Emphasis on Modesty=Rape Culture in Utah

[Bernard Gui]

Since the topic seems to have grown more legs, I have asked the mods not to shut it down....yet.

I have debated sharing this, but since we're letting it all hang out, here goes. 

Here's what is like on the front line of dress codes for a male teacher.

1. In a Spanish class I divided the class into two sections sitting with their backs to opposite walls, facing each other. I was placed 90 degrees to them at the white board. One day I observed a young man young man staring raptly ahead, not looking at the board. He happened to be LDS. I followed his eyes to see why he wasn't paying attention, and directly across from him was a young lady in a short skirt rhythmically flashing him with here knees parting and closing. I realized she was flashing him because now and then she would look at him to see his reaction. Now, what should I have done. a) Tell her to knock it off. The usual response to such a request is, "I'm not doing anything." How to follow up that question is a mystery to me without putting me in the position to say I was looking too. b) Tell him, "Eyes right, son! Didn't your parents teach you to control your thoughts?" c) Ignore it and let kids be kids. d) Report her to admin, in which case my name would be in the story instead of the boy at Timpview. Fortunately the class ended and the situation went away. What should I have done?

2. In a junior high [edit] orchestra class, I noticed some of the boys were getting frisky and giggling. Since we were supposed to be playing, I looked for the source of their distraction. A very nice attractive girl was wearing a loose sleeveless blouse and no bra. Oh great. What to do? a) Embarrass her in front of the class by asking them what was the distraction? b) Discreetly ask her what's the problem? "What are you looking at!!???" c) Get upset and tell her she's violating the dress code? d) Tell the boys not to look. "Look at what, Mr. Gui?" 

Here's what I did. After class I went to the female guidance counsellor and told her what had happened and would she speak to the girl? OK, she said. Later she told me the girl's bra had broken in PE and that the counsellor had called mom and asked her to bring a new one. She then commented that maybe I shouldn't have been looking there in the first place. Should I have complained to the admin? What if the mother asked how the counsellor found out about the bra and she was told a male teacher noticed it? I'd be in the headlines.

3. I mentioned earlier the experience in the faculty lunch room. As an itinerant teacher, I rarely had the chance to eat lunch in the staff room, so I usually ate a sandwich in the car on the way to the next school. One year, my schedule allowed me to eat in the high school staff room, but it was after the normal lunch hour. Usually I was by myself, but soon several female staff members started to eat lunch there, too. They told very raunchy jokes, used curse words, and gossiped. What should I do? a) Tell them to knock it off? b) Report them to the admin? We received mandatory harassment training every year, sometimes twice a year. It was made clear that such behavior would constitute sexual harassment and create a hostile work environment. We were instructed to report anything like this to the admin who were by law required to take action. The people in the training videos were almost invariably men harassing women. Is it possible I could claim harassment? Would I want to put myself through that ordeal?  I chose to go back to eating in my car. 

In total transparency, I feel sorry for the kid at Timpview, at the same time empathizing with the girls who were just doing their cheerleader thing. However, I have felt in real jeopardy myself in very similar circumstances.  x

I hope this explains part of where I am coming from.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Yirgacheffe said:

This is where my mother would have come in with, "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all, there is never any call for meanness".

Unfortunately some will see it as 'compassion'.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have debated sharing this, but since we're letting it all hang out, here goes. 

Here's what is like on the front line of dress codes for a male teacher.

1. In a Spanish class I divide the class into two sections, sitting with their backs to opposite walls, facing each other. I was placed 90 degrees to them at the white board. One day I observed a young man young man staring raptly ahead, not looking at the board. He happened to be LDS. I followed his eyes to see why he wasn't paying attention, and directly across from him was a young lady in a short skirt rhythmically flashing him with here knees parting and closing. Now, what should I have done. a) Tell her to knock it off. The usual response to such a request is, "I'm not doing anything." b) Tell him, "Eyes right, son!" c)Ignore it and let kids be kids. d) Report her to admin, in which case my name would be in the story instead of the boy at Timpview. Fortunately the class ended and the situation went away. What should I have done?

2. In a 9th grade orchestra class, I noticed some of the boys were getting frisky and giggling. Since we were supposed to be playing, I looked for the source of their distraction. A very nice attractive girl was wearing a loose sleeveless blouse and no bra. Oh great. What to do? a) Embarrass her in front of the class? b) Discreetly ask her what's the problem? c) Get upset and tell her she's violating the dress code? d) Tell the boys not to look. Look at what, Mr. Gui? 

Here's what I did. After class I went to the female guidance counsellor and told her what had happened and would she speak to the girl? OK, she said. Later she told me the girl's bra had broken in PE and that the counsellor had called mom and asked her to bring a new one. She then commented that maybe I shouldn't have been looking there in the first place. Should I have complained to the admin? What if the mother asked how the counsellor found out about the bra and she was told a male teacher noticed it? I'd be in the headlines.

