waveslider Posted August 30, 2016 Posted August 30, 2016 3 hours ago, stemelbow said: How to square contradictory commandments? First Eve sees the good in her disobeying. Perhaps if we had a better grasp on the big picture, things wouldn't seem so contradictory. What if the commandment to Adam and Eve, to not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge, was only temporary, until they grew a little more and would be ready at some later date? I'm not saying it was a temporary commandment, but it is a possibility. Kind of like when my kids were little and wanted to play with knobs and things all the time, I told them that they can never turn the knobs on the stove top. As we all know that would have the potential to cause great harm, including burning the house down and killing the whole family. I knew that one day they would be able to understand and grasp the responsibility enough to actually turn those knobs later, and I would then allow it, which is evident by how well they can cook now days. Perhaps in the same way Adam and Eve weren't ready to eat of the fruit and that at some later time God would have allowed them to eat of it and start mortality in the correct manor. In the temple movie God asks Satan, "What have you done?" His reply was, "I was only doing what has been done on other worlds." Since it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge, Eve had to have now known that it was indeed necessary to partake of the fruit in order to fulfill the commandment to multiply and replenish the Earth, and therefore could now see the good in her disobedience. I think for us to judge these kinds of things takes a better understanding of everything, and we don't have a full understanding so perhaps our judgements are rash and incorrect and things that seem contradictory truly aren't.
stemelbow Posted August 30, 2016 Posted August 30, 2016 40 minutes ago, waveslider said: Perhaps if we had a better grasp on the big picture, things wouldn't seem so contradictory. What if the commandment to Adam and Eve, to not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge, was only temporary, until they grew a little more and would be ready at some later date? I'm not saying it was a temporary commandment, but it is a possibility. Kind of like when my kids were little and wanted to play with knobs and things all the time, I told them that they can never turn the knobs on the stove top. As we all know that would have the potential to cause great harm, including burning the house down and killing the whole family. I knew that one day they would be able to understand and grasp the responsibility enough to actually turn those knobs later, and I would then allow it, which is evident by how well they can cook now days. Perhaps in the same way Adam and Eve weren't ready to eat of the fruit and that at some later time God would have allowed them to eat of it and start mortality in the correct manor. In the temple movie God asks Satan, "What have you done?" His reply was, "I was only doing what has been done on other worlds." Since it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge, Eve had to have now known that it was indeed necessary to partake of the fruit in order to fulfill the commandment to multiply and replenish the Earth, and therefore could now see the good in her disobedience. I think for us to judge these kinds of things takes a better understanding of everything, and we don't have a full understanding so perhaps our judgements are rash and incorrect and things that seem contradictory truly aren't. Perhaps. But we'd only be guessing. I think that clarifies some of what is the problem though. We have to really conjecture in order for it to sound a little better.
Rain Posted August 30, 2016 Posted August 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: I see this also, makes one wonder if they hadn't been a member of the LDS church and maybe another faith paradigm that wasn't centered on it being the only true church, they wouldn't have lost their belief in a creator. Losing a testimony in the church messes with your mind. There is definite fall out. I'm sorry you've had to see this side of your relatives. Even John Dehlin admitted that there are problems, such as infidelity, drug use and more. But it doesn't work that way. There are many people that were of other faiths that who are now atheist. There are many who were raised atheist or agnostic and are atheist now. And there are many who were LDS left the church and still have a great belief in God. Sometimes it certainly seems like if you leave the church you are more likely to become atheist, especially when you spend time on LDS boards, but having spent time on another board that was not religious based I find that there are many from many religions who have become atheist. The difference that I have seen is that those who were once LDS are usually more vocal about it. Years ago I found that former Catholics were more vocal about it. But if we found that LDS really do lose a belief in God at a higher rate AND the church really was the only church with authority then it makes sense. It would be hard to continue believing in God if you rejected his church. I realize that people who have left the church view this differently, but this is a valid reason for why some might stop believing in God - not all results of leaving point to something bad in the church. 2
