Doctrine 612 Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) So I loved president uchdorf talk the gift of grace very much, but I have been finding that some members are having a hard time understanding it. what have you found that you like or have a hard time with? mostly the quote " you can't buy salvation with the currency of obediance " https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng&cid=email-shared Edited August 31, 2016 by Doctrine 612 2
Calm Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 32 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said: So I loved president uchdorf talk the gift of grace very much, but I have been finding that some members are having a hard time understanding it. what have you found that you like or have a hard time with? mostly the quote " you can't buy salvation with the currency of obediance " You should add a link for easy quoting.
Doctrine 612 Posted August 31, 2016 Author Posted August 31, 2016 19 minutes ago, Calm said: You should add a link for easy quoting. Done 1
Bobbieaware Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said: So I loved president uchdorf talk the gift of grace very much, but I have been finding that some members are having a hard time understanding it. what have you found that you like or have a hard time with? mostly the quote " you can't buy salvation with the currency of obediance " Genuine obedience to God's law is impossible without the inspiration and empowerment that comes by means of the indwelling of the Spirit of God. Therefore, because real obedience is made possible only through the merciful indwelling of the Holy Spirit, one cannot earn salvation because the true obedience required to gain (not earn) salvation would be utterly impossible without God's gracious intercession and help. Through the infinite and eternal sacrifice of Christ, it is God who is the one who deserves any and all credit and glory for the spiritual growth we attain and for the ultimate exaltation we obtain. As Christ taught on the eve of his atoning sacrifice, without him we can do NOTHING. 24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief. 25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10) Therefore, in the end the salvative acts of men are, in reality. the acts of God in man. This is why God gets the all the glory and we don't. Edited August 31, 2016 by Bobbieaware
The Nehor Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said: mostly the quote " you can't buy salvation with the currency of obediance " I thought this is Mormonism 101. King Benjamin's speech. President Uchtdorf was clear that obedience is vital but it is a means to an end and not an end in itself. This does not make it less important. This understanding should change how we view obedience and allow us to be more merciful to others and to ourselves. We will never measure up in this life and that is okay. Instead we strive, we fight, and we grow. As we do so the Savior heals us and restores us to our Premortal glory and then beyond even that. 3
thatjimguy Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) Needed to hear this more than you know today. Thanks. No lie. And oh wow...listen to the part about "after all we can do". I always felt that was the meaning, but I felt kinda alone on that one, or the idea was too close along mainstream Christianity lines according to some LDS. Edited August 31, 2016 by thatjimguy 2
Doctrine 612 Posted August 31, 2016 Author Posted August 31, 2016 The "After all we can do" part is also one of my favorites.
Rivers Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 I love this talk. I don't have a hard time with any of it. Pres. Uchdorf does an excellent job of explaining the relationship between two seemingly contradictory principles: grace and works. Salvation comes by grace but change and growth comes through obedience. I think that's the gist of the talk. I might have to read it again. I like the way in which he describes two different mechanisms of grace. Grace "opens the windows of heaven" and "unlocks the gates of heaven." Grace provides forgiveness of sins as well as divine enabling power.
Atheist Mormon Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 10 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said: you like or have a hard time with? mostly the quote " you can't buy salvation with the currency of obediance " https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng&cid=email-shared But it is the exactly what the Church does by providing only those members entry to the Temple who are current with their tithing payments. 2
JAHS Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 We don't score points in heaven for our obedience. Obedience helps us to become what God wants us to become. 2
Doctrine 612 Posted August 31, 2016 Author Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: But it is the exactly what the Church does by providing only those members entry to the Temple who are current with their tithing payments. Another quote from uchdorf talk "We seek to obey our Heavenly Father because our spirits will become more attuned to spiritual things." just like Scriptures study is very important to understanding the spirit of the Lord. How? The scriptures were written in the language of the lord, so when we study the words of God we learn his language, so when he talks to us we will understand him. Edited August 31, 2016 by Doctrine 612
JAHS Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 47 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: But it is the exactly what the Church does by providing only those members entry to the Temple who are current with their tithing payments. Our obedience to the law of tithing helps us to become more humble and spiritually receptive to the things we learn and promises we make in the temple. 1
The Nehor Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: But it is the exactly what the Church does by providing only those members entry to the Temple who are current with their tithing payments. Nope.
Atheist Mormon Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 7 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Nope. Nehor I'd love to visit the Temple I've been married and several others for that matter like whenever I visit Paris I waltz through Notre Dame & Sacre Coeur....... PS: Without any condition of jumping any type of hoops.
