Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

The school should probably enforce their dress code and not have a double standard for cheerleaders.  All uniforms worn in regular classes (and not while performing the activity they were made for) should have to follow the school's dress code.

Indeed. 

[Thinking]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I acknowledged that earlier. But what is the purpose of a dress code?

This is from the student handbook from a Utah high school.

Quote

[This] High School has dress standards in place in order to promote the culture of [this high school] as one of self-respect as well as the respect of others.

 

[Thinking]

I would like to address the other part of the title. Sorry if I am repeating what another poster has already said (I'm late to the party and I haven't read all 11 pages).

I don't believe an overall emphasis on modesty promotes a rape culture. A rape culture is created when the person in power believes he/she is entitled to be sexual gratified by force or coercion without fear of punishment.

[Avatar4321]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 10:36 AM, bcuzbcuz said:

Cheerleaders uniforms need to be short: so they can perform?

Naah, I don´t think so.

Cheerleaders couldn´t do their job....without showing as much of their legs as possible...because.....

How come the male cheerleaders wear long legged gym pants? 

and how can they were leggings during winter months with no negative impact?

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Jeanne said:

The biggest reason I can think of and was told to me was distraction  This is where objective t-shirts..h  ats and tattoos came in.  So are school uniforms distracting..school colors, team day???  I don't really think so..seeing how on game day it is an expected thing   You know..after the school shootings in Denver there was another kind of distraction and that was the long coats..so I guess it varies..

As a young woman back in the day, I kind of wish we had school uniforms...the biggest distraction in school was the "haves" and "have nots" in cool clothes..!

Finally.... Someone gives the reason for modesty-based dress codes and school uniforms: to minimize  distractions. Thank you, thank you. And I am with you on uniforms. The best and easiest solution to the problem.

At the risk of being pegged a misogynistic troglodyte sexist male chauvinistic pig, I will venture on, realizing that the long knives await. When it comes to feminine modesty in relation to dress codes, what might those distractions include? The answer is obvious. The probability is low that female immodesty distracts most other females. Men and boys are by nature distracted by immodesty. It doesn't even have be immodesty that distracts them, but immodesty does make the distraction more likely. Implicit in any modesty-based dress code is a responsibility on the part of the woman to abide by a standard of modesty that does not distract males in the vicinity. Such standards can and are set and enforced by women as well as men with this understanding in mind.

But when men are distracted by immodesty - most enjoy the distraction hence its monetary value and its ubiquitous emphasis in pop culture - a few object for religious reasons and don't want to participate. If these dare speak out against a violation of the code, they are deemed guilty of fomenting a rape culture, scolded for doing what nature intended them to do, and told to shut the heck up, isolated themselves, and learn to control their thoughts.... the very thoughts the code is supposed to prevent.

So, men are put in a difficult position... 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, provoman said:

The double standard is having Cheerleader uniforms that violate the dress code.

Not so. It is that allowing them to be worn to class where similarly dressed, but not uniformed girls, would be violating the code.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

From my experience in my little world with my friends back in the late 70's and early 80's, teenage boys don't need a girl to be dressed in a cheerleader outfit to have "impure" thoughts. As long as there are hormones flowing, thoughts will happen. The biggest criticism, as I see it, is placing the responsibility on the girl.

It would be a rare adolescent boy that could make the subtle distinction between cheerleading uniforms and other forms of dress that would violate the school dress code.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 The probability is low that female immodesty distracts most other females. 

Girls are pack animals.  In my experience anything differing significantly from the norm was very distracting, if not to the individual, then the various groups.

Having said that, life is full of distractions that can cause negative thoughts, whether of impurity, frustration, jealousy, anger, etc.. Part of growing up is learning to control oneself in a chaotic environment.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

I feel sorry for this young man. Excessive obsession with modesty has made him a non-functional individual in the society that is his school. Whoever has taught him this has done him a great disservice. 

In truth, it is not the religious man or boy who resists immodesty that objectifies and sexualizes women. Rather, it is those who cynically exploit human nature and make trade of the female human body.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, provoman said:

Your argument is "apples are oranges, because both apples and oranges are round and found on trees".