3. I mentioned earlier the experience in faculty lunch room. As an itinerant teacher, I rarely had the chance to eat lunch in the staff room, so I usually ate a sandwich in the car on the way to the next school. One year, my schedule allowed me to eat in the high school staff room, but it was after the normal lunch hour. Usually I was by myself, but soon several female staff members started to eat lunch there, too. They told raunchy jokes, used curse words, and gossiped. What should I do? a) Tell them to knock it off? b) Report them to the admin? I chose to go back to eating in my car. We received mandatory harassment training every year, sometimes twice a year. It was made clear that such behavior would constitute sexual harassment. The people in the training videos were almost invariably men harassing women. 

In total transparency, I feel sorry for the kid at Timpview, at the same time empathizing with the girls who were just doing their cheerleader thing. However, I have felt in real jeopardy myself in very similar circumstances.

I hope this explains part of where I am coming from.

Online schooling sounds more and more practical.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I'm a little touchy on this subject because in the last few years I've retrained my brain.  For years, I never questioned anything and was a little self-righteous.  It was before I had teens and learned.  My mothers method of teaching modesty was to point out all the girls that were not dressing up to lds standards.  She was subtly degrading them even though they were not Mormon but it was her way of emphasizing the importance of Mormon modesty standards.  I remember feeling quite guilty as a  teen for wearing a tennis shirt while playing tennis that did not have cap sleeves. It had very wide straps but did not go down the shoulder.  I continued this practice of judging others, especially Mormon girls, if they did not live up to my definition of modestly standards and being shocked their mothers would let them run around like that.  

Well fast forward a few years and I had this experience.  My son did not get married in the temple.  He married a beautiful, lovely girl and she looked beautiful on her wedding day.  The first thought I had when I saw her dress was,'Oh, my it's not up to Mormon standards. Oh dear, what will all my family think.'  After the wedding pics were posted my daughter got Facebook messages from friends with the response, 'I'm so disappointed her dress wasn't modest.'  Really.  No congrats or positive comments, just--I'm sad her dress wasn't modest.  

I then did a very thorough study of the New Testament and decided this is not how Christ sees people.  He doesn't judge them by the clothes they wear or if they are believers or not.  I decided from then on to see people how I think Christ sees them.  To treat them how he would have me treat them.  To think about people they way I think Christ thinks about us.  I do not believe he loves us more because we are Mormon but that we have a special work to do because we are Mormon.  As his servants, we must be worthy to do his work but we must not feel superior or get self-righteous or we won't be as effective representing the Savior.  When people judge people by their dress before being happy for them on their wedding day, there is a problem.  

Bernard Gui, I know we don't see eye to eye on this topic and sometimes, we have talked past each other, but I respect you for engaging in the conversation.  I am on this board to hear opposing viewpoints as well as share my own.  I have absolutely discovered I can change the way I think and I can reassess long held beliefs and come to different conclusions.  I am very thankful to have others to learn from and try to understand their viewpoint.  

Thank you for the very kind comments. I understand what you are saying. Please don't think I'm being snarky, negative, or combative, but that was the same Jesus who told men if they look on women with lust, they commit adultery, deny the faith, and will be cast out if they don't repent. My desire is that since we are brothers and sisters who have promised to bear one another's burdens, we should do whatever we can to lift someone else's burden whatever it may be, including helping our brothers keep that commandment. 

[Bernard Gui]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Online schooling sounds more and more practical.

That puts me out of a job. For many of us who have to deal with it, the answer is school uniforms. It's so easy, so logical, so non-problematic, so inexpensive, so liberating, so pro-educational, so non-confrontive....well, such a great idea. What do you think I should have done differently?

Edited September 23, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[bcuzbcuz]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Since the topic seems to have grown more legs, I have asked the mods not to shut it down....yet.

I have debated sharing this, but since we're letting it all hang out, here goes. 

Here's what is like on the front line of dress codes for a male teacher.

1. In a Spanish class I divided the class into two sections sitting with their backs to opposite walls, facing each other. I was placed 90 degrees to them at the white board. One day I observed a young man young man staring raptly ahead, not looking at the board. He happened to be LDS. I followed his eyes to see why he wasn't paying attention, and directly across from him was a young lady in a short skirt rhythmically flashing him with here knees parting and closing. I realized she was flashing him because now and then she would look at him to see his reaction. Now, what should I have done. a) Tell her to knock it off. The usual response to such a request is, "I'm not doing anything." How to follow up that question is a mystery to me without putting me in the position to say I was looking too. b) Tell him, "Eyes right, son!" c) Ignore it and let kids be kids. d) Report her to admin, in which case my name would be in the story instead of the boy at Timpview. Fortunately the class ended and the situation went away. What should I have done?

