Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

I honestly don't know.  As a parent of the girl in the skirt I would want to know,  but with real experiences I know that some parents become mother bears no matter who is in the wrong and a teacher won't know that unless he knows the parents. 

 Thanks. I cannot imagine how that conversation could come out well. I've had some doozy meetings between me, parents, and administrators. There are some stories that still curl my toes, like the woman who called our home at 6 in the morning and reamed me out (and Mrs Gui, too, who she did not know), for being the rotten person that I am to her kid. Being called a racist is as almost as bad as being called a child molester. That one made the newspapers.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

So do you still see the wandering eye as an impure thoughts are caused by a person's clothing issue or do you see why many of us treat them separately even though there may be overlap?

The problem I see is the word "caused." It's loaded with innuendo. Even using a distant synonym like precipitated, facilitated, encouraged, hinted at, sparked the interest, caught the eye,  would be problematic in this discussion. In the case of my Spanish class boy, did his thoughts wander because of the immodest dress and exhibitionist behavior of the girl? If I say yes, I'm a really bad dude and part of the Mormon "rape culture" in the media and blogosphere. Or maybe just a troglodyte if I say it here. If I say no, then I have no explanation for it. If he told his mother what had happened (I can't imagine it, unless he was feeling guilty and wanted to talk), I used to think she would have something more strong to say, but after being in this discussion, I think she would have told him to learn not to think impure thoughts. She might have called the school and ask what the heck is going on. In which case, I would have lost my job. But after this discussion, and seeing that the Timp boy's mom participated in the "rape culture" because of her call, and how stupid she was, maybe this mother wouldn't. I  don't know. Did she cause it? She certainly intended to distract him. Does that mean she caused it? Was she sending him a message? I don't know. You tell me.

I remember sitting at the lunch table when I was a 7th grader at the Pueblo Junior High School. I was sitting alone eating my bologna sandwich across from some older girls I did not know. They said, "Look under the table," and started giggling. "What?" "Look under the table!," and laughed. I think I figured out what they were intending, but I was embarrassed to death and just stared at them. If I had looked under the table, would they have caused me to have a wandering eye? I don't know. If they had not asked me to look under the table, but I did, would they have caused my wandering eye? I don't know.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

OK. Another double post. Something weird is going on with this board. When I hit "quote" on a post, this same response comes up. It's happened 3 times with this specific post, and several times with others.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Yirgacheffe]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

(Red Green said this, not me.)

We all loved that show.

[BlueDreams]

 

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

Bluedreams, or anyone else for that matter...

What cultures out there qualify as nonrape cultures? I think it would be good to have concrete examples to compare to.

Sure that shouldn't be a problem. I may have to look around my old school notes though, in the morning. I can' remember a couple things right off the bat. Such as a stable economic or environmental system (minimal scarcity), a culture not focus on war/violence, male and female deity that are seen as intrinsic to their society in a positive war, and where both men and women are seen as equally needed contributors. I know there were more traits, I just can't remember them right now. A lot of these cultures now are smaller and isolate because the rise of nation-states often came with over-valuing of male contributions, hierarchical power, violence and domination, etc. Most cultures now are still paying the effect of such.

 

with luv,

BD

[Bernard Gui]

 

Quote

 

Calm said: BG, won't link to it this time in case that is the cause of whatever, but I also cued into you using the word "skimpy" which as "insufficient", "less than needed" or "revealing" when it comes to clothing.  To me, that is equivalent to "immodest".  Please let me know if you meant something else. 

 

Sorry I missed this. The weird formatting issue wouldn't let me answer, so I'm trying a copy/paste end around.

Well, those are terms I commonly see used in published dress codes. Some use "immodest," but most don't. I don't know if using them is supposed to be nefarious or not. Are they offensive? 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

(Red Green said this, not me.)

Quote

Yirgacheffe said: We all loved that show.

Is he your kinda guy?

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Sorry I missed this. The weird formatting issue wouldn't let me answer, so I'm trying a copy/paste end around.

Well, those are terms I commonly see used in published dress codes. Some use "immodest," but most don't. I don't know if using them is supposed to be nefarious or not. Are they offensive? 