As for the dress code, what is the stated purpose of the dress code at issue? I will not pretend to conjure a reason for a dress code at a school. Where I grew up males could not have long hair, sandles were not allowed, no one could wear shorts. The stated purpose of the dress where I went highschool is for teaching hygiene, grooming and address safety.

Then you missed the point of this discussion. I suggest you go back and read it. No one is talking about hygiene, grooming, and safety. Considering our context, that truly is apples and oranges.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

...and society at large.  

How so? It's not the man or boy trying to maintain respectful thoughts towards women who is dysfunctional. That would be those who exploit, objectify, and sexualize them.

Instead of condemning him, we should congratulate him for trying to resist a culture that uses the female body for profit.

[Bernard Gui]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Girls are pack animals.  In my experience anything differing significantly from the norm was very distracting, if not to the individual, then the various groups.

Having said that, life is full of distractions that can cause negative thoughts, whether of impurity, frustration, jealousy, anger, etc.. Part of growing up is learning to control oneself in a chaotic environment.

Yes, but we are talking about modesty, not frustration, anger, etc. If the pack of ladies was all for skimpy dress at work or school and one or two showed up modestly dressed, would she be considered distracting? I was once told women dress for other women, not for men. Is that true?

The office manager at Sis Gui's school wears very revealing clothing....at the front desk of the school. She is what the students, parents, and visitors see when they come in the door. This is explicitly against the profession dress code....which is somewhat liberal, but it does specify sexually provocative clothing. The faculty is mostly women, and many of them are annoyed, but the male principal has chosen not to make it an issue. Are they jealous that she gets to flaunt it and they can't?

Quote

District employees (including volunteers and substitutes) serve as role models for students and representatives of the district. Work attire should complement an environment that reflects an efficient, orderly and professionally operated organization. Employees shall dress in a manner that is appropriate for the occasion, aligns with their collective bargaining agreement/handbook, is appropriate for their assigned duties/tasks, and upholds, and encourages students to uphold the student dress policy and student freedom of expression policy.

Quote

“Dress code violations: Attire which disrupts the educational environment or otherwise interferes with the rights or opportunities of others to learn or teach, including the violation of any building-level or classroom regulations; examples include hats, tank tops, muscle shirts, sheer or see-through clothing, clothing which violates common standards of decency, clothing which advertises prohibited or illegal substances, and any gang-related attire. Students are prohibited from wearing while on school property during the regular school day and at school sponsored activities and events, clothing that exposes underwear, buttocks or the breast of a female. This does not apply to a costume or uniform worn by a students participating in a school-sponsored activity or event.”

 

Having sat through numerous hours of workplace abuse training, I have often wondered how a complaint that someone feels immodest dress to be sexual harassment would fare. Shut the heck up, grow up, get the heck out!!

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

If the dress code is for preventing distraction as you seem to agree, then I think my comment is quite relevant.  If it is only about immodesty, then perhaps it is irrelevant.

You also seem to be assuming the uniforms are actually immodest as opposed to just being against the dress code.  I don't think it has been agreed that the uniforms are immodest as opposed to put of place.

[provoman]

42 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Then you missed the point of this discussion. I suggest you go back and read it. No one is talking about hygiene, grooming, and safety. Considering our context, that truly is apples and oranges.

 

You asked for reasons for a dress code. I gave you the reason, published in the School District handbook, for the dress code where I attended school.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

If the dress code is for preventing distraction as you seem to agree, then I think my comment is quite relevant.  If it is only about immodesty, then perhaps it is irrelevant.

You also seem to be assuming the uniforms are actually immodest as opposed to just being against the dress code.  I don't think it has been agreed that the uniforms are immodest as opposed to put of place.

I'm not savvy to the female-on-female type distraction, so I'm thinking the issue here is a young boy who has apparently complained about being distracted by uniforms being worn to class. I don't think he was complaining that some of his female friends were angry or jealous of the cheerleader's clothes.