2. In a 9th grade orchestra class, I noticed some of the boys were getting frisky and giggling. Since we were supposed to be playing, I looked for the source of their distraction. A very nice attractive girl was wearing a loose sleeveless blouse and no bra. Oh great. What to do? a) Embarrass her in front of the class by asking them what was the distraction? b) Discreetly ask her what's the problem? "What are you looking at!!???" c) Get upset and tell her she's violating the dress code? d) Tell the boys not to look. "Look at what, Mr. Gui?" 

Here's what I did. After class I went to the female guidance counsellor and told her what had happened and would she speak to the girl? OK, she said. Later she told me the girl's bra had broken in PE and that the counsellor had called mom and asked her to bring a new one. She then commented that maybe I shouldn't have been looking there in the first place. Should I have complained to the admin? What if the mother asked how the counsellor found out about the bra and she was told a male teacher noticed it? I'd be in the headlines.

3. I mentioned earlier the experience in the faculty lunch room. As an itinerant teacher, I rarely had the chance to eat lunch in the staff room, so I usually ate a sandwich in the car on the way to the next school. One year, my schedule allowed me to eat in the high school staff room, but it was after the normal lunch hour. Usually I was by myself, but soon several female staff members started to eat lunch there, too. They told very raunchy jokes, used curse words, and gossiped. What should I do? a) Tell them to knock it off? b) Report them to the admin? We received mandatory harassment training every year, sometimes twice a year. It was made clear that such behavior would constitute sexual harassment. We were instructed to report anything like this to the admin. The people in the training videos were almost invariably men harassing women. Is it possible I could claim harassment? Would I want to put myself through that ordeal?

In total transparency, I feel sorry for the kid at Timpview, at the same time empathizing with the girls who were just doing their cheerleader thing. However, I have felt in real jeopardy myself in very similar circumstances. I chose to go back to eating in my car.

I hope this explains part of where I am coming from.

You have stated your interpretation of what was happening, sit: 1: "I realized she was flashing him...." Sit. 2: "some of the boys were getting frisky and giggling", because "a very attractive girl...no blouse" 

Maybe you weren't focusing on the most important details in the classroom and you're merely interpreting events in the classroom by your own measures. Teenage boys are distracted by many things, equally by a girl without a bra as with a girl with a bra, a tight skirt as with a loose skirt,  a girl with long hair or with a girl with short hair. Or, as I remember it, last nights hockey game or the latest favourite comedy show. Almost anything was used as a distraction, rather than listening to the teacher.

I can now reflect upon that nothing the teacher thought of or reacted to concerned me, as a student, in the slightest. If the teacher was looking at attractive girls, I couldn't care less. 

As a classroom teacher of almost 40 years, the attractiveness of a student was not within my realm of measurements, scholastically nor otherwise. 

 

[Bernard Gui]

42 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

You have stated your interpretation of what was happening, sit: 1: "I realized she was flashing him...." Sit. 2: "some of the boys were getting frisky and giggling", because "a very attractive girl...no blouse" 

Maybe you weren't focusing on the most important details in the classroom and you're merely interpreting events in the classroom by your own measures. Teenage boys are distracted by many things, equally by a girl without a bra as with a girl with a bra, a tight skirt as with a loose skirt,  a girl with long hair or with a girl with short hair. Or, as I remember it, last nights hockey game or the latest favourite comedy show. Almost anything was used as a distraction, rather than listening to the teacher.

I can now reflect upon that nothing the teacher thought of or reacted to concerned me, as a student, in the slightest. If the teacher was looking at attractive girls, I couldn't care less. 

As a classroom teacher of almost 40 years, the attractiveness of a student was not within my realm of measurements, scholastically nor otherwise. 

 

Oh my. My interpretation? I'm an experienced teacher, father of 6 boys and dare I say it, a beautiful daughter, youth leader, former bishop, and a guy trying to be like Jesus. If you reflect for a moment, your comments are the very reason I hesitated bringing this up. It's my job to create an atmosphere as free of distractions as possible. Even for hormonal crazed adolescent boys. I simply stated the facts of the situations that apply directly to this subject. In neither case did my eyes linger longer. In fact in the first instance I could not see what the boy saw. This one of the fundamental reasons schools have dress codes. Pages and pages of thread trying to ferret out the real reasons for school dress codes related to modesty, all for naught. Am I lying or just hopelessly mislead?

"Maybe you weren't focusing?" Crivens. You didn't understand a word I said, but leaped immediately to the conclusion that I'm the one with the sexist dirty mind.  This attitude appears to me to be exactly that of the vast majority of female teachers in the school who refused to enforce the dress code because they thought the girls were just being cute. It's the very thing that is used to shut men up.

