Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I'm sorry. My style tends towards the sarcastic or wry side. I realize it causes confusion. Mrs Gui says my problem is that people don't know when I'm in that mode. Which is most of the time. I don't know how to expect junior high kids to be more mature. Without using the paddle, that is. OH! There I go again!

I'm a man. I can change......................if I have to. (Red Green said this, not me.)

That is a quote I know! I also know about the duct tape, but I've never seen more than a couple of minutes. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

BG, my apologies.  I guess I made a leap because you were saying the dress codes were "modesty-based" for the purpose of avoiding distraction, you went into that for a bit and then you talked about how the young man had a right not be be distracted.  I assumed since you were talking about modesty dress codes preventing distractions, if distractions occurred they were because of lack of modesty, the young man was distracted, therefore the uniforms were immodest...

Is that clear?

 

Would you please remove that extra thingy? Are you seeing it? It's making me look positively obsessed. Well, maybe I am.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

That is a quote I know! I also know about the duct tape, but I've never seen more than a couple of minutes. 

He's my kind of guy, if that helps.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would you please remove that extra thingy? Are you seeing it? It's making me look positively obsessed. Well, maybe I am.

I am not seeing it unless you mean the link?

[Bernard Gui]

double post sorry

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

double post

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

30 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'm not sure if you are just conversing or if you are feeling like calm said you handled it wrong. I believe her to be saying she recognizes the position you are in and that you handled the situations fair if not well. 

If it was just fair, how could I have done it better? That is what I want to know. I have legal obligations, but also feel at risk if things go awry. Witness Timpview. I think they handled it poorly, but perhaps there were some legal things that weren't reported.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not seeing it unless you mean the link?

Every time one of your posts appears (addressed to me) a header from an old post appears with it, not the same one every time. No problem. Just makes me look obsessed. I know, if the shoe fits...  

Like this: 

Reply to Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

By Bernard Gui,  Monday at 04:41 PM

Finally.... Someone gives the reason for modesty-based dress codes and school uniforms: to minimize  distractions. Thank you, thank you. And I am with you on...

[Rain]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

BG, my apologies.  I guess I made a leap because you were saying the dress codes were "modesty-based" for the purpose of avoiding distraction, you went into that for a bit and then you talked about how the young man had a right not be be distracted.  I assumed since you were talking about modesty dress codes preventing distractions, if distractions occurred they were because of lack of modesty, the young man was distracted, therefore the uniforms were immodest...

Is that clear?

 

BG - thank you for sticking with this thread.  Calm's post show just how we can clear up misunderstandings and work things out. 

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

How could I have done it better? That is what I want to know. I have legal obligations, but also feel at risk if things go awry. Witness Timpview.

I honestly don't know.  As a parent of the girl in the skirt I would want to know,  but with real experiences I know that some parents become mother bears no matter who is in the wrong and a teacher won't know that unless he knows the parents. 

[Calm]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

How could I have done it better? That is what I want to know. I have legal obligations, but also feel at risk if things go awry. Witness Timpview.

I think the only ones who could give you decent advice would have to know your school and the faculty to know if you did have other options. Given the comments from other teachers, it comes across to me as in s group you did the best available, but it is possible someone at the school would know another faculty member or parent who was respected enough that she/he was considered beyond reproach by others, but open minded enough to be safe for you who could act as a mediator to get some more effective measures/options put in place...perhaps an anonymous reporting system? Eyeglass cams for all teachers to show where and how long they were looking as well as document kids' behaviour...okay, not serious there, but I wouldn't be surprised if it goes there and as a teacher I would be tempted, but then I bet one could get accused of making tapes for sexual reasons.  If they want more men as teachers, they are going to need to come up with something that protects them from legal as well as sexual harassment by students, etc, just as they need to do for something that works for women and students.  It is rotten how extremes spoil things for the majority.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It can be hard to isolate one person's comment from others when you read them one after another, but it is unfair to assume agreement exists about all criticisms if someone criticizes something else.  I think I have seen maybe two or three posters at most and they are not the most frequent posters tellling you that you need to kerp your eyes elsewhere, etc.  the rest of us appear to me to be focusingbon how language is used and can be misunderstood as well as tryingbto point out differences not to,condemn, but to explore. Munderstandable given your sensitive situation as a teacher as well as the few too far imo comments critizing you, but understanding of you and your understanding of others won't happen if we as a group can't kerp in our heads who is saying what and why and stopmmaking assumptions that group us with others who we don't actually agree with.