 Judging from the photos, those costumes may or may not violate the school dress code. In years past, a similar non-uniform dress might, but these are the modern times. They are certainly modest when compared with many others, including some high school, university, and professional examples. Then does it become a matter of degree? How can that be determined? 

The problem with modesty provisions in dress codes is that modesty appears to be in the eye of the beholder, and thus very difficult to define and even more difficult to enforce. And as someone has pointed out, for a boy's thoughts to wander into the impure area doesn't necessarily require immodest dress. On the other hand, moths are attracted to flames. The best way not to get burned (in the press and on message boards) is to keep your eyes shut. I learned that lesson trying to enforce the dress code in my school. And as a high-councilman checking on the kids' dress at stake dances. 

Why do you think modesty (certainly not using that specific word, but the concept) is included in dress codes? Should men just shut up, or should women have some responsibility, as implied in this example? And not for a second do I think a male can justify rape because of how a woman or girl is dressed.

Quote

 

Because all casual clothing is not suitable for the office, these guidelines will help you determine what is appropriate to wear to work. Clothing that works well for the beach, yard work, dance clubs, exercise sessions, and sports contests may not be appropriate for a professional appearance at work. Clothing that reveals too much cleavage, your back, your chest, your feet, your stomach or your underwear is not appropriate for a place of business, even in a business casual setting.

 

What would be the problem if all the ladies came to the office in bikinis? What is professional appearance? Who would care about dress standards if everyone's thoughts were politically correct? Who would be distracted?

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Finally.... Someone gives the reason for modesty-based dress codes and school uniforms: to minimize  distractions. Thank you, thank you.

The stated purpose for the dress at the high school in question is

Dress & Grooming

The Provo School District Board of Education requires all students to conform to standards that avoid extremes and, further, to standards that exemplify personal cleanliness.

 

[Rain]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

I feel sorry for this young man. Excessive obsession with modesty has made him a non-functional individual in the society that is his school. Whoever has taught him this has done him a great disservice. 

 Since we don't know who the young man is we can't know if what you said is true.  

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, provoman said:

You asked for reasons for a dress code. I gave you the reason, published in the School District handbook, for the dress code where I attended school.

The Provo School District Board of Education requires all students to conform to standards that avoid extremes and, further, to standards that exemplify personal cleanliness.

The stated purpose of the dress where I went high school is for teaching hygiene, grooming and address safety.

Did you attend Provo or Timpview HS? The code you posted has no reference to modesty? That seems really odd.

Anything goes at your school? One of us appears to be equivocating. So, I looked up the dress codes for high schools in Provo.

Here's the Provo HS dress code published on the internet. #1 is pertinent to this discussion. Does it differ from the one in their handbook?

This one is far more strict and explicit than the dress code at my high school, and we had fits trying to enforce it. Would you explain why a bare midriff, spaghetti straps, low cut necklines, short shorts & mini skirts are not proper for school? I truly want to know how people view this, but no one will respond. 
 

Quote

Provo High students take pride in their school. Students show their pride through dress and grooming. Attire which attracts undue attention, creates hygienic or safety problems or creates a disturbance is inappropriate and is not allowed.

1. Clothing must be modest.
   • Bare midriffs, spaghetti straps, low cut necklines, short shorts & mini skirts are not proper for school.
   • Shorts and skirts must be at least mid-thigh/fingertip length.
2. Clothing shall be neat and clean.
   • Grungy, ragged, torn, and/or dirty clothing is not suitable.
   • Undergarments/underwear  must always be covered and not visible.
   • Clothing which displays, represents, or suggests obscenity or items students cannot legally possess is not allowed.
3. Accessories must not present a health or safety risk.
   • Items that could be dangerous or used as a weapon (needles, spurs, spikes, chains, etc.) are not allowed.
4. Shoes will be worn at all times.
5. Hats may be worn at the discretion of the teacher.  Hoods may not be worn in the school building.
6. Any attire that identifies, promotes, or suggests illegal or gang activity is not permitted. Bandanas of any color may not be worn.

