Licked Cupcake & Used Chewing Gum Poll

[rpn]

deleted

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by rpn

[bcuzbcuz]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Never heard the analogy and never heard the one about the board and nails.  

I find teaching with analogies, similes, and parables to be effective.  I expect that regardless of what we teach or how we teach it there will be someone that can be offended.  For example, the Johnny Lingo film.  For me it was always about how a person that others despised and ridiculed could be made into the most beautiful and noble person all through being valued and treated well.  Who knew that important message would be totally lost in favor of gender politics or any other thing.

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that hurt feelings and aggrandizing those with hurt feelings is a waste of time.  The world is about hurt feelings and learning to deal with it.  Having worked in the Middle East and North Africa I saw some things that our American citizens will never comprehend or imagine.  Their "hurt" feelings just don't mean that much to me.

Lastly, in a world that is as sex crazed, over-hyped sexuality, if it feels good do it, I have little respect or patience for those who are puppets of the sexual revolution.  Any attempt, however poorly, to teach the holiness and value of our bodies and the responsibility that comes with procreation should be promoted and upheld.  If it offends you to hear that you should not follow every passion your body demands then it is not the Church that has a problem, but it is you.  I don't think there is any need to go further.  For those with ears let them hear and for those that don't they will never hear and never listen.  

"Puppets of the sexual revolution"? That's got to be the funniest line yet. 

That you don't understand a woman's point of view doesn't surprise me. You said it yourself. You have little respect or patience for opinions you see as (from your following post) from "obviously another agenda or motivation".

It's not a conspiracy, it's just some people who have a different opinion than yours.

[bsjkki]

I wish the poll included the gender of the poll takers.  That would be interesting information to include.

[Sky]

52 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

CFR that President Kimball wrote or said that sexual sin can never be fully repented of. 

He didn't exactly say that, but he did say this:

"Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is absolutely no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."

- The Miracle of Forgiveness

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Thinking said:

In the Girls raised in the Church thread, Storm Rider wrote...

I'm wondering if the members of this board remember being taught these object lessons.

My girls tell me everything, never heard it then. Now I asked them today...never heard it. 

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Sky said:

He didn't exactly say that, but he did say this:

"Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is absolutely no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."

- The Miracle of Forgiveness

 

 

 

 

That sounds like a typical male response to something they would never endure. 

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Ok, I enjoy Johnny Lingo (mostly as a dated curiosity at this point) but whoever thought that should be shown in a temple was seriously off their rocker.
(I assume in a waiting area, but still...)

I saw it many times in the temple. In the Idaho falls temple they have a room set up specifically for traveling youth groups to watch movies in after they had already been baptized and confirmed and were waiting for the rest of the group to get done. Other temples must have a similar set up. 

Good times!  We all loved those movies.

[Storm Rider]

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I saw it many times in the temple. In the Idaho falls temple they have a room set up specifically for traveling youth groups to watch movies in after they had already been baptized and confirmed and were waiting for the rest of the group to get done. Other temples must have a similar set up. 

Good times!  We all loved those movies.

The only time I got to see that film was in seminary.  I think I have seen it twice.  I really enjoyed it also.

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Eek! said:

I voted "other" because I don't remember those specific analogies, but do remember similar ones that had the same debilitating message. 

I also remember a priesthood lesson in the late 70's wherein the senior high priest present taught that a girl who had been raped needed to confess and repent, even though it was non-consensual, because she had still "committed the act".  I regret not standing up to him. 

They say that cowards die a thousand deaths, but a brave man only dies once.  Many if not most of us have taken the easy way out, much to our shame.

[Thinking]

I think it's probable that these object lessons were created by some youth teacher and passed along to others, who then passed them along...

[CV75]

For goodness' sake, from 1990 and 1983 even: "It wasn’t until I was reading a book by Jeffrey R. Holland, then president of BYU, that I found understanding in a verbalized form. In However Long and Hard the Way, President Holland discussed the analogy of life being a board. Each time we sin we drive a nail through that board. Unfortunately, many people think that when we repent the nails are removed, but the nail holes remain. He stated that no holes remain because after repenting we have an entirely new board. I found this analogy even more beautiful after realizing that the only holes that do remain are the ones in Christ’s hands and feet. His sacrifice was complete."

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1990/04/forgiven-but-not-forgotten?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1983/09/however-long-and-hard-the-road?lang=eng

 

 

[waveslider]

13 hours ago, rchorse said:

I was taught the nail in the board analogy, but I was taught that repentance removes the nail and the Atonement fixes the hole, such that the board is as if it never had a nail in it. Taught that way, I don't see a problem. 

