The gift of grace

[boblloyd91]

21 minutes ago, Vance said:

Actually the joke IS on you.

In addition to the verse I already posted showing you to be in error. There are also some like this one, which also is in our canon of scripture.

 

2 Cor  5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

  15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

. . .

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I really like that scripture, where it talks about how he died for everyone. The Atonement is wonderful!

[waveslider]

4 hours ago, Vance said:

Technically, I don't think that is true.  For Christ did EXACTLY that, and we know where He ended up.

Christ didn't have a sinful nature, since God is his literal father, before he learned of the commandments. We on the other hand, have that fallen nature.

Edited September 9, 2016 by waveslider
I didn't read it properly, and replied to the wrong thought, so I needed to change my reply.

[paulhadik]

On 9/9/2016 at 4:54 AM, boblloyd91 said:

I knew this thread would turn into a discussion like this, hence my snark in a post earlier. However it seems so far we are being fairly civil, which I like. I have a few more random thoughts about this based on the last several posts I'd like to add .I will order them and see what you all think.

1. I think it would be good to also consider Catholic and Orthodox views of grace, as well as that of the Early Church Fathers. I know we occasionally have Spammer and 3DOP show up to discuss their viewpoints, I wonder what they would think. I say this because their views from my understanding are fairly close to ours, where obedience is important and continuing in sin without repentance could lead to loss of salvation. Interestingly, i believe it was Terryl Givens who stated one of the ironies of the church is that we revere people like Luther and Calvin, when in fact we are much closer theologically to Catholicism and Orthodoxy in regards to the balance between faith and works. Also I am by no means an expert in Patristics, but from what I've read so far, they stressed the importance of keeping the commandments and obedience, and how works, while they may not save us, have merit in the eyes of God when he judges us. Like I said though I'm still reading them. I just finished reading about Polycarp and am going into Ignatius.
2. Along those lines, it would be good to study up on the New Perspective of Paul, which talks about Paul in his first century context, rather then in the context of the Reformation ( a Catholic poster lamented a while ago discussing this that it's inaccurate to call it a "new perspective" when it has been the belief of Catholicism and Orthodoxy for 2,000 years). A few years back there was a lively back and forth between N.T. Wright and John Piper. The disagreement was which context to look at when understanding Paul. First century Judaism or 1500's Europe. To me it's a no brainer, but to each their own.
3. While we are arguing about our respective views of grace and works (and judgement), I think we should compare the big picture of which is ultimately more merciful. Though Evangelicals get after us for saying we are "works based" I look at our belief of baptism for the dead, three kingdoms of glory, etc. as being much more kind and merciful then the binary view of heaven/hell which most Evangelicals subscribe to. Heck, if we want to go there let's compare LDS views of salvation to that of Calvinism, where predestination's logical conclusion is the arbitrary salvation and condemnation of people. I kind of get a kick out of Evangelicals who say how unkind our view of God is when in the end their's is much more cruel.  

Heck, if we want to go there let's compare LDS views of salvation to that of Calvinism, where predestination's logical conclusion is the arbitrary salvation and condemnation of people.

 

(waking from a long sleep) Jeepers....the old "God being arbitrary again....."

[Comet]

Quite different

[Five Solas]

On 9/8/2016 at 7:56 AM, stemelbow said:

Well I don't get what you're saying then.

Above you said, "Would it be accurate to say Christ's work on the cross is sufficient for LDS to inherit their Celestial Kingdom and spend eternity with their "heavenly father?"  If the answer is no, you lose."

Which seems like a weird complaint given the notion that Christ's work on the cross isn't sufficient for everyone to inherit the kingdom of Heaven, in your view.  Only some get to, right? 

Okay, now with a bit of time (a lovely afternoon, I'm sitting on the back deck while my kids are watching the Seahawks play the Dolphins)...

The absence of Universal Reconciliation in Christianity does *not* imply Christ's work/the atonement lacks sufficiency.  Whether you incline towards Reformed theology or Arminian, the value of Christ's atonement is infinite and sufficient for the whole world.  For the former (Calvinists), God intentionally limits the atonement's efficacious availability to the church, the elect.  For the latter (Arminians, Catholics), the atonement is available for those who choose to avail themselves of God's gracious offer.  The former limit the extent, the latter limit the efficacy (meaning in Arminianism you can say "no" to God and your will, not God's, prevails--while Calvinism alleges the exact opposite).  There's a lot to think about in that last sentence.  But in the big picture, I think it's a relatively small debate.  Both sides agree all have sinned, fall short and thereby deserve the eternal wrath of God in Hell.  All depend on Christ's work on the cross for salvation, available by grace through faith.  