The breaking down of threads into sections like reddit has some advantages, so would having a colour coding rating sytem for disagreement (red for total disagreement, green for total agreement, tones for rating scumminess (said for humor, but mow I am thinking about it,  )

When I start a thread, it's my intention to answer everyone who responds to me. I have posted comments in many threads that never get acknowledged. Since that irritates me, I try not to do it to others. There have been so many comments on this topic. Being an old guy with the weakening intellect doesn't help me keep everyone and their comments straight. I do believe there have been more than a few that fault the men for letting their eyes wander. Isn't that what the whole "impure thoughts" "personal responsibility" thing was about? It didn't really bother me because it was pretty mild, but the comment that brought on this part of the discussion was a red flag for me. I've seen that one before. Whether it was intentional or not, I didn't want any part of it to be introduced because, as we see, it then all becomes about me (the man) and his weak character and not the issue. I know, I know. Gui is playing the victim card. I've been waiting for that one, so I'll just preempt the attack. 

You have good ideas. Thanks for slogging through the muck.

 

[Calm]

BG, won't link to it this time in case that is the cause of whatever, but I also cued into you using the word "skimpy" which as "insufficient", "less than needed" or "revealing" when it comes to clothing.  To me, that is equivalent to "immodest".  Please let me know if you meant something else.

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think the only ones who could give you decent advice would have to know your school and the faculty to know if you did have other options. Given the comments from other teachers, it comes across to me as in s group you did the best available, but it is possible someone at the school would know another faculty member or parent who was respected enough that she/he was considered beyond reproach by others, but open minded enough to be safe for you who could act as a mediator to get some more effective measures/options put in place...perhaps an anonymous reporting system? Eyeglass cams for all teachers to show where and how long they were looking as well as document kids' behaviour...okay, not serious there, but I wouldn't be surprised if it goes there and as a teacher I would be tempted, but then I bet one could get accused of making tapes for sexual reasons.  If they want more men as teachers, they are going to need to come up with something that protects them from legal as well as sexual harassment by students, etc, just as they need to do for something that works for women and students.  It is rotten how extremes spoil things for the majority.

Yeah, but I'm retired now and I never have to go into the school ever, ever again. My car used to want to turn in when I drove by, but I prevailed and trained it to do better. Many of the things you suggested were considered.  

We had numerous meetings over many years. The best we came up with was the note system, which failed almost immediately, and the school uniforms which the superintendent shot down. I still think that is the best solution. No modesty issues, no free expression issues, no obscenity issues, no inappropriate issues, no gang issues. There is a lot of stuff coming down on harassment, bullying, etc. It's making teaching very, very difficult. I'm glad I'm retired and not just starting today. I don't know why anyone would want to be a teacher. You do very little teaching and a whole lot of social engineering, but then you are left vulnerable because of all the accountability stuff, (please, everyone, I'm not saying teachers should not be accountable) and when the stuff hits the fan, you face the stuff storm alone. That's one of the big reasons we have a severe teacher shortage in Washington. Try to find a male elementary teacher. They are as rare as girls cheer squads in baggy shorts and t-shirts... It's starting to be the same in secondary schools. Oops. Sorry.  

But when things go right, there is no better profession. No, not one.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

The picture doesn't show up for me.  I will try and see if hitting the formatting option works, otherwise I am not sure what to do if it is not an unusual word and easy to find like skimpy.  Can't do time codes to identify posts anymore, unfortunately or post number.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

. I do believe there have been more than a few that fault the men for letting their eyes wander. Isn't that what the whole "impure thoughts" "personal responsibility" thing was about? 