This is not helpful. Forgive me for asking, but are you male or female?

Edited September 23, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[rongo]

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

Online schooling sounds more and more practical.

Except for the fact that is nothing like the total experience of in-person school (including negative experiences. The value of the adversity one encounters in brick-and-mortar school [i.e., bad teathers, bad experiences, etc.] is also important). The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has long been trying to set up a universal completely computer driven curriculum and system. In my experience (14 years as a public school English, science, and German teacher; father of four), the worst school imaginable is always better than the best online program. 

Even if one is exposed to immodesty.

[Bernard Gui]

22 minutes ago, rongo said:

Except for the fact that is nothing like the total experience of in-person school (including negative experiences. The value of the adversity one encounters in brick-and-mortar school [i.e., bad teathers, bad experiences, etc.] is also important). The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has long been trying to set up a universal completely computer driven curriculum and system. In my experience (14 years as a public school English, science, and German teacher; father of four), the worst school imaginable is always better than the best online program. 

Even if one is exposed to immodesty.

I know a lot of home school kids who have superior educations, are well balanced and socially competent, and very successful in higher ed and the world of work.

Wise home school parents provide their kids with those opportunities. For example, being an elective program, orchestra was open to home school kids as were foreign languages, PE, and other classes. Over the past 20 years (since it became more popular and successful) I had many home school kids in my groups...they were such excellent students that I advertised my program to home school parents. They came, even if they were exposed to immodesty. Perhaps not being exposed 7 hours a day five days a week 52 weeks a year for 6 years isn't such a bad idea. Isn't that what we want to create in our church groups?

I agree with the assessment of computer-based education and testing. It's awful, even thought the Gates think it's the wave of the future.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

I didn't say they were practical, just looking more practical than they were.  Currently tutoring a kid who is taking online courses; so frustrating guessing at what the teacher means or requires and keeping on a decent schedule because she is seriously overbooked and my mornings start at 2 PM and this was supposed to help...she is destined to be a professional musician and is required to practice minumum four hours a day with Sat. Booked for gifted school and tons of performances and she is only 13.

[bcuzbcuz]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh my. My interpretation? I'm an experienced teacher, father of 6 boys, youth leader, former bishop, and a guy trying to be like Jesus. If you reflect for a moment, your comments are the very reason I hesitated bringing this up. It's my job to create an atmosphere as free of distractions as possible. Even for hormonal crazed adolescent boys. I simply stated the facts of the situation. That's one of the fundamental reasons schools have dress codes. Pages and pages of thread trying to ferret out the real reasons for school dress codes, all for naught. Am I lying or just hopelessly mislead?

"Maybe you weren't focusing?" Crivens. You didn't understand a word I said, but leaped immediately to the conclusion that I'm the one with the sexist dirty mind.  This attitude appears to me to be exactly that of the vast majority of female teachers in the school who refused to enforce the dress code because they thought the girls were just being cute.

This is not helpful.

I think I understood every word and every context of what you said. Your heart may be in the right place but trying to pay attention to where or what teenage boys are focusing on is only looking at the problem and not at the solution. 

I enforced dress codes, and not just the ones I agreed with. but understanding the wild hormones of teenage boys (and girls) goes a long way towards focusing on the real and proper issues. If a class isn't interesting enough (and even when it is, nothing guarantees a 100% interest level) then students will have their focus elsewhere. A teacher needs to focus on the message. I taught English reading comprehension. That was the focus. That was what I graded upon. Hormones wasn't on  my agenda. 

[Bernard Gui]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

I didn't say they were practical, just looking more practical than they were.  Currently tutoring a kid who is taking online courses; so frustrating guessing at what the teacher means or requires and keeping on a decent schedule because she is seriously overbooked and my mornings start at 2 PM and this was supposed to help...she is destined to be a professional musician and is required to practice minumum four hours a day with Sat. Booked for gifted school and tons of performances and she is only 13.

I get that! As my world-famous violin teacher told me, "If you want to be the best, music must become your religion." I have personally witnessed this kind of pressure put on talented kids many times....and some not so talented. Some survive, some don't', but to get in the top tier, it's what has to be done. There is a lot of pyramid scheming in the music ed business. I am satisfied just to sit in the first violin section and play music I love. Second violin? That's a different story....  Seriously though, another wiser professor told me, "If only the sweetest birds sang, the forest would be a very quiet place." That has been my philosophy.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

48 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I think I understood every word and every context of what you said. Your heart may be in the right place but trying to pay attention to where or what teenage boys are focusing on is only looking at the problem and not at the solution. 

I enforced dress codes, and not just the ones I agreed with. but understanding the wild hormones of teenage boys (and girls) goes a long way towards focusing on the real and proper issues. If a class isn't interesting enough (and even when it is, nothing guarantees a 100% interest level) then students will have their focus elsewhere. A teacher needs to focus on the message. I taught English reading comprehension. That was the focus. That was what I graded upon. Hormones wasn't on  my agenda. 