It isn't an issue of offensive at this point, but whether it equates to immodesty in your view or did I make a faulty connection and misunderstand your use of "skimpy" as a synonym for "immodest" in this thread?  I would like to be clear on the points you have made here.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

It isn't the ability to provide social and cultural enrichment --- the ability to provide well-roundedness without the school system --- that I dislike with home schooling. It is the sheltering from adversity. As I said, I think dealing with bad teachers and bad situations is part of life experience and education --- maybe a more important part than the scholastics. 

I can't agree with that because it is contrary to my experience. We became friends with several home school family because of there attendance in my orchestra class. One family of 7 kids and one of 4 I remember very well. As the kids came of age they came to orchestra. This went on for many years. We still are in contact. Every one of their kids is a high functioning adult citizen now with great careers, great families. They are just good people. I don't think home schooling hurt them in the least. They had plenty of adversity to deal with, as do we all, without all the school hassles piled on.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Haha, Are you really asking a therapist to analyze your comments tell about you? I think it's against board policy for me to psychoanalyze board members :P. But if you want to know, I get the perspective that you're a little old school and rigid in having set policies, particularly with dress code. I get the sense that you're nervous about being a male and that your comments/concerns may be taken wrong. I get the sense that for you, sports uniforms should be, well, uniform across gender lines and that if they're not there seems to be an assumption that it has at least something to do with objectifying women. There's a lot of side stuff and it kinda reads as a little edgy or jumping to conclusions about what others are thinking with a number of comments such as the last sentence about how others are taking it. A couple have. But most here haven't.
 

I didn't realize it reached any actual conclusion. I read that some thought there may still be performance related reasons but that you had convinced yourself that there wasn't a valid reason. You would have to ask the people who run the sports. I don't. I can only show you one that has a very drastic difference that was used as an example (volleyball) and that there was a practical reason and was a personal choice, not a mandatory uniform. But beyond volleyball, I don't know, I'm not  cheerleader and never was one (or wanted to be). The only two sports I do do I don't dress "modestly" for or take the looser options. I choose the ones I'm most comfortable in while exercising. It could also be stylistic. It wasn't long ago that men playing basketball play in shorter shorts. It's changed. A lot of women prefer shorter pants or pants that don't move much, particularly when doing certain moves.
 

On movies, video games, etc women are sexualized a lot. Men also produce most of these still. I'm a comic-book movie fan, and I went through the movies I liked. Women are still in sexualized outfits...but then I thought about it and realized, so are the me n, just in different ways. For example in Gaurdians of the Galaxy the female lead is in clothes that purposely accentuate her figure. But the other main character is a hulking muscular man who is always shirtless. Avengers Natasha is in a top that goes a little low though all of her is  covered, Hawkeye has a sleeveless outfit to show bulking muscles....and then there's Thor. Nuff said. In a good chunk of Will Smith movies there is a gratuitous scene with him shirtless and exercising. Actually there's a lot of that in just about every action movie with a bulked out man. Etc. Sex appeal is used for both men and women period in media. It is used more for women, but it's an endemic thing for media entertainment in general.

Today, may not be the best day for me to go into the intricacies of rape culture. Today I had a woman (not the first) that I had to explain to her she had previously been sexually assaulted. I have had to explain this on several occasions because the dialogue we have around sexual assault and rape places responsibility on the victim for the thoughts and actions of the perpetrator. It follows a narrative where we are all victims of our sexuality, which is barely controllable and potent, if not dangerous. Where women want it or are asking for more (fill in the blank) if they are (fill in another blank). And though rape is never excusable in most of our minds, the blurrier versions of it may not "count" even though the emotional impact can be just as potent. Where violence and sex are coupled (see the media portrayals you mentioned). If we're in the U.S. we are all apart of a rape culture.

(off soap box) - but honestly, I, again, haven't seen most state you're apart of a rape culture.

Again, open and honest is fine but dialogue includes often having other's experiences ebb and flow with yours. sharing feelings isn't the end of the discussion.

I'll answer the 3 situations in a second.