Not for me and I think most women I talk to about it.  Our problem in this context with "impure thoughts" is when it is the girls that are labeled as responsible in some way for those thoughts.  That may seem like nitpicking, but wandering eyes and impure thoughts are two different issues and need to be addressed separately.  For example, a wandering eye issue extreme could be a guy who looks at you intentionally up and down and says "I am undressing you right now in my mind".  Otoh, the personal responsibility would be some guy or woman for that matter saying "the way you dress makes me want to undress you right now", though usually criticized in modesty discussions when it is phrased in a negative way, 'the kid wouldn't be having those impure thoughts if those uniforms weren't so short' or much worse, 'she was asking for it with ______'.  The wandering eye may be hooked up to the personal responsibility, but it doesn't have to be.

[Bernard Gui]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

The picture doesn't show up for me.  I will try and see if hitting the formatting option works, otherwise I am not sure what to do if it is not an unusual word and easy to find like skimpy.  Can't do time codes to identify posts anymore, unfortunately or post number.

None on this one. Must have been happening from my end. Who knows. Don't worry about it.

[Bernard Gui]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not for me and I think most women I talk to about it.  Our problem in this context with "impure thoughts" is when it is the girls that are labeled as responsible in some way for those thoughts.  That may seem like nitpicking, but wandering eyes and impure thoughts are two different issues and need to be addressed separately.  For example, a wandering eye issue extreme could be a guy who looks at you intentionally up and down and says "I am undressing you right now in my mind".  Otoh, the personal responsibility would be some guy or woman for that matter saying "the way you dress makes me want to undress you right now", though usually criticized in modesty discussions when it is phrased in a negative way, 'the kid wouldn't be having those impure thoughts if those uniforms weren't so short' or much worse, 'she was asking for it with ______'.  The wandering eye may be hooked up to the personal responsibility, but it doesn't have to be.

I tried to make that distinction when I said there is a difference between lust and attraction. I never have and never would suggest any woman ever "asked for it." That is abhorrent. I would say, however, that just as men should be responsible for their thoughts, so women should be responsible in choosing the clothing they wear. To me, that is the responsible thing for both sexes to do, and shows common consideration, equal responsibility, equal treatment, and keeping our LDS promise to bear one another's burdens.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

I tried to make that distinction when I said there is a difference between lust and attraction. I never have and never would suggest any woman ever "asked for it." That is abhorrent. I would say, however, that just as men should be responsible for their thoughts, so women should be responsible in choosing the clothing they wear. To me, that is the responsible thing for both sexes to do, and shows common consideration, equal responsibility, equal treatment, and keeping our LDS promise to bear one another's burdens.

So do you still see the wandering eye as an impure thoughts are caused by a person's clothing issue or do you see why many of us treat them separately even though there may be overlap?

[rongo]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I know a lot of home school kids who have superior educations, are well balanced and socially competent, and very successful in higher ed and the world of work.

Wise home school parents provide their kids with those opportunities. For example, being an elective program, orchestra was open to home school kids as were foreign languages, PE, and other classes. Over the past 20 years (since it became more popular and successful) I had many home school kids in my groups...they were such excellent students that I advertised my program to home school parents. They came, even if they were exposed to immodesty. Perhaps not being exposed 7 hours a day five days a week 52 weeks a year for 6 years isn't such a bad idea. Isn't that what we want to create in our church groups?

It isn't the ability to provide social and cultural enrichment --- the ability to provide well-roundedness without the school system --- that I dislike with home schooling. It is the sheltering from adversity. As I said, I think dealing with bad teachers and bad situations is part of life experience and education --- maybe a more important part than the scholastics. 