 

From Timpview HS....Parent Guide. Their student handbook is not available on line, but I imagine their code is similar to the PHS code. Do you have access to the Student Handbook for the full policy?

Quote

Dress Code: There is a dress code at Timpview High School that specifically addresses the length of shorts and skirts/dresses and also the width of straps on a top. In addition, any printed logos that promote alcohol, tobacco, drugs, profanity, or anything that may be disruptive to the learning environment are prohibited. We encourage parents to be familiar with the dress code and work with their students to dress appropriately for school. 

Here is the full context of the Provo District website dress code you cited. Inconspicuous clothing would be a hard one to define and enforce, unless it means invisible. That would really be a problem. 

Quote

Students in the Provo City School District are expected to keep themselves well groomed and neatly dressed while at school or at school functions. Clothing or grooming which is inconspicuous or extreme, or which may draw undue attention, distract, or tend to interfere with the educational atmosphere at school/school functions will not be allowed.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

41 minutes ago, Rain said:

 Since we don't know who the young man is we can't know if what you said is true.  

Thank you for this generous comment. The media and some of his community members made the poor kid out to be a nascent rapist. How despicable to treat him like that. 

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

I would like to address the other part of the title. Sorry if I am repeating what another poster has already said (I'm late to the party and I haven't read all 11 pages).

I don't believe an overall emphasis on modesty promotes a rape culture. A rape culture is created when the person in power believes he/she is entitled to be sexual gratified by force or coercion without fear of punishment.

The media slant on this story all include various quotes condemning UtahMormons for fostering a "rape culture" by placing emphasis on modesty. This culture supposedly will cause this boy to be a rapist in the future, according to the reports.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

This is from the student handbook from a Utah high school.

 

Thank you. Which school? Could you post the entire code? Are modesty standards included in the code?

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

and how can they were leggings during winter months with no negative impact?

I previously posted videos of all-male cheerleading teams dressed in baggy shorts and t-shirts while performing extreme routines. Boys can do it, but girls can't. It appears safety is really not an issue. There must be some other reason. Uniforms at Timpview are clearly quite modest for team sports venues and reflect the values of the community. The question is if they were appropriate for the classroom. The boy apparently did not think they were. It was not reported that he objected to them at games,

Quote

Rozier said the cheer coach told all the girls someone had complained the uniforms worn on game day in class were distracting a boy, causing him to have impure thoughts.

Let's say that his concerns were genuine and that it was important enough to him to venture into a guidance counselor office to express them and seek help. what then? He's outed by the counselor and things go downhill fast. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Avatar4321]

I dont know why but this whole rape culture talking point really offends me. And I try to not let anything offend me.

I mean think about it. We are always told that its not the victims fault she was raped (which I completely agree with and I've never seen anyone seriously argue against). Yet somehow both the Church and I individually am responsible because we create a rape culture by teaching self respect for your body through modesty and chastity? We create a rape culture.by encouraging boys and girls not to have unchaste thoughts or encourage such thoughts in others? Or by teaching our daughters to defend themselves, we are teaching them that ita their fault of an attacker succeeds? Its absurd and offensive.

the church promotes healing and self respect. If that promotes rape then you're seriously screwed up in the head.

[Gray]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

In truth, it is not the religious man or boy who resists immodesty that objectifies and sexualizes women. Rather, it is those who cynically exploit human nature and make trade of the female human body.

You know, I ran on the track team in high school, and our uniforms were much more skimpy than what those cheerleaders are wearing. I guess I should feel exploited and objectified? 

It's too bad that this young man has been filled up with such extremist views of modesty that he now has a sense of entitlement big enough that he believes he should have the right to dictate what his classmates can wear. 

[Gray]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

 Since we don't know who the young man is we can't know if what you said is true.  

Based on his actions I think my assessment was fair. These are not the actions of someone who is equipped to live in a pluralistic society. I'm not trying to judge the poor kid - it seems clear to me that he's the victim of extreme modesty lessons in the home or at church, to the point where he's essentially non-functional.