When I was taught about the nail and the board in primary, the teacher said nothing about the whole being fully removed. I was taught that the atonement takes the nail out, but it still leaves a scar. It never sat well with me.

[Storm Rider]

42 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I think it's probable that these object lessons were created by some youth teacher and passed along to others, who then passed them along...

I assume that we can find some people that were assisted by this analogies.  I could be wrong, I must have lived a very sheltered childhood - though I have never thought of it as such.  I know that my teachers and youth leaders were not the brightest people in the world nor did they possess a perfect understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  Though I don't have specific memories at the moment of times when I was hurt or offended by others I am sure that was.  I just don't carry any memories of such at present.  

You find what you seek after in life.  There is not a single human adult alive that has not been hurt, harmed, abused, etc., in some way.  It is amazing to talk to those people who have lived through horrible childhoods and yet their current life is not wrapped up in their childhood.  I also know other adults who apparently have never grown beyond their childhood - it is their daily existence with burning memories of past hurts.  

[Jeanne]

It will be a small Celestial Kingdom if repentance/attonement is not full.  That just doesn't make sense to me.  I had always thought that in repentance, the sin is done away with.  Think of all the good people that have atoned for their sin..that isn't full repentance?  Am I misunderstanding?

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

"Puppets of the sexual revolution"? That's got to be the funniest line yet. 

That you don't understand a woman's point of view doesn't surprise me. You said it yourself. You have little respect or patience for opinions you see as (from your following post) from "obviously another agenda or motivation".

It's not a conspiracy, it's just some people who have a different opinion than yours.

....and sometimes some people actually think they know and yet never realize they know nothing.  

Some people make you roll your eyes - but exactly who does that affect?  Some I just excuse because they are not interesting and just don't know enough to know better.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I saw it many times in the temple. In the Idaho falls temple they have a room set up specifically for traveling youth groups to watch movies in after they had already been baptized and confirmed and were waiting for the rest of the group to get done. Other temples must have a similar set up. 

Good times!  We all loved those movies.

I'm glad you have good memories of this.  And I like the film too.

I still don't find this an appropriate film for a temple setting, even in a waiting room.  I'd take Mr. Kreuger's Christmas over that.  At least the gospel plays a part in that film.

Nowadays with so many more LDS movies to use I would hope a more appropriate film (Mountain of the Lord or Legacy etc) might get played.

Edited September 4, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Eek!]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It will be a small Celestial Kingdom if repentance/atonement is not full.  That just doesn't make sense to me.

Well said.

What is Jesus's job?  "For this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality [salvation] and eternal life [exaltation] of man."

Will He succeed?  "The works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught."

God is no respecter of persons.  So the woman caught in the act of adultery, who was not condemned by Jesus, did not get a "freebie".  Rather, the way Jesus treated her is the example for all of us.  And likewise his instruction to her to "go and sin no more" applies to all of us as well.  Imo there is no energy wasted on condemnation or divine vengeance or somesuch, but still the bar is set very high, because we are supposed to become "like Him", and that's going to take a great deal of effort. 

So imo there is nothing to fear; there is only work to be done.   

[Calm]

9 hours ago, cacheman said:

Never mind, asked and answered and just can't edit out quote...thankfully at least can edit now, must have been update of board, thank you Nemesis

Edited September 4, 2016 by Calm

[JAHS]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

I wish they would update that movie, this time "Johnny Lingo 2: Mahanna Goes to Paris" 

Actually there is an updated sequel to Johnny Lingo called  The Legend of Johnny Lingo

It's not bad but don't spend a lot of money buying it.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

 

Then the question becomes why is this specific teaching so egregious?  Is it because it is about girls?  Is it that girls have hurt feelings?  What makes this specific teaching so much more important than all other examples?  

Because it teaches the opposite of truth and not even a close approximation and has also been a relatively common and widespread teaching in the Church.

Can you think of another analogy that is both as off as this one and as widespread that isn't also criticized in pretty much the same way?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

  I just question the laser focus of this complaint about this topic.  There is obviously another agenda or motivation.  I tend to not follow the crowd when I sense something else going on - there is something else here. 