Perhaps it isn't helpful to compare the above to Mormonism.  Mormonism arguably has a more in common with Universal Reconciliation than Arminian, Calvinist, or Catholic expressions of Christianity.  As waveslider wrote of the LDS notion of Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial kingdoms, "all three kingdoms... are heaven."  And basically everyone gets to be there--although which kingdom you inherit, I would argue, is still a function of one's compliance (or lack thereof) with LDS commandments & ordinances. 

I'll try to express myself better next time.

:0)

--Erik

PS.  Seahawks won!

[stemelbow]

14 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Okay, now with a bit of time (a lovely afternoon, I'm sitting on the back deck while my kids are watching the Seahawks play the Dolphins)...

The absence of Universal Reconciliation in Christianity does *not* imply Christ's work/the atonement lacks sufficiency.  Whether you incline towards Reformed theology or Arminian, the value of Christ's atonement is infinite and sufficient for the whole world.  For the former (Calvinists), God intentionally limits the atonement's efficacious availability to the church, the elect.  For the latter (Arminians, Catholics), the atonement is available for those who choose to avail themselves of God's gracious offer.  The former limit the extent, the latter limit the efficacy (meaning in Arminianism you can say "no" to God and your will, not God's, prevails--while Calvinism alleges the exact opposite).  There's a lot to think about in that last sentence.  But in the big picture, I think it's a relatively small debate.  Both sides agree all have sinned, fall short and thereby deserve the eternal wrath of God in Hell.  All depend on Christ's work on the cross for salvation, available by grace through faith.  

With this explanation in hand, it certainly makes your criticism vacuous, which I think you're acknowledging below.  I don't care if the word sufficient is used or not, but for me whenever the atonement is said to not save everyone, then it is not sufficient as claimed.  It's a misuse of the word sufficient in my mind.  But that's okay.  We all use words and adapt them however we want. 

14 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Perhaps it isn't helpful to compare the above to Mormonism.  Mormonism arguably has a more in common with Universal Reconciliation than Arminian, Calvinist, or Catholic expressions of Christianity.  As waveslider wrote of the LDS notion of Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial kingdoms, "all three kingdoms... are heaven."  And basically everyone gets to be there--although which kingdom you inherit, I would argue, is still a function of one's compliance (or lack thereof) with LDS commandments & ordinances. 

I'll try to express myself better next time.

:0)

--Erik

PS.  Seahawks won!

Thanks. 

[Five Solas]

On 9/12/2016 at 8:04 AM, stemelbow said:

With this explanation in hand, it certainly makes your criticism vacuous, which I think you're acknowledging below.  I don't care if the word sufficient is used or not, but for me whenever the atonement is said to not save everyone, then it is not sufficient as claimed.  It's a misuse of the word sufficient in my mind.  But that's okay.  We all use words and adapt them however we want.

You certainly know how to get to the root of a disagreement, stemelbow.

Combining yours & waveslider's arguments, Mormonism is the most grace-filled of all the world's religions since *everyone* (or nearly everyone) gets to go to heaven (applying waveslider's definition--heaven includes "all three kingdoms").  Calvinists limit the atonement's extent.  Arminians & Catholics limit its efficacy.  Either way, it ain't "sufficient" like it says on the tin.  Only in Mormonism...

I guess the only question left is why Uchtdorf (and other LDS who have participated on this thread) haven't more boldly proclaimed just how gracious the LDS religion really is.  Such timidity--at least until you came along. 

What's wrong with this picture?

;0)

--Erik

[boblloyd91]

On September 8, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Vance said:

 

[boblloyd91]

Sorry Vance made a goof, was trying to quote someone else

Edited September 15, 2016 by boblloyd91

[boblloyd91]

11 hours ago, Five Solas said:

You certainly know how to get to the root of a disagreement, stemelbow.

Combining yours & waveslider's arguments, Mormonism is the most grace-filled of all the world's religions since *everyone* (or nearly everyone) gets to go to heaven (applying waveslider's definition--heaven includes "all three kingdoms").  Calvinists limit the atonement's extent.  Arminians & Catholics limit its efficacy.  Either way, it ain't "sufficient" like it says on the tin.  Only in Mormonism...

I guess the only question left is why Uchtdorf (and other LDS who have participated on this thread) haven't more boldly proclaimed just how gracious the LDS religion really is.  Such timidity--at least until you came along. 