Calm Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, JAHS said: Our obedience to the law of tithing helps us to become more humble and spiritually receptive to the things we learn and promises we make in the temple. And it helps us to grow to look on similar actions less as sacrifice and more as opportunities to show our godly desires. 1
The Nehor Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Nehor I'd love to visit the Temple I've been married and several others for that matter like whenever I visit Paris I waltz through Notre Dame & Sacre Coeur....... PS: Without any condition of jumping any type of hoops. And I would love to be married in a temple. Such is life. 2
halconero Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 I had some interesting thoughts after reading this this morning. I was trying to reconcile it with the third article of faith, wherein we declare that all may be saved by the Atonement via obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. At first I felt like it was putting a premium on obedience in exactly the "buying salvation by submission" sort of sense. Yet, as I decided to take that Article out of isolation and consider it in light of this talk, other scriptures, and the total teachings of the Church, it is merely describing how the Atonement both saves and sanctifies. The ordinances of the Gospel are merely physical acts of washing, anointing, laying on of hands, etc without the power of Christ's Atonement to empower them. The laws mean nothing without repentance and the enabling grace of Christ to keep them. Our obedience doesn't buy access to the Atonement, our obedience is the means whereby we accept the will of the Father and allow the Atonement to forgive us, strengthen us, and enable us. 3
Atheist Mormon Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: And I would love to be married in a temple. Such is life. Nehor, there's no getting ahead with you. You surprise me too much!!!!
waveslider Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 I liked the talk a lot! I also like the perspective of King Mosiah on this subject: "23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. 24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? 25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you." Mosiah 2:23-25 It is very clear that we are still indebted to our Savior no matter what we do. We can't even claim to be as good as the dust of the Earth, even if we obey all of His commandments, for our whole life. I think the reasons we do our works is what matters, not just doing the works themselves, or in other words just jumping through hoops, but because we are born again in spirit. Ever since the fall, the natural man has been an enemy to God because of the natural tendencies to gain the desires of our fallen flesh. When we are truly born again of the spirit, we put off the natural man and become a changed person wanting only to follow God and His prescribed plan for us, which entails repenting, keeping and obeying His commandments. This is done out of pure love for God, not out of trying to compensate for past sins. We keep the commandments to add glory to Him, not to ourselves. No matter what we could never purchase our salvation from sin by ourselves. We would have no need of a Savior, nor a need of a true church for that matter, if we were indeed sinless for our entire lives. Repentance cannot be purchased by our own works, ever! It took the only sinless person to have ever lived to make that sacrifice for us, in the most gracious act of pure love for each and every individual person to ever take on mortality, past present and future. This is the only way that we can truly be forgiven of our trespasses we have committed.
The Nehor Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Nehor, there's no getting ahead with you. You surprise me too much!!!! Being glib has few advantages. I am glad I found one of the few.
Boanerges Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 I loved this talk, too, and I quote from it often. I do find that some members have trouble with it because of ingrained things like "after all we can do" and "strict obedience." From that perspective this is my favorite quote from the talk: Quote Brothers and sisters, we obey the commandments of God—out of love for Him! 1
DBMormon Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 (edited) This talk appears to be a abstract borrowing of Brad Wilcox's "My Grace is Suffcient" which in a short time became the #1 most listened to talk on BYU Speeches. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/brad-wilcox_his-grace-is-sufficient/ Edited September 1, 2016 by DBMormon
Calm Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 33 minutes ago, DBMormon said: This talk appears to be a abstract borrowing of Brad Wilcox's "My Grace is Suffcient" which in a short time became the #1 most listened to talk on BYU Speeches. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/brad-wilcox_his-grace-is-sufficient/ Or they could both be built on the long term discussion on grace in the scriptures and teachings of the Church. 2
boblloyd91 Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 I hope some Evangelicals chime in and we can discuss grace and works, as I don't know that that's been discussed here before 😜 2
JLHPROF Posted September 2, 2016 Posted September 2, 2016 On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Doctrine 612 said: So I loved president uchdorf talk the gift of grace very much, but I have been finding that some members are having a hard time understanding it. what have you found that you like or have a hard time with? mostly the quote " you can't buy salvation with the currency of obediance " I am one that has a hard time with this talk. Not because Pres. Uchtdorf said anything wrong, but because I think it led to a more evangelical mindset among some members who don't understand grace/works, or how eternal law affects both. I actually really liked the talk, but people jumped all over it on both sides of the debate so I'm not sure it answered much. As for that quote - "you can't buy salvation with the currency of obedience", that's not entirely true. But yet it is absolutely true. See the problem? 47 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said: I hope some Evangelicals chime in and we can discuss grace and works, as I don't know that that's been discussed here before 😜 Please, NOOOOO!
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