. 

So, if you work in a school or office and the office manager wears revealing clothing clearly in violation of the professional dress code, the principal, boss, or co-worker who pointed it out would be committing "social suicide?" This is the lesson he should learn? What's the point of having a dress code, then?

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[stemelbow]

The sad part of this story is there is a boy who thinks his problem of impure thoughts is caused by girls who wear uniforms at school and that after this boy told someone that it got back to the coach who told the cheerleaders they can't wear their uniforms at school.  Meaning the grownups involved handled this really poorly.

Rape Culture?  I don't think so.  That's overblowing this way out of proportion.  But rape is awful and should be condemned always, and any culture that contributes to rape should be condemned as well. 

 

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

What I am not understanding is that although the cheerleaders are in school..in uniform..on game day..and this particular young man has a problem (not discounting the problem), what does he do 15 minutes after school should he have to go to a store..or to a drive in for a hamburger??  I mean how does this particular situation differ from general life?  I am more concerned about his well being in any social situation. 

He is not legally required to go to a store or a drive in for a burger. He is required by law to attend school. He has a right to attend that school free of distractions. The dress code is established to eliminate distractions. It was not even reported if he objected to the uniforms on the football field. If he did, he could have stayed away from the games. He sought remedy for what he perceived as a distraction. Who is to judge whether his feelings were sincere? They certainly should not have been made public.

Here's a general life example.

I travelled between schools for my teaching job. Much of the time I ate lunch in my car because I didn't have time to go to the staff room. One year, however, my schedule allowed me to eat in the high school staff room, but after the other teachers had finished theirs. Then some of the female support staff started to eat lunch at that time. It was one dirty joke, filthy story, and juicy gossip after another. Instead of complaining to them or the principal (social suicide), to remedy the situation I went back to eating lunch in the car.  A female teacher could have filed a sexual harassment complaint and won. Not so much for a male teacher. There was really no alternative that wouldn't have put me in a very uncomfortable situation....such as making such a wussy complaint known to the rest of the school.

[Bernard Gui]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

How modesty is taught may contribute to beliefs that one has the right to dominate others, even with violence.  Actual modesty, in and of itself is not the problem.  It is how some cultures, communities, and individuals approach it.

Here is how Jesus taught it:

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Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery; But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery already in his heart. Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart; For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

This is a high standard, and he reserved some of his strongest condemnation for adulterers.  It is a high standard that teaches absolute respect, honor, and reverence for women. That is the best rape protection there can be. If one wishes to follow Christ, one has to take this teaching seriously and figure out what one has to do to obey it. Most men could not care less. Any many wishing to follow Christ has to wrestle with it. Trying to be honest about this admonition brought down scorn on Jimmy Carter as it does on any man or boy who expresses a desire to live the higher law.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

He is not legally required to go to a store or a drive in for a burger. He is required by law to attend school. He has a right to attend that school free of distractions. The dress code is established to eliminate distractions. It was not even reported if he objected to the uniforms on the football field. If he did, he could have stayed away from the games. He sought remedy for what he perceived as a distraction. Who is to judge whether his feelings were sincere? They certainly should not have been made public.

Here's a general life example.

I travelled between schools for my teaching job. Much of the time I ate lunch in my car because I didn't have time to go to the staff room. One year, however, my schedule allowed me to eat in the high school staff room, but after the other teachers had finished theirs. Then some of the female support staff started to eat lunch at that time. It was one dirty joke, filthy story, and juicy gossip after another. Instead of complaining to them or the principal (social suicide), to remedy the situation I went back to eating lunch in the car.  A female teacher could have filed a sexual harassment complaint and won. Not so much for a male teacher. There was really no alternative that wouldn't have put me in a very uncomfortable situation....such as making such a wussy complaint known to the rest of the school.

Telling an adult that his problem is that girls wear uniforms that they've always worn was stupid.  Kids do stupid things.  his problem was his, not the girls'.  The adult whom he told should have clarified that to the boy and not went off justifying his stupidity.  Adults also do stupid things.  It happens. 

[Stargazer]

On 9/15/2016 at 9:47 AM, stemelbow said:

I think you make a fair point.  We should stop throwing out the word rape in any context we can.  Rape culture has been used to describe men talking down to women, or in this case.  I think it's unhelpful.

It is not only not helpful, it trivializes actual rape, which is in fact rarer now than it has been in the past.