With luv,

BD

Thanks. Well, you've got me pegged! I'm going to poke a little fun in a rather dreary thread. Yes, I guess being 70 would make me somewhat old school, unsure of my masculinity, rigid, hung up, whatever. Or maybe not. But I haven't always been this way. Once I was cool and hip, loose and lively, live life to the fullest, seize the day, had hair. Sadly, all that is gone now. My teaching and life style is anything but rigid, regimented, structured, in fact it got me a lot of criticism from administrators, but I believe I was an responsible, effective, and compassionate teacher. I would prefer we had some sit-down serious conversations where we could actually try to understand each other correctly before making these conclusions, but this is entertaining. Maybe sometime in the future we could have some counseling sessions. Send me the bill.  

I agree with your assessment of Avengers. I have seen and enjoyed every Avenger movie. Looks like you are a devoted fan. I loved Ant Man, the best Marvel movie ever. I think their treatment of costuming is pretty tame. The Lord of the Ring franchise treated women with great respect. I read all the books to my kids and now they are reading them to there kids. We saw the first one as a complete family of adults... the Guis and their 7 kids. After the first minute we looked at each other and said, "Oh, this is gonna be good!" Not so much with the way he treated The Hobbit. I took my orchestra to the opening day of the second movie... at the Imax in Seattle. Our kids are doing the same with Harry Potter. As their kids get older, they let them see the movies. Again, I think that series was, modesty speaking, exemplary. Some others, not so much. So, I'm not totally out of touch yet. Getting there, though.

 There are plenty of  examples of my description the men and women costume/behavior in the adventure/fantasy /monster genre that make my point valid, too. I agree that women are sexualized more than men in pop culture. It trades on women for money. I think that is deplorable. This comes not from being a bitter rigid old school guy who used to hold the door open for women at the store, but from some sense of compassion, not condescension, and sadness that I think Heavenly Father feels when he sees how men (and other women) treat women (and men).

 For the first 7 years of our marriage we chose not to have a TV and we could not afford to go to movies. Amazing how many old TVs showed up anonymously on our porch. Between the full-time and 5 part time jobs I had (teaching at a junior college was poverty level), I had no time for pop culture or entertainment, and Sister Gui was busy changing diapers and wasn't interested anyway. We were pretty much out of the loop, although we heard people talk about their favorite shows. Our two oldest boys got old enough to notice our prudery and they started to ask to play at friends' houses where the hip parents let their kids watch TV. So, to keep some kind of lid on things, as repressive parents like to do, we joined the hip crowd and bought the TV, but tried to put on some restrictions. We were overwhelmed by what we saw. It was so far removed from our sheltered life. Those were really wonderful years, though, now that I reflect on them. I think we are closer to the kids who had those years without TV than our kids who had TV. Our kids and we are desensitized now, and things that shocked us then seem like good family fare today. I am encouraged that 3 of our kids have cut the cable for their families. Maybe we did something right after all. I suppose you can read a lot of dysfunction into that statement. Just kidding!!! I use a lot of hyperbole in my writing, and sometimes in my speech. I have since grade school. I'm sure that's a fault I should correct.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

1. I don't know, but if it were me I'd probably ask both of them to pay attention and not call to attention why they weren't.

2. I'd tell the boys to pay attention and again not call attention to why they're not....and it's part of the dress code to wear a bra???

3. Probably would have done nothing and put on some head phones. But what can I say, I'm a millennial. If it was directly towards me or about me, I'd report it.

 