What's wrong with this picture?

;0)

--Erik

Well I did mention a comparison between Mormonism and Calvinism a few posts earlier......

Edited September 15, 2016 by boblloyd91

[Five Solas]

43 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

Well I did mention a comparison between Mormonism and Calvinism a few posts earlier. We have responded to your questions, I was wondering if you'd respond to two of mine.

1. Why do you feel your Reformed model is the correct one? 

2. What role do you feel obedience and keeping the commandments plays in salvation and our relationship to Christ?

 

Question 1 takes us too far afield from the OP.  I don't want to make this about the Five Points (not to be confused with Five Solas).

Regarding 2, I'd take the answer straight from Ephesians 2:10--For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Obedience is our response to God.  God initiates, we respond.  It's evidence we've been given a "new heart" (Ezekiel 36:26).  It becomes our deepest desire, though we often distract ourselves and suppress it.  But it doesn't merit our salvation in any sense (backing up a couple verses in Ephesians, above).  Christ's work on the cross was sufficient (sorry, stemelbow) for that. 

In terms of "relationship to Christ" our obedience (e.g., participating in Christian community, Hebrews 10:25)--I don't believe our obedience (or lack thereof) dictates God's relationship to us in any way.  It works in the opposite direction, it's God's means to change us.  To build our confidence, our trust in Him, for our good and His glory.   

Does that make any sense? 

--Erik 

[boblloyd91]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

Question 1 takes us too far afield from the OP.  I don't want to make this about the Five Points (not to be confused with Five Solas).

Regarding 2, I'd take the answer straight from Ephesians 2:10--For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Obedience is our response to God.  God initiates, we respond.  It's evidence we've been given a "new heart" (Ezekiel 36:26).  It becomes our deepest desire, though we often distract ourselves and suppress it.  But it doesn't merit our salvation in any sense (backing up a couple verses in Ephesians, above).  Christ's work on the cross was sufficient (sorry, stemelbow) for that. 

In terms of "relationship to Christ" our obedience (e.g., participating in Christian community, Hebrews 10:25)--I don't believe our obedience (or lack thereof) dictates God's relationship to us in any way.  It works in the opposite direction, it's God's means to change us.  To build our confidence, our trust in Him, for our good and His glory.   

Does that make any sense? 

--Erik 

That does answer that thanks! I'm glad you saw that before I edited it, as I was worried it may have led to derailing the thread. However it's nice to know where you're coming from. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by boblloyd91

[Anakin7]

  As LDS  we count the cost to follow him [Luke 14:25-35], access His True Grace by True Faith [Romans 5:2] Stay in True Grace by remaining on the True Vine John 15. We keep the Covenant written in our hearts Jeremiah 31:31. Note -Faith - pistis = allegiance,commitment,confidence,dedication,devotion,faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty,obedience,trust .

The Atonement It Is The central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited September 15, 2016 by Anakin7

[Vance]

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 11:46 PM, waveslider said:

Christ didn't have a sinful nature, since God is his literal father, before he learned of the commandments. We on the other hand, have that fallen nature.

Are you saying that He was incapable of being tempted?

Are you saying that He didn't inherit human nature from His mother?

Are you saying that it was no great feat for Him to live a sinless life, because it wasn't in His nature?

 

What kind of nature is described here?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 

BTW,

I don't find the phrase "sinful nature" anywhere in scripture.  I think you have been unduly influenced by Evangelical (false) doctrine.

[Vance]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 6:06 PM, Vance said:

I am not interested in changing the definition.  My only interest is in correcting your false one.  No where in scripture is grace defined as "unmerited".  In fact I have clearly shown, using New Testament verses, your definition is untenable.

 

Yes, grace is a gift, and at times, even most times, it is unmerited.  Other times it is extended to only the obedient.  Obedience is necessary but insufficient.  Christ, speaking to the obedient on several occasions, has exclaimed that His grace is sufficient for them.

1. 2 Cor. 12: 9
     9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2. Ether 12: 26-27
     26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;
     27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
3. D&C 17: 8
     8 And if you do these last commandments of mine, which I have given you, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; for my grace is sufficient for you, and you shall be lifted up at the last day.
4. D&C 18: 31
     31 And now I speak unto you, the Twelve—Behold, my grace is sufficient for you; you must walk uprightly before me and sin not.