I gave three experiences that apply directly to this topic from 42 years of teaching several thousand students. From that you conclude I didn't focus on proper messages. At least 40 of my former students are now professional musicians or music educators. I didn't focus on real and proper issues but instead on the length of skirts, lack of bras, etc., etc., etc?  Perhaps you could have paid more attention to the discipline you were teaching. 

This is becoming personal, just as I predicted. Instead of focusing on the issue we focus on my supposed character flaws. I'm not playing this game. Thank you.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

21 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I think I understood every word and every context of what you said. Your heart may be in the right place but trying to pay attention to where or what teenage boys are focusing on is only looking at the problem and not at the solution. 

I enforced dress codes, and not just the ones I agreed with. but understanding the wild hormones of teenage boys (and girls) goes a long way towards focusing on the real and proper issues. If a class isn't interesting enough (and even when it is, nothing guarantees a 100% interest level) then students will have their focus elsewhere. A teacher needs to focus on the message. I taught English reading comprehension. That was the focus. That was what I graded upon. Hormones wasn't on  my agenda. 

I felt the opposite. He saw the boys were misbehaving and feeling uncomfortable then he searched to find out what was distracting them and found it. He asked us what to do to solve the problem because he couldn't find a great solution that solved everything. 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, Rain said:

I felt the opposite. He saw the boys were misbehaving and feeling uncomfortable then he searched to find out what was distracting them and found it. He asked us what to do to solve the problem because he couldn't find a great solution that solved everything. 

That nails my comments exactly to the wall. A good conscientious teacher must be alert to what goes on in the classroom. It's called classroom management. There are required classes in college ed programs, volumes written about it, and hours and hours of staff meetings dedicated to it. Part of our training includes how to manage just these issues. We have to sign verifying we were trained. Ignorance or casualness is not an excuse. One cannot blithely ignore them without consequences.

If a male student were to do to a female student what that girl did in the Spanish class (expose his private parts intentionally to see how she would react), he would be expelled, probably be required to get counseling before ever being admitted back into school, and maybe have a conversation with law enforcement. If  I, or any teacher, male or female, saw it but did not take action and the girl or her parents complained, we would be defenseless and would 1) lose our job, 2) lose our certificate, 3) face possible fines and imprisonment. At least that's the way it is in my state....Washington.

I suppose I'm lucky the kid wasn't the one at Timpview. To be honest, some guys might have thought they were the luckiest dudes in the world, but others might have not felt that way. If he or his mother had complained to a counsellor or to the administration that I did nothing, we might not be having this conversation. I frankly did not know what to do, but that wouldn't have gotten me off the hook.

We get training at least once a year, often more, on how to recognize and prevent harassment. These are straight out of the harassment training guidelines. It has absolutely nothing to do with me being a dirty old man.

 It's the law. I just don't get this. Please help me understand.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

BD: Please see my response to Rain.  I have acknowledged several times that it is not just a male problem, but I believe it is more pronounced for men. My feelings are my own and I am entitled to have them, as are you. 

As a high councilman, one of my duties was to attend stake youth dances and be the guy at the door checking for dress standards. On my first night, I realized this was going to turn into the same situation that I had faced at school.... challenging a young woman's dress left me open to "what are you looking at?" At school and at church I suggested that enforcing dress standards for girls should be done by the women, not the men. At church this was taken to heart. At school, only a handful of women stepped up to the plate. Most of the faculty women thought there was no problem and the girls were just being cute. I don't understand that word.

Are you familiar with "it's plain to see which hand has the chocolate" the Peter/Paul/Mary Talking Candy Bar Blues? A guy innocently offers a piece of chocolate to a kid on the playground, the kid runs away, a crowd gathers, someone shouts, "Pervert!", the police show up, the guy protests his innocence, but the cop asks him to show his hands, one of which is covered in melted chocolate, and then the line, "It's plain to see which hand has the chocolate." He was referring to a current ad for M&Ms that showed kids with melted chocolate all over their hands or holding up clean hands with M&Ms. "It's plain to see which hand has the chocolate," the ad finishes. It may seem ridiculous to you, but this is what it feels like to me. My feelings are my own and I am entitled to have them, as are you.

No, I hadn't heard that statement/phrase and am still confused what you meant when tying that to the volleyball uniforms. comment

And I disagree that it's more pronounced. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that based on my work and what I deal with on a fairly regular basis. Our gendered dialogue around sex can shape very much how "pronounced" it is. I've watched and helped people navigate their issues and have come to realize that our perspectives on our sexuality can drastically alter our awareness, desires, and actions. I'm not basing this just on feelings, I'm basing this on work, my study of these topics that's probably a little more than most, as well as personal experience.