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Could you please explain exactly what my comments about sports uniforms tell you about me? We all need to be validated, and I'm sensing that my feelings aren't valid. In fact, even my life experiences have been invalidated. What does that leave me with? Repentance, I guess. Or just shut the heck up, like some have suggested.  Being informed that sharing experiences and observations tell someone "more" about me than about the general situation of life to me means "shut the heck up."

Haha, Are you really asking a therapist to analyze your comments tell about you? I think it's against board policy for me to psychoanalyze board members :P. But if you want to know, I get the perspective that you're a little old school and rigid in having set policies, particularly with dress code. I get the sense that you're nervous about being a male and that your comments/concerns may be taken wrong. I get the sense that for you, sports uniforms should be, well, uniform across gender lines and that if they're not there seems to be an assumption that it has at least something to do with objectifying women. There's a lot of side stuff and it kinda reads as a little edgy or jumping to conclusions about what others are thinking with a number of comments such as the last sentence about how others are taking it. A couple have. But most here haven't.
 

Quote

 

I would appreciate your comments on the specifics of the three examples I have provided. 

The argument was being made that cheerleader and certain sports uniforms are the way they are for safety or performance reasons. I provided examples of men doing the exact same activities and sports, some even more extreme, dressed in baggy or long shorts and t-shirts. Obviously safety or performance is not the issue. So I simply want to know what's the real reason for the difference?

 

I didn't realize it reached any actual conclusion. I read that some thought there may still be performance related reasons but that you had convinced yourself that there wasn't a valid reason. You would have to ask the people who run the sports. I don't. I can only show you one that has a very drastic difference that was used as an example (volleyball) and that there was a practical reason and was a personal choice, not a mandatory uniform. But beyond volleyball, I don't know, I'm not  cheerleader and never was one (or wanted to be). The only two sports I do do I don't dress "modestly" for or take the looser options. I choose the ones I'm most comfortable in while exercising. It could also be stylistic. It wasn't long ago that men playing basketball play in shorter shorts. It's changed. A lot of women prefer shorter pants or pants that don't move much, particularly when doing certain moves.
 

Quote

 

Same with news shows, media events, video games (the type played mostly by boys). It's rife in our pop culture. I'll add this one....in adventure and action movies, the guys are always armed to the teeth, dressed in Kevlar and combat gear, but the gals are in tanks, short shorts, or skin-tight spandex. None of that awesome stuff helps the guys because they end up dead or beaten to a pulp, and the gals end up being the ones kicking the bad guy's/monster's butt. At the risk of again being misunderstood, I ask why is that? Are the ladies' skin more impervious to bullets, monster fangs, poisonous gas, venom? They don't get cut or scratched? Maybe it's to show the power of women or empower them....they can do it alone without all that paraphernalia and the clueless guys in all their GI Joe gear, who are dumb at best. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't matter. 

In the PP&M Talking Candy Bar Blues, a guy is out enjoying a candy bar minding his business, can't finish it and gives it to a kid, and the world comes down on him. I make observations about the difference between men and women dress in a discussion where I am just going about my business and get lumped in with a church that has a "rape culture. I'm part of the "rape culture?" That appears to be the message. The song expresses exactly how I feel. 

Some of the men here are thinking, "Geez. What a wuss." So be it. I'm being open and honest, and isn't that what men are supposed to learn to do? I'm learning it isn't such a great idea.

 

On movies, video games, etc women are sexualized a lot. Men also produce most of these still. I'm a comic-book movie fan, and I went through the movies I liked. Women are still in sexualized outfits...but then I thought about it and realized, so are the me n, just in different ways. For example in Gaurdians of the Galaxy the female lead is in clothes that purposely accentuate her figure. But the other main character is a hulking muscular man who is always shirtless. Avengers Natasha is in a top that goes a little low though all of her is  covered, Hawkeye has a sleeveless outfit to show bulking muscles....and then there's Thor. Nuff said. In a good chunk of Will Smith movies there is a gratuitous scene with him shirtless and exercising. Actually there's a lot of that in just about every action movie with a bulked out man. Etc. Sex appeal is used for both men and women period in media. It is used more for women, but it's an endemic thing for media entertainment in general.