But if we're really letting it all hang out I can give you 2-3 examples where I was sexually harassed in school as a teen. Once as a tag team of unwanted comments by a student and a teacher. And yes, all these events were not overblown on my part. I think I mentioned the most innocuous one already because they enforced the dress code and my gym shorts were shorter than the shorts I was wearing and I got far more...unwanted... comments. 2 Were far more overt and inappropriate. 1 wasn't one incident but several that happened over months. I've been sexually harassed as an adult as well. Most recently as I walked a mile from work to Target on a whim. If you (or anyone) is curious, I was dressed in plain brown professional work pants and a tan cardigan. But it was enough to be cat called and honked at several times. One truck literally stopped and asked me if he could take me wherever I wanted t go suggestively. I don't have any lasting emotional "scars" from the events....in my head, it's just life and has been since I was about 13. but I realized, while contemplating this, that events like these do make me more uncomfortable when certain men pay attention to my looks. I had one older man today who literally gave me the same compliments that I've gotten from women in the temple on my shift (you're beautiful! You're not married, what's wrong with the boys around here to not have picked you up yet? Can I touch your hair? What do you do to get those curls?) but I was uncomfortable, even though he wasn't trying to pick me up. It wasn't his fault, I could see him agreeing with that candy bar song analogy if I'd mentioned anything (I didn't), but I've had enough sour experiences that it is touchy. I mean this as nicely as possible, you're not the only one whose been placed in uncomfortable and unwanted situations. I get how these experiences could be nerve wracking. Even dangerous. I do. But I have a hard time worrying about dress codes and how do we apply them or what is a real distraction when it's barely mattered what I've worn...I may just be sexually harassed because I'm a woman. I don't care about "helping a brother" a little with his thoughts by dressing "modestly," because in my experience my clothes sure as heck haven't done much to help and my experiences tells me it's not actually helping but hindering a sense of self-mastery. For some here, the modesty standards we keep have had some negative side effects, such as judgment calls on character based on sleeve length. They've had little impact on how much of a "distraction" I am to men or boys. It feels like vaguely barking up the wrong tree.

 

With luv,

BD

Thanks for the information. I guess I didn't make plain the professional obligations and legal jeopardy implicit in those experiences, though I tried. I'm sure that is not important. Yes, wearing a bra was part of the dress code. I didn't make the code. Not a Mormon school. I have acknowledged several times that guys can have "impure thoughts" even without modest dress. Of course they can. And it's their responsibility to keep them in check, not the woman's. 

 I have to disagree about wanting to her our brothers (and sisters) with this issue. I think it's something we all should do it. I think it is the real key to preventing abuse, rape, molestation, sizing people up sexually. We promised to do it. I don't recall any restrictions or exceptions. Everyone is at different stages of self-mastery. Let's help each other in any way we can. Some day I hope we can all be like our Heavenly Parents and look on everyone with great compassion, virtuous thoughts, charity, understanding, forgiveness. That would put an end to all this stuff we struggle with. I believe we struggle for a reason though, and that is to be schooled and refined by God. I rely on his mercy to compensate for my shortcomings. 

Sorry you had those experiences. They are awful and you did not deserve to have them. No woman should. You handled them very well, I think.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

BG, I really appreciate you taking the time to do more than what appeared to be a flippant brush off of a serious post given at your request, though I assumed it was a discretion is the better part of valor post.  I was quite shocked when I first read it, the additional comments make all the difference in the world.

You don't read as 70 to me, btw.  I had forgotten you were retired and older than me.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Calm

[BlueDreams]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks for the information. I guess I didn't make plain the professional obligations and legal jeopardy implicit in those experiences, though I tried. I'm sure that is not important. Yes, wearing a bra was part of the dress code. I didn't make the code. Not a Mormon school. Sorry you had those experiences. You handled them very well, I think.

 

Ehh....probably not as a teen. The prolonged one I got a little violent with...I wasn't a happy child at the time. All of them as a teen in school, I should have reported in some way and didn't. I don't know if I handled the one with the older man yesterday best. I was getting my car serviced and he's a nice guy/serviceman but I think to myself, how is he ever going to know that his comments may make some women uncomfortable if no woman speaks up. But I pick my battles carefully. It takes way too much energy to manage all of them or to go into detail as to the history and why it may be inappropriate.

And I got that there were professional obligations. I don't understand what they are in the schools you worked at though. So I just mentioned what I'd do. Obviously, there's a reason I don't work in schools.

with luv,

BD

Edited September 24, 2016 by BlueDreams

[Bernard Gui]

Dumb system still making double and triple posts. Very frustrating.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 

Dumb system still making double and triple posts. I deleted this and replaced it several times. To no avail.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[saemo]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Since the topic seems to have grown more legs, I have asked the mods not to shut it down....yet.