You are entitled to your feelings, but feelings do not make something true just because we feel it. It also doesn't mean that my comment was actually unfair or harshly critiquing men. I have empathy to both men and women for some of the crappy ways we've socialized them. I still have social taboos and judgments, when it comes to modesty, that are based on these messages that I got as well. Some are based on other values I have that I've formatted that may not always be correct (I believed you had a point on the volleyball discrepancy and agreed until I saw evidence that made sense). I still work through some. But having empathy and acknowledging emotions doesn't mean that we shouldn't dissect what's happening to really see if this is warranted.

 

With luv,

BD

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I think I understood every word and every context of what you said. Your heart may be in the right place but trying to pay attention to where or what teenage boys are focusing on is only looking at the problem and not at the solution. 

I enforced dress codes, and not just the ones I agreed with. but understanding the wild hormones of teenage boys (and girls) goes a long way towards focusing on the real and proper issues. If a class isn't interesting enough (and even when it is, nothing guarantees a 100% interest level) then students will have their focus elsewhere. A teacher needs to focus on the message. I taught English reading comprehension. That was the focus. That was what I graded upon. Hormones wasn't on  my agenda. 

What if students aren't paying attention, is it not intelligent to figure out why to see if it is something you can do something about...like harassment of another student?  You talk about looking at the solution, is that not what BG was trying to do?  BG needs to figure out the problem if he is going to be part of the solution, which means looking enough to figure out what is going on..  I find the criticism he mentioned of 'why were you looking' absurd in that situation.  And not all young men and young women aren't paying attention are at fault for doing so and may need help in learning to deal with it, such as being bullied, abused at home or suffering from the loss of a family member.  If we have compassion for those, why not for hormone triggered problems?

The young men not handling the braless girl needed to grow up, but it could have caused more attention and embarrassment to deal with them then and there.  One, imo, needs to judge short and long term harm to the individuals involved with the possible benefits of taking a teaching moment or protecting a student.  BG doesn't get to choose what students he gets and if he has three immature boys in his class who need significant lessons in behaviour, sometimes he just isn't going to make a difference.  He is the one dealing with the situation, knows what kind of support he will or will not get from others, knows what affects his job.  That aspect I have no issues with as far as I can tell from his narrative, though I am not always on the same page of how a problem is labeled by him and the cause of it (I don't agree with him the Timp View cheerleading uniforms were immodest, for example, though I see them as inappropriate because they were against school standards and that teaches kids they can make excuses for standards besides lifealtering situations, tradition and fun are not good reasons in my opinion to ignore standards...change the standards if necessary, don't ignore them or make unnecessary exceptions)...off topic, ignore for the purpose of discussion, simply explaining how I see BG's difficult position of often being caught between a rock and a parent/administrator, etc.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

No, I hadn't heard that statement/phrase and am still confused what you meant when tying that to the volleyball uniforms. comment

And I disagree that it's more pronounced. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that based on my work and what I deal with on a fairly regular basis. Our gendered dialogue around sex can shape very much how "pronounced" it is. I've watched and helped people navigate their issues and have come to realize that our perspectives on our sexuality can drastically alter our awareness, desires, and actions. I'm not basing this just on feelings, I'm basing this on work, my study of these topics that's probably a little more than most, as well as personal experience.

You are entitled to your feelings, but feelings do not make something true just because we feel it. It also doesn't mean that my comment was actually unfair or harshly critiquing men. I have empathy to both men and women for some of the crappy ways we've socialized them. I still have social taboos and judgments, when it comes to modesty, that are based on these messages that I got as well. Some are based on other values I have that I've formatted that may not always be correct (I believed you had a point on the volleyball discrepancy and agreed until I saw evidence that made sense). I still work through some. But having empathy and acknowledging emotions doesn't mean that we shouldn't dissect what's happening to really see if this is warranted.

 

With luv,

BD

 

Could you please explain exactly what my comments about sports uniforms tell you about me? We all need to be validated, and I'm sensing that my feelings aren't valid. In fact, even my life experiences have been invalidated. What does that leave me with? Repentance, I guess. Or just shut the heck up, like some have suggested.  Being informed that sharing experiences and observations tell someone "more" about me than about the general situation of life to me means "shut the heck up."

I would appreciate your comments on the specifics of the three examples I have provided. 

The argument was being made that cheerleader and certain sports uniforms are the way they are for safety or performance reasons. I provided examples of men doing the exact same activities and sports, some even more extreme, dressed in baggy or long shorts and t-shirts. Obviously safety or performance is not the issue. So I simply want to know what's the real reason for the difference?