 

 

[Vance]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 8:03 PM, Five Solas said:

Combining yours & waveslider's arguments, Mormonism is the most grace-filled of all the world's religions since *everyone* (or nearly everyone) gets to go to heaven (applying waveslider's definition--heaven includes "all three kingdoms").

. . . 

Either way, it ain't "sufficient" like it says on the tin. 

. . .

What's wrong with this picture?

;0)

--Erik

The thing that is wrong with this picture is that you are again misquoting/misapplying scripture.

This is a CFR for you to show how and where scripture teaches that His grace is '"sufficient" like it says on the tin" in reference to your salvation. 

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, Vance said:

Are you saying that He was incapable of being tempted?

No!

2 hours ago, Vance said:

Are you saying that He didn't inherit human nature from His mother?

No, I am saying he inherited Godly nature from His Father, so he was born half God.

2 hours ago, Vance said:

Are you saying that it was no great feat for Him to live a sinless life, because it wasn't in His nature?

No, not at all! I am saying that it was in his nature to be Godlike.

2 hours ago, Vance said:

What kind of nature is described here?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Are you saying that people naturally won't sin? It seems you misunderstand this scripture if you think that. This scripture is talking about people who actually obey their conscience (the light of Christ), even though they never heard of the commandments. This is only talking about when they obey it, but it doesn't say they have always obeyed it and therefore were completely sinless like Christ was. All have sinned except Christ:

"20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 3:20-23

I don't know if you have noticed or not, the way people act when they haven't been taught to listen to their conscience and try to have morals so they don't feel guilty. Most of the people like that seem to bury their feelings of guilt and become self serving, by nature. I was using the natural tendencies of people in the very sense that this scripture talks about:

"19  For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."
Mosiah 3:19

3 hours ago, Vance said:

BTW,

I don't find the phrase "sinful nature" anywhere in scripture.  I think you have been unduly influenced by Evangelical (false) doctrine.

Perhaps you need to search the scriptures a little better (the phrase, "sinful nature," can be said in different wording yet mean the same thing), starting with the verses I put here for you to read, more importantly you might want to pray about it first so you can find the truth that is contained within it instead of wresting the scriptures to try to fit your own beliefs into them, before accusing me of something. I am clearly not influenced by false doctrine, evangelical or otherwise, but rather influenced by the Holy Spirit of Truth.

[Vance]

22 hours ago, waveslider said:

No!

No, I am saying he inherited Godly nature from His Father, so he was born half God.

Sounds like you are denying His human nature, and making Him incapable of committing sin, thus minimizing His sinless state.

No, not at all! I am saying that it was in his nature to be Godlike.

So you are denying His human nature.

Are you saying that people naturally won't sin?

Not at all. I am simply questioning your claim about Christ's lack of human nature.

It seems you misunderstand this scripture if you think that. This scripture is talking about people who actually obey their conscience (the light of Christ), even though they never heard of the commandments.

Right.  They are naturally obeying the commandments, because, well . . . . because it was in their nature.

This is only talking about when they obey it, but it doesn't say they have always obeyed it and therefore were completely sinless like Christ was. All have sinned except Christ:

"20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 3:20-23

I never claimed otherwise.

Quote

I don't know if you have noticed or not, the way people act when they haven't been taught to listen to their conscience and try to have morals so they don't feel guilty. Most of the people like that seem to bury their feelings of guilt and become self serving, by nature. I was using the natural tendencies of people in the very sense that this scripture talks about:

"19  For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."
Mosiah 3:19

Which some people do by nature.  Some people naturally learn to do good because it makes them feel good.  And they naturally learn to abhor sin because it makes them feel bad.  Surely you don't believe that only Christians can be good.

Quote

Perhaps you need to search the scriptures a little better (the phrase, "sinful nature," can be said in different wording yet mean the same thing), starting with the verses I put here for you to read, more importantly you might want to pray about it first so you can find the truth that is contained within it instead of wresting the scriptures to try to fit your own beliefs into them, before accusing me of something. I am clearly not influenced by false doctrine, evangelical or otherwise, but rather influenced by the Holy Spirit of Truth.

1) I noticed that you failed to provide any references.

2) I sure hope that I don't come across as sanctimonious as you did with that.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Vance

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, Vance said:

I never claimed otherwise.

Which some people do by nature.  Some people naturally learn to do good because it makes them feel good.  And they naturally learn to abhor sin because it makes them feel bad.  Surely you don't believe that only Christians can be good.

1) I noticed that you failed to provide any references.

2) I sure hope that I don't come across as sanctimonious as you did with that.