I have debated sharing this, but since we're letting it all hang out, here goes. 

Here's what is like on the front line of dress codes for a male teacher.

1. In a Spanish class I divided the class into two sections sitting with their backs to opposite walls, facing each other. I was placed 90 degrees to them at the white board. One day I observed a young man young man staring raptly ahead, not looking at the board. He happened to be LDS. I followed his eyes to see why he wasn't paying attention, and directly across from him was a young lady in a short skirt rhythmically flashing him with here knees parting and closing. I realized she was flashing him because now and then she would look at him to see his reaction. Now, what should I have done. a) Tell her to knock it off. The usual response to such a request is, "I'm not doing anything." How to follow up that question is a mystery to me without putting me in the position to say I was looking too. b) Tell him, "Eyes right, son! Didn't your parents teach you to control your thoughts?" c) Ignore it and let kids be kids. d) Report her to admin, in which case my name would be in the story instead of the boy at Timpview. Fortunately the class ended and the situation went away. What should I have done?

2. In a junior high [edit] orchestra class, I noticed some of the boys were getting frisky and giggling. Since we were supposed to be playing, I looked for the source of their distraction. A very nice attractive girl was wearing a loose sleeveless blouse and no bra. Oh great. What to do? a) Embarrass her in front of the class by asking them what was the distraction? b) Discreetly ask her what's the problem? "What are you looking at!!???" c) Get upset and tell her she's violating the dress code? d) Tell the boys not to look. "Look at what, Mr. Gui?" 

Here's what I did. After class I went to the female guidance counsellor and told her what had happened and would she speak to the girl? OK, she said. Later she told me the girl's bra had broken in PE and that the counsellor had called mom and asked her to bring a new one. She then commented that maybe I shouldn't have been looking there in the first place. Should I have complained to the admin? What if the mother asked how the counsellor found out about the bra and she was told a male teacher noticed it? I'd be in the headlines.

3. I mentioned earlier the experience in the faculty lunch room. As an itinerant teacher, I rarely had the chance to eat lunch in the staff room, so I usually ate a sandwich in the car on the way to the next school. One year, my schedule allowed me to eat in the high school staff room, but it was after the normal lunch hour. Usually I was by myself, but soon several female staff members started to eat lunch there, too. They told very raunchy jokes, used curse words, and gossiped. What should I do? a) Tell them to knock it off? b) Report them to the admin? We received mandatory harassment training every year, sometimes twice a year. It was made clear that such behavior would constitute sexual harassment and create a hostile work environment. We were instructed to report anything like this to the admin who were by law required to take action. The people in the training videos were almost invariably men harassing women. Is it possible I could claim harassment? Would I want to put myself through that ordeal?  I chose to go back to eating in my car. 

In total transparency, I feel sorry for the kid at Timpview, at the same time empathizing with the girls who were just doing their cheerleader thing. However, I have felt in real jeopardy myself in very similar circumstances.  x

I hope this explains part of where I am coming from.

One of those mandatory workplace whatever trainings way back when, the facilitator used an example of his two year old, who was throwing a two year old fit in a store. What he did was walk up to the writhing screaming child who had collapsed in the 2 year old style of a bowl of pudding and....stepped over him and paid him no more mind than that.

Exhibitionist children thrive on attention. Step over em like they aren't there.  Dunno, wander around the classroom, like nothing is going on, and just happen to stop between the two. Make everyone stand because today you decided to have a stand up performance. Move whole groups of kids around, just because you can.  Be creative. 

I feel for you, teaching jr high. Not something I would even consider doing.  The kids are experimenting and pushing boundaries, and sometimes just being little s.h.i...you know what. I'd probably be tempted to throw them all out into a snow bank. 

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Ehh....probably not as a teen. The prolonged one I got a little violent with...I wasn't a happy child at the time. All of them as a teen in school, I should have reported in some way and didn't. I don't know if I handled the one with the older man yesterday best. I was getting my car serviced and he's a nice guy but I think to myself, how is he ever going to know that his comments may make some women uncomfortable if no woman speaks up. But I pick my battles carefully. It takes way too much energy to manage all of them.