Same with news shows, media events, video games (the type played mostly by boys). It's rife in our pop culture. I'll add this one....in adventure and action movies, the guys are always armed to the teeth, dressed in Kevlar and combat gear, but the gals are in tanks, short shorts, or skin-tight spandex. None of that awesome stuff helps the guys because they end up dead or beaten to a pulp, and the gals end up being the ones kicking the bad guy's/monster's butt. At the risk of again being misunderstood, I ask why is that? Are the ladies' skin more impervious to bullets, monster fangs, poisonous gas, venom? They don't get cut or scratched? Maybe it's to show the power of women or empower them....they can do it alone without all that paraphernalia and the clueless guys in all their GI Joe gear, who are dumb at best. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't matter. 

In the PP&M Talking Candy Bar Blues, a guy is out enjoying a candy bar minding his business, can't finish it and gives it to a kid, and the world comes down on him. I make observations about the difference between men and women dress in a discussion where I am just going about my business and get lumped in with a church that has a "rape culture. I'm part of the "rape culture?" That appears to be the message. The song expresses exactly how I feel. 

Some of the men here are thinking, "Geez. What a wuss." So be it. I'm being open and honest, and isn't that what men are supposed to learn to do? I'm learning it isn't such a great idea.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I get that! As my world-famous violin teacher told me, "If you want to be the best, music must become your religion." I have personally witnessed this kind of pressure put on talented kids many times....and some not so talented. Some survive, some don't', but to get in the top tier, it's what has to be done. There is a lot of pyramid scheming in the music ed business. I am satisfied just to sit in the first violin section and play music I love. Second violin? That's a different story....  Seriously though, another wiser professor told me, "If only the sweetest birds sang, the forest would be a very quiet place." That has been my philosophy.

She is so gifted, even if there was no sound her hands themselves would be a work of art.  Her mother works when she is not actingbas chaffeur and all her money goes to paying for this, but it is her passion and she feels like it is home being among those of her class so her parents are willing to sacrifice.  We only hope her passion doesn't get burnt out by everything else.  I wish she could take her time with stuff like math and geography, but understand the fear that if she drops out she will be too far behind so they don't make exceptions.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I'm sensing that my feelings aren't valid. In fact, even my life experiences have been invalidated. What does that leave me with? Repentance, I guess. Or just shut the heck up, like some have suggested.  Being informed that sharing experiences and observations tell someone "more" about me than about the general situation of life to me means "shut the heck up."...

 I make observations.... in a discussion where I am just going about my business and get lumped in with a church that has a "rape culture. I'm part of the "rape culture?" That appears to be the message....

Some of the men here are thinking, "Geez. What a wuss." So be it. I'm being open and honest, and isn't that what men are supposed to learn to do? I'm learning it isn't such a great idea.

It can be hard to isolate one person's comment from others when you read them one after another, but it is unfair to assume agreement exists about all criticisms if someone criticizes something else.  I think I have seen maybe two or three posters at most and they are not the most frequent posters tellling you that you need to kerp your eyes elsewhere, etc.  the rest of us appear to me to be focusingbon how language is used and can be misunderstood as well as tryingbto point out differences not to,condemn, but to explore. Munderstandable given your sensitive situation as a teacher as well as the few too far imo comments critizing you, but understanding of you and your understanding of others won't happen if we as a group can't kerp in our heads who is saying what and why and stopmmaking assumptions that group us with others who we don't actually agree with.

The breaking down of threads into sections like reddit has some advantages, so would having a colour coding rating sytem for disagreement (red for total disagreement, green for total agreement, tones for rating scumminess (said for humor, but mow I am thinking about it,  )

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

The young men not handling the braless girl needed to grow up, but it could have caused more attention and embarrassment to deal with them then and there.  One, imo, needs to judge short and long term harm to the individuals involved with the possible benefits of taking a teaching moment or protecting a student.  BG doesn't get to choose what students he gets and if he has three immature boys in his class who need significant lessons in behaviour, sometimes he just isn't going to make a difference.  He is the one dealing with the situation, knows what kind of support he will or will not get from others, knows what affects his job.  That aspect I have no issues with as far as I can tell from his narrative, though I am not always on the same page of how a problem is labeled by him and the cause of it (I don't agree with him the Timp View cheerleading uniforms were immodest, for example, though I see them as inappropriate because they were against school standards and that teaches kids they can make excuses for standards besides lifealtering situations, tradition and fun are not good reasons in my opinion to ignore standards...change the standards if necessary, don't ignore them or make unnecessary exceptions)...off topic, ignore for the purpose of discussion, simply explaining how I see BG's difficult position of often being caught between a rock and a parent/administrator, etc.

They were 7th, 8th, and 9th graders. Not sure how I would expect them to grow up. Maybe this? "OK guys. I know what you were looking at. You need to be more mature." "Mr. Gui. How did you know what we were looking at if you weren't looking too? How come we're in trouble?" "Well, you didn't see me looking and giggling and getting frisky, did you?" "Huh?"