Today, may not be the best day for me to go into the intricacies of rape culture. Today I had a woman (not the first) that I had to explain to her she had previously been sexually assaulted. I have had to explain this on several occasions because the dialogue we have around sexual assault and rape places responsibility on the victim for the thoughts and actions of the perpetrator. It follows a narrative where we are all victims of our sexuality, which is barely controllable and potent, if not dangerous. Where women want it or are asking for more (fill in the blank) if they are (fill in another blank). And though rape is never excusable in most of our minds, the blurrier versions of it may not "count" even though the emotional impact can be just as potent. Where violence and sex are coupled (see the media portrayals you mentioned). If we're in the U.S. we are all apart of a rape culture.

(off soap box) - but honestly, I, again, haven't seen most state you're apart of a rape culture.

Again, open and honest is fine but dialogue includes often having other's experiences ebb and flow with yours. sharing feelings isn't the end of the discussion.

I'll answer the 3 situations in a second.

With luv,

BD

[Yirgacheffe]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I provided examples of men doing the exact same activities and sports, some even more extreme, dressed in baggy or long shorts and t-shirts

I watched a lot of cheerleadind videos after the first videos were put up here and in them I saw moves that would not be safe in long or baggy shorts, for instance any routine that has people standing on their team members thighs would not be practical in long shorts or even pants. In one of the videos put up here the young men flipping around had their midsection and darn close to upper chest exposed so loose t-shirts would also be problematic.  On another note, I don't think after high school I ever watched a cheerleading routine so these videos were startling to me.  Adding young men to cheerleading has added height!  It is amazing how high in the air big, boy cheerleaders can toss small, girl cheerleaders.

[Yirgacheffe]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are the ladies' skin more impervious to bullets, monster fangs, poisonous gas, venom? They don't get cut or scratched? Maybe it's to show the power of women or empower them....they can do it alone without all that paraphernalia and the clueless guys in all their GI Joe gear, who are dumb at best. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't matter. 

Funny I remember as a kid watching all those stupid monster movies from the 1950's on TV Saturday morning and being angry that all the women just either cowered against a wall, or screamed. 

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Since the topic seems to have grown more legs, I have asked the mods not to shut it down....yet.

I have debated sharing this, but since we're letting it all hang out, here goes. 

Here's what is like on the front line of dress codes for a male teacher.

1. In a Spanish class I divided the class into two sections sitting with their backs to opposite walls, facing each other. I was placed 90 degrees to them at the white board. One day I observed a young man young man staring raptly ahead, not looking at the board. He happened to be LDS. I followed his eyes to see why he wasn't paying attention, and directly across from him was a young lady in a short skirt rhythmically flashing him with here knees parting and closing. I realized she was flashing him because now and then she would look at him to see his reaction. Now, what should I have done. a) Tell her to knock it off. The usual response to such a request is, "I'm not doing anything." How to follow up that question is a mystery to me without putting me in the position to say I was looking too. b) Tell him, "Eyes right, son! Didn't your parents teach you to control your thoughts?" c) Ignore it and let kids be kids. d) Report her to admin, in which case my name would be in the story instead of the boy at Timpview. Fortunately the class ended and the situation went away. What should I have done?

2. In a junior high [edit] orchestra class, I noticed some of the boys were getting frisky and giggling. Since we were supposed to be playing, I looked for the source of their distraction. A very nice attractive girl was wearing a loose sleeveless blouse and no bra. Oh great. What to do? a) Embarrass her in front of the class by asking them what was the distraction? b) Discreetly ask her what's the problem? "What are you looking at!!???" c) Get upset and tell her she's violating the dress code? d) Tell the boys not to look. "Look at what, Mr. Gui?" 