 

with luv,

BD

I think it never occurs to a lot of men that because of past experiences with sexual harassment or even assault, many women hear compliments from men they are not very familiar with and go to the "is this guy a threat or not, do I need to be careful" mode just because he is male or is physically more dominating just by size.  It isn't that we look at the guy and then think this guy is creepy (though that happens too), but that we are prepared to jump at the 'sound' before we have a chance to register what the 'sound' is.  And then that gut response colors what follows because adrenalin is in the system, the body is already uncomfortable from bracing for fight or flight...etc.. It doesn't even have to be a result of an assault or major harassment, it can just be a result of having small things happen off and on long enough or observing it happening to others and wondering if one will get attacked or harassed one day like these other women did.  And it may never go further than just that first bracing for impact and get instantly dismissed with "no way, this guy is safe, nice, great guy...", but even that brief moment of not knowing what is happening is not a happy place to be.

I assume there are some parallel experiences for men.  Maybe Bernard's worry over losing his job if he says when he got suddenly confronted with a difficult situations that he wasn't sure about how he should react is somewhat analogous, but for most women I talk to there is usually an additional awareness of physical threat, not just discomfort or emotional pain, but even fear of death.  It may be very much in the back of one's mind, but it is present way too often.  It may be an extreme reaction in the majority of cases, but it also may be biological programming for survival.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

BG, I really appreciate you taking the time to do more than what appeared to be a flippant brush off of a serious post given at your request, though I assumed it was a discretion is the better part of valor post.  I was quite shocked when I first read it, the additional comments make all the difference in the world.

You don't read as 70 to me, btw.  I had forgotten you were retired and older than me.

Yes, I really thought about it and decided that was pretty rude, childish, and vindictive and it deserved something more. I still do not like what was said about me that triggered my first responses, and I'm kind of sad that that was brushed off as some kind of invalid old guy repressive thing. Especially after recounting my experience being called a child molester in a similar conversation. My first reaction was to strike out in a anger, but I'm glad for the edit feature. Repentance is a wonderful thing. But, heck, what do I know?

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

 

Ehh....probably not as a teen. The prolonged one I got a little violent with...I wasn't a happy child at the time. All of them as a teen in school, I should have reported in some way and didn't. I don't know if I handled the one with the older man yesterday best. I was getting my car serviced and he's a nice guy/serviceman but I think to myself, how is he ever going to know that his comments may make some women uncomfortable if no woman speaks up. But I pick my battles carefully. It takes way too much energy to manage all of them or to go into detail as to the history and why it may be inappropriate.

And I got that there were professional obligations. I don't understand what they are in the schools you worked at though. So I just mentioned what I'd do. Obviously, there's a reason I don't work in schools.

with luv,

BD

I hope you saw the revised responses I made. They are more measured and thoughtful and may help us understand one another better. My apologies for my immature response. See my post to Calm.

I described the legal obligations to report harassment and abuse in detail on one of my posts. It's fairly recent. Maybe you could check it out. [EDIT]

Here is what I said, with some additions:

A good conscientious teacher must be alert to what goes on in the classroom. It's called classroom management. There are required classes in college ed programs, volumes written about it, and hours and hours of staff meetings dedicated to it. Part of our training includes how to manage just these issues. We have to sign legal documents verifying we were trained. Ignorance or casualness is not an excuse. One cannot blithely ignore them or let them pass with a clever or forceful comment without the risk of having potentially severe consequences. [EDIT] Much would depend on the nature of the harassment, but I have provided the applicable law below.

The women in the faculty room were breaking the law. I chose to ignore it, which was probably the best way to handle it. However, I could have filed a hostile work environment complaint. Don't know that I would have won. Probably would have been laughed out of the conference room. I am sure that if it were a woman sitting in a room with a bunch of foul men and she filed a complaint, it would be taken seriously. By law.

If a male student were to do to a female student what that girl did in the Spanish class (expose his private parts intentionally to see how she would react), he would be expelled, probably be required to get counseling before ever being admitted back into school, and maybe have a conversation with law enforcement. It would be much easier for me, a male teacher, to go after the boy who was being extremely abusive. If I, or any teacher, male or female, saw it but did not take action and the girl or her parents complained, we would be defenseless and could 1) lose our job, 2) lose our certificate, 3) face possible fines and imprisonment. At least that's the way it is in my state....Washington but I don't think Washington is unusual. 