Just for the record, I stated several times that I did not think the uniforms were immodest. In fact, I noted more than once (I'm not going to look it up), that they were quite appropriate for games and more modest than many out there. My question was if they met the dress standards of Timpview for classroom dress. Unfortunately the school hasn't published the dress code. We had the same issue at our high school, but some felt the uniforms did not meet the dress standard, but were be excused because it was game-day wear. Either way, I don't believe they were immodest. This isn't off topic at all. It's what we have been talking about. 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

She is so gifted, even if there was no sound her hands themselves would be a work of art.  Her mother works when she is not actingbas chaffeur and all her money goes to paying for this, but it is her passion and she feels like it is home being among those of her class so her parents are willing to sacrifice.  We only hope her passion doesn't get burnt out by everything else.  I wish she could take her time with stuff like math and geography, but understand the fear that if she drops out she will be too far behind so they don't make exceptions.

I hope it works out for her. It's not an easy thing. I have a friend who thought he was a talented violinist and he was, but he got a rude awakening when he auditioned for the Denver Symphony (a 3rd tier group), and walked into a room with over a hundred even more talented violinists. One of my sons, Consordino, is a fantastic cello player and a superb teacher. Looking for another job last year, there was exactly 1 university cello position open in the entire country. 

In our area, playing a stringed instrument, taking lessons from the best teachers, having the expensive instruments and bows and the $180 set of strings twice a year, being in the best high school orchestra and youth symphony seems compulsory for our Chinese and Korean students. Many of them excel....not just at music. I have met my share of "Tiger Moms." But very, very few go on to become professional musicians. It's just a resume enhancer, but boy does it take the time and money! That's why I said there is a bit of pyramid scheming in the music ed business. What teacher wouldn't want to be in the school with the most kids taking high-powered lessons and playing instruments more expensive than the teacher's?

I recently judged an orchestra contest in an upscale suburb of Seattle. Microsoft area. 6 schools. Three of the groups were exclusively Oriental in make up, 2 were a vast majority, and 1 had a good balance of ethnicity. Guess which ones were the largest (80+ members) and most formidable? I am not speaking against them. No charges of racism, please, folks. It's just been my experience. The few boys I have taught who did become musicians were sometimes considered a disappointment by their families because they didn't go to a big university and study law, science, or medicine.

Remind me to tell you the incredible story about the 12-year-old Chinese boy (whose father was a neighbor of Bill Gates), his $75,000 cello, his demand to learn to play the Saint-Saens cello concerto within 1 year of his beginning instruction from a high powered teacher, and the concert hall his father built at the house for his first recital accompanied by members of the Northwest Sinfonietta. His second recital this year is to be the Tchaikovsky Rococo Variations. Yeah! I want him in my school orchestra!!!! I will bet Bill Gates' mansion that he will not be a professional cellist.

Which is all beside the point. But the children of the first Vietnamese, Cambodian, Korean, and Chinese immigrants that came to our area were serious students, absolutely without discipline problems, and modest almost to a fault. They were quite compatible with the LDS kids....almost made us look hedonistic. They must have had a "rape culture." Not so much with the 2nd and 3rd generations as they get Americanized, but some, such as our daughter-in-law and her daughters are.

We all play with the hands we are dealt.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

They were 7th, 8th, and 9th graders. Not sure how I would expect them to grow up. Maybe this? "OK guys. I know what you were looking at. You need to be more mature." "Mr. Gui. How did you know what we were looking at if you weren't looking too? How come we're in trouble?" "Well, you didn't see me looking and giggling, did you?" "Huh?"

I'm not sure if you are just conversing or if you are feeling like calm said you handled it wrong. I believe her to be saying she recognizes the position you are in and that you handled the situations fair if not well. 

[Bernard Gui]

18 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'm not sure if you are just conversing or if you are feeling like calm said you handled it wrong. I believe her to be saying she recognizes the position you are in and that you handled the situations fair if not well. 

I'm sorry. I was trying to stay on topic. My style tends towards the sarcastic or wry side. I realize it causes confusion. Mrs Gui says my problem is that people don't know when I'm in that mode. Which is most of the time. I don't know how to expect junior high boys to be more mature. They are the very definition of immaturity. Without using the paddle, that is. OH! There I go again!

I'm a man. I can change......................if I have to. (Red Green said this, not me.)

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

BG, my apologies.  I guess I made a leap because you were saying the dress codes were "modesty-based" for the purpose of avoiding distraction, you went into that for a bit and then you talked about how the young man had a right not be be distracted.  I assumed since you were talking about modesty dress codes preventing distractions, if distractions occurred they were because of lack of modesty, the young man was distracted, therefore the uniforms were immodest...

Is that clear?