Here's what I did. After class I went to the female guidance counsellor and told her what had happened and would she speak to the girl? OK, she said. Later she told me the girl's bra had broken in PE and that the counsellor had called mom and asked her to bring a new one. She then commented that maybe I shouldn't have been looking there in the first place. Should I have complained to the admin? What if the mother asked how the counsellor found out about the bra and she was told a male teacher noticed it? I'd be in the headlines.

3. I mentioned earlier the experience in the faculty lunch room. As an itinerant teacher, I rarely had the chance to eat lunch in the staff room, so I usually ate a sandwich in the car on the way to the next school. One year, my schedule allowed me to eat in the high school staff room, but it was after the normal lunch hour. Usually I was by myself, but soon several female staff members started to eat lunch there, too. They told very raunchy jokes, used curse words, and gossiped. What should I do? a) Tell them to knock it off? b) Report them to the admin? We received mandatory harassment training every year, sometimes twice a year. It was made clear that such behavior would constitute sexual harassment and create a hostile work environment. We were instructed to report anything like this to the admin who were by law required to take action. The people in the training videos were almost invariably men harassing women. Is it possible I could claim harassment? Would I want to put myself through that ordeal?  I chose to go back to eating in my car. 

In total transparency, I feel sorry for the kid at Timpview, at the same time empathizing with the girls who were just doing their cheerleader thing. However, I have felt in real jeopardy myself in very similar circumstances.  x

I hope this explains part of where I am coming from.

1. I don't know, but if it were me I'd probably ask both of them to pay attention and not call to attention why they weren't.

2. I'd tell the boys to pay attention and again not call attention to why they're not....and it's part of the dress code to wear a bra???

3. Probably would have done nothing and put on some head phones. But what can I say, I'm a millennial. If it was directly towards me or about me, I'd report it.

 

But if we're really letting it all hang out I can give you 2-3 examples where I was sexually harassed in school as a teen. Once as a tag team of unwanted comments by a student and a teacher. And yes, all these events were not overblown on my part. I think I mentioned the most innocuous one already because they enforced the dress code and my gym shorts were shorter than the shorts I was wearing and I got far more...unwanted... comments. 2 Were far more overt and inappropriate. 1 wasn't one incident but several that happened over months. I've been sexually harassed as an adult as well. Most recently as I walked a mile from work to Target on a whim. If you (or anyone) is curious, I was dressed in plain brown professional work pants and a tan cardigan. But it was enough to be cat called and honked at several times. One truck literally stopped and asked me if he could take me wherever I wanted t go suggestively. I don't have any lasting emotional "scars" from the events....in my head, it's just life and has been since I was about 13. but I realized, while contemplating this, that events like these do make me more uncomfortable when certain men pay attention to my looks. I had one older man today who literally gave me the same compliments that I've gotten from women in the temple on my shift (you're beautiful! You're not married, what's wrong with the boys around here to not have picked you up yet? Can I touch your hair? What do you do to get those curls?) but I was uncomfortable, even though he wasn't trying to pick me up. It wasn't his fault, I could see him agreeing with that candy bar song analogy if I'd mentioned anything (I didn't), but I've had enough sour experiences that it is touchy. I mean this as nicely as possible, you're not the only one whose been placed in uncomfortable and unwanted situations. I get how these experiences could be nerve wracking. Even dangerous. I do. But I have a hard time worrying about dress codes and how do we apply them or what is a real distraction when it's barely mattered what I've worn...I may just be sexually harassed because I'm a woman. I don't care about "helping a brother" a little with his thoughts by dressing "modestly," because in my experience my clothes sure as heck haven't done much to help and my experiences tells me it's not actually helping but hindering a sense of self-mastery. For some here, the modesty standards we keep have had some negative side effects, such as judgment calls on character based on sleeve length. They've had little impact on how much of a "distraction" I am to men or boys. It feels like vaguely barking up the wrong tree.

 

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

Bluedreams, or anyone else for that matter...

What cultures out there qualify as nonrape cultures? I think it would be good to have concrete examples to compare to.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Calm