It is hardly a "laser focus" to recognize a false teaching (yes, they occur in church, just think of false teachings that once and even now surround the Priesthood ban or teach that men are spiritually disabled in comparison to women) and want to be part of the effort to remove it when one recognizes the harm it can do, such as after listening to Elizabeth Smart describe her heartbreaking experience.****

Or do you see her as having another agenda? (Serious question)

****http://www.ldsliving.com/Elizabeth-Smart-Shares-How-Chastity-Lessons-in-Our-Culture-Can-Have-Harmful-Lasting-Effects/s/83107

"It was right after this experience that Smart recalled a lesson she had as a young woman, in which she was told, "You're like this stick of gum, and if you have sex before you're married, it's like someone chews up that piece of gum, and then when you're done, who wants a piece of gum that's already chewed up? No one."

While the intention of the lesson was to teach uplifting, eternal values, the overall message failed to communicate that she was a daughter of loving Heavenly Parents who would love and want her, no matter what.

Even after her rescue, Smart sat through another such lesson, in which she was told: "You're like this beautiful fence, and you hammer these nails in, and then every time you have sex with someone else, it's like you're hammering in another nail. And you can take them out, you can repent of them, but the holes are still there."

Another analogy that misses the point of the gospel and our Savior Jesus Christ, who came to this world to atone for our sins and to experience our pains so that in every circumstance He can make us pure, make us whole, and heal our broken hearts. Analogies like these can not only limit our divine worth and power, they also can limit His.

"I just remember thinking, This is terrible," Smart shares. "Do they not realize I'm sitting in class? Do they not realize that I'm listening to what they're saying?""

[Calm]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

"In However Long and Hard the Way, President Holland discussed the analogy of life being a board. Each time we sin we drive a nail through that board. Unfortunately, many people think that when we repent the nails are removed, but the nail holes remain. He stated that no holes remain because after repenting we have an entirely new board. I found this analogy even more beautiful after realizing that the only holes that do remain are the ones in Christ’s hands and feet. His sacrifice was complete."

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1990/04/forgiven-but-not-forgotten?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1983/09/however-long-and-hard-the-road?lang=eng

SR, do you think President Holland had a different agenda then teaching the gospel when he taught the above?  If not, then why assume anyone else who wishes to replace the false teaching with true doctrine feels differently?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A lot of people love to badmouth Correlation in the Church, but here is yet another example of why it is necessary. My hunch is a many of the people who condemn these misguided teachings are the same ones who hate and vilify Correlation. 

(Rationalization expected in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ....)

I am all for correlation because of this and other false teachings.  In fact, I wish the Church put out a list of "spurious materials" similar to what they do for CES for Sunday School, youth teachers and even for FHE that included all these analogies plus anything else that sees the light of day that is so, so wrong.

[Storm Rider]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

Because it teaches the opposite of truth and not even a close approximation and has also been a relatively common and widespread teaching in the Church.

Can you think of another analogy that is both as off as this one and as widespread that isn't also criticized in pretty much the same way?

Teachings that have caused problems for people are pretty numerous.  We live in a time when people seek to take offense by anything and anybody.  We also have an inordinate value put on hurt feelings; it is as if your feelings getting hurt is paramount to being murdered or bodily tortured for long hours.  But, I digress.  Teachings that have caused problems (in no particular order):

1. The Adam God theory
2. Blacks and the priesthood
3. When is a prophet not a prophet
4. the Word of Wisdom being equated or becoming more important than the Law of Chastity
5. Praise to the Man - Joseph Smith being the focus of our teachings rather than Jesus Christ

This list can get pretty long because we are in the unfortunate position of having a membership full of humans.  Our leaders and our members have taught a vast number of heresies, falsehoods, and false doctrine.  Each of these have caused harm to someone by misleading them for a number of years.  

Let's focus on what we are talking about specifically - some teachers seeking to teach the sanctity of the human body and the importance of keeping ourselves pure became so focused they forgot or misunderstood other important teachings.  Did anyone die as a result of these teachings?  Has anyone lost their salvation as a result have being brutally forced to listen to them one time or as many as eight times if the lesson was taught twice a year?  Was every child taught these heinous, overly wrought teachings destroyed or simply confused about certain teachings of the gospel?  

I don't think it is necessary to exaggerate things or to wring our hands over stupid humans doing wrong.  The reality - not a single individual was destroyed as a result of badly worded analogies.  If they were such apt students surely they would have been just as receptive to corrections or at least other teachings to clarified certain points which these silly teachings caused concern.  

[Thinking]

6 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The reality - not a single individual was destroyed as a result of badly worded analogies.

You don't know this.