I suppose I'm lucky the boy wasn't the one at Timpview. To be honest, some guys might have thought they were the luckiest dudes in the world, but others might have not felt that way. If he or his mother had complained to a counsellor or to the administration about harassment and that I did nothing, we might not be having this conversation. I frankly did not know what to do with the young lady who was sexually harassing the boy without exposing myself to accusations, but that excuse wouldn't have gotten me off the hook. 

We get training at least once a year, often more, on how to recognize and prevent harassment. These are straight out of the harassment training guidelines. It has absolutely nothing to do with me being a dirty old man. 

 It's the law.

WAC 392-190-056

Washington

Per Executive Order, Washington requires all state agencies to “conduct training and education for all employees in order to

prevent and eliminate sexual harassment in the organization.”

Sexual harassment—Definitions.

(1) As used in this chapter, "sexual harassment" means unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, sexually motivated physical contact, or other verbal or physical conduct or communication of a sexual nature between two or more individuals if:

(a) Submission to that conduct or communication is made a term or condition, either explicitly or implicitly, of obtaining an education or employment;

(b) Submission to or rejection of that conduct or communication by an individual is used as a factor in decisions affecting that individual's education or employment; or

(c) That conduct or communication has the purpose or effect of substantially interfering with an individual's educational or work performance, or of creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive educational or work environment.

(2) For the purpose of this definition, sexual harassment may include conduct or communication that involves adult to student, student to adult, student to student, adult to adult, male to female, female to male, male to male, and female to female.

 

Failure to report is a misdemeanor.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

44 minutes ago, saemo said:

One of those mandatory workplace whatever trainings way back when, the facilitator used an example of his two year old, who was throwing a two year old fit in a store. What he did was walk up to the writhing screaming child who had collapsed in the 2 year old style of a bowl of pudding and....stepped over him and paid him no more mind than that.

Exhibitionist children thrive on attention. Step over em like they aren't there.  Dunno, wander around the classroom, like nothing is going on, and just happen to stop between the two. Make everyone stand because today you decided to have a stand up performance. Move whole groups of kids around, just because you can.  Be creative. 

I feel for you, teaching jr high. Not something I would even consider doing.  The kids are experimenting and pushing boundaries, and sometimes just being little s.h.i...you know what. I'd probably be tempted to throw them all out into a snow bank. 

Yeah, but if the boy had complained to his parents and I had not reported the harassment, I would be in deep kimchee. Even though I fear no kimchee, this batch would have done me in. We sign legal forms saying we have been trained and we are accountable up to fines and imprisonment.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It isn't an issue of offensive at this point, but whether it equates to immodesty in your view or did I make a faulty connection and misunderstand your use of "skimpy" as a synonym for "immodest" in this thread?  I would like to be clear on the points you have made here.

I don't understand your question. Sorry.

[Calm]

47 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don't understand your question. Sorry.

I will wait until tomorrow when I am more awake to think about how to present the question.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

 triggered my first responses

Just to be sure we are talking about the same comments, could you quote enough of the post to identify it (blast the loss of the post numbers).

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

 I have to disagree about wanting to her our brothers (and sisters) with this issue. I think it's something we all should do it. I think it is the real key to preventing abuse, rape, molestation, sizing people up sexually. We promised to do it. I don't recall any restrictions or exceptions. Everyone is at different stages of self-mastery. Let's help each other in any way we can. 

I don't think BD is saying don't help at all given her choice of professional career.  I read her as saying changing her clothes won't in her experience change the guy's problem because the clothes aren't the real problem even if it appears that way to someone else.  She can correct me if I am wrong and I hope she will.  And changing her clothes thus would actually prevent seeing what the problem was clearly and diminish the person's ability to master his own impulses.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

I will wait until tomorrow when I am more awake to think about how to present the question.

Me too. This is ridiculous. Wait....I'm choosing to do this.