You can take a blind eye if you want. I think you should go back and try to either re-read my comments and try to understand them instead of just glossing over them and assuming things that I am not meaning. I am not denying Jesus' human side. What I am saying.... never mind you obviously are too blind to comprehend it if you can't go back, read and understand what I already said concerning this.

While some people naturally learn to do good because it makes them feel good, show me even one person who by nature, previous to learning to do good, has never committed any sin, besides Christ himself? Like in the references which you deny I put (yet you still somehow managed to quote in your post I am responding to now) people have naturally, by their fallen nature, sinned:

1 hour ago, Vance said:

"19  For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."
Mosiah 3:19

 

1 hour ago, Vance said:

"20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 3:20-23

Sanctimonious, I am not. I have also sinned by nature and am just as much in need of the infinite atonement as the next person. I need the sacrament all the time.

Are you one of them who "....seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."?
Matthew 13:13

I wish I was good at creating parables to help you see what it is I am saying here.

[Vance]

Quote

The “natural man” is the “earthy man” who has allowed rude animal passions to overshadow his spiritual inclinations.

President Spencer W. Kimball, October Conference 1974.

 

 

 

[Vance]

Quote

Children have a natural desire to do good and to be good.

Sister Mary R. Durham, April Conference 2016

[Atheist Mormon]

On 8/31/2016 at 1:31 AM, Doctrine 612 said:

The "After all we can do" part is also one of my favorites.

 

Does that require a religious & spiritual "push up"? Tomorrow first thing I need to get my hands on is a cool 50K, I'm going to try my best, what if it don't fall through?

[waveslider]

8 hours ago, Vance said:

Children have a natural desire to do good and to be good.

 

8 hours ago, Vance said:

Sister Mary R. Durham, April Conference 2016

Mosiah 3:19 says, "Natural man...." not, "Natural child." Here is a scripture verse that should help shed a little more light on the subject:

"Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children."
Moroni 8:10

[Vance]

On 9/9/2016 at 0:46 AM, waveslider said:

 We on the other hand, have that fallen nature.

I guess that "we" of which you speak doesn't include children.

 

Thanks for moving the goal post.  Any other groups you want to exclude from that "we"?

[waveslider]

7 hours ago, Vance said:

I guess that "we" of which you speak doesn't include children.

 

Thanks for moving the goal post.  Any other groups you want to exclude from that "we"?

Children aren't accountable and although they do, as you have pointed out, "have a natural desire to do good and be good," they also have natural tendencies to be selfish, just as us adults. The difference though, is that we as adults are accountable because we know better than to be selfish. Little children don't know better as they start to learn how to balance being good and having natural fallen desires at the same time.

A long time ago I used to teach the Sunbeams in primary, they were 3 and 4 years old. I had a huge box of crayons, with far more than enough crayons for each, and every, child to have multiple crayons of each color and then some, all at the same time. Although the kids all desired to do good and be good, they also always tried to hoard the whole box for themselves, individually, in their natural desire to be self centered as well. This happened every color time. They always would share in the end because of their natural desire to be good and do good, after I had shown them that it wasn't good to not share. They weren't sinful because they weren't able to learn that concept on their own yet. I had to point out what it feels like to be one of the other kids who wouldn't get a chance to color if the crayons remained hoarded. If left to their own devices I'm quite certain that it would have led to fights, where scratching and biting would end up ensuing. So in a sense, "we," does include children. The little children aren't held accountable though because they don't know any better yet. They are still learning to recognize the Light of Christ/conscience. A, "natural man," has a tendency to crush the Light of Christ/conscience because they don't want to be bothered with guilt, whereas someone who has put off his natural man/selfishness, will repent and try to do as Christ showed to do, in order to appease the guilt  and again have inner peace.

Sorry if it seems I have moved the goal posts, what I meant by natural man was someone who just goes with the selfish desires as opposed to obeying the conscience that Christ has given to each of us. Humbling ourselves as little children who want to obey their conscience is how we put off the natural man, as we attempt to repent each time we falter, allowing that mercy and grace from the infinite and eternal atonement, to be an active cleansing agent in our lives on a daily basis. If we just bury the conscience, we are literally an enemy to God because we refuse to even heed the Light of Christ at all. The end of that road leads to becoming a sociopath/psychopath, or in other words, "Past feeling."

"And now, my son, I dwell no longer upon this horrible scene. Behold, thou knowest the wickedness of this people; thou knowest that they are without principle, and past feeling; and their wickedness doth exceed that of the Lamanites"
Moroni 9:20