Jeanne Posted August 30, 2016 Posted August 30, 2016 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Rain said: But it doesn't work that way. There are many people that were of other faiths that who are now atheist. There are many who were raised atheist or agnostic and are atheist now. And there are many who were LDS left the church and still have a great belief in God. Sometimes it certainly seems like if you leave the church you are more likely to become atheist, especially when you spend time on LDS boards, but having spent time on another board that was not religious based I find that there are many from many religions who have becomeso atheist. The difference that I have seen is that those who were once LDS are usually more vocal about it. Years ago I found that former Catholics were more vocal about it. But if we found that LDS really do lose a belief in God at a higher rate AND the church really was the only church with authority then it makes sense. It would be hard to continue believing in God if you rejected his church. I realize that people who have left the church view this differently, but this is a valid reason for why some might stop believing in God - not all results of leaving point to something bad in the church. I was a lucky one that retained my belief in God and the Savior. But I can see why many become atheists. Sometimes I think the LDS church is an all or nothing church. There is really no middle way no matter how hard people like me try..or the apologists. There may be a reason why as Tacenda said..leaving messes up the mind. For so long we have been taught what to think and why..goals..all those things..and suddenly the choices are really ours. For some this may be difficult but in I have seen in some of my other resigned friends that we still retain a lot of the morals and WOW parts of our upbringing. Just my 2 cents. Edited August 30, 2016 by Jeanne 1
mnn727 Posted August 30, 2016 Posted August 30, 2016 To me, its not hearing a professionally prepared sermon on Sundays. I grew up Protestant and it really is the one thing I miss. Some people give good talks, they actually prepare and put some work into what they are saying. Other people either prepare it the night before or plain out try to wing it and others should never been given a microphone and a (semi) captive audience. 3
waveslider Posted August 30, 2016 Posted August 30, 2016 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Perhaps. But we'd only be guessing. I think that clarifies some of what is the problem though. We have to really conjecture in order for it to sound a little better. The same reason we have to conjecture, is the same reason that we shouldn't be to rash in our judgement of what is contradictory or not. We don't know enough to understand it all yet. This is why we need to learn to trust God, and the spiritual confirmations of truth that comes from Him. I think it makes it a lot easier to be Mormon when we have a testimony of it, than if we are merely trying to make sense of it all logically and not relying upon the Holy Ghost to confirm, or deny, our beliefs.
Rain Posted August 30, 2016 Posted August 30, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: I was a lucky one that retained my belief in God and the Savior. But I can see why many become atheists. Sometimes I think the LDS church is an all or nothing church. There is really no middle way no matter how hard people like me try..or the apologists. There may be a reason why as Tacenda said..leaving messes up the mind. For so long we have been taught what to think and why..goals..all those things..and suddenly the choices are really ours. For some this may be difficult but in I have seen in some of my other resigned friends that we still retain a lot of the morals and WOW parts of our upbringing. Just my 2 cents. That (in bold) surprises me. When you think of our doctrine of 3 kingdoms, that alone says it is not all or nothing. It is the least "all or nothing" Christian church I know. And I know many to retain their moral beliefs. I specificaly was talking about my experience with my own loved ones and that's why it is personally hard. Edited August 30, 2016 by Rain 1
Jeanne Posted August 30, 2016 Posted August 30, 2016 12 minutes ago, Rain said: That (in bold) surprises me. When you think of our doctrine of 3 kingdoms, that alone says it is not all or nothing. It is the least "all or nothing" Christian church I know. And I know many to retain their moral beliefs. I specificaly was talking about my experience with my own loved ones and that's why it is personally hard. What I am saying is...the all or nothing is how it feels. I feel for you and your experience with your loved ones..I certainly did not mean to convey what a small thing that is. It is hard for all members of a family when there is a disconnect. If I have offended you, please accept my apologies. I know that I tried my hardest not to break my father's heart..life does get better. Hugs, Jeanne
mnn727 Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: What I am saying is...the all or nothing is how it feels. You are correct in that if you were to walk up to your Bishop and say "I'm shooting for the Terrestrial Kingdom, he'd probably be aghast.
Stargazer Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 I think that, for me at least, the hardest part of Mormonism is being a good Home Teacher! Everything else is easy-peasy!
Stargazer Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 1 hour ago, mnn727 said: You are correct in that if you were to walk up to your Bishop and say "I'm shooting for the Terrestrial Kingdom, he'd probably be aghast. Made me laugh, you did! Actually, I think the population of the Terrestrial Kingdom will be larger than any other! That would seem to be the kingdom with the widest way. Getting into the Telestial requires that you be a really bad person, and most people are not really bad. 2
Rivers Posted August 31, 2016 Author Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, Stargazer said: I think that, for me at least, the hardest part of Mormonism is being a good Home Teacher! Everything else is easy-peasy! Yeah. I wish I could be better home teacher too. Edited August 31, 2016 by Rivers 1
why me Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 On 30.8.2016 at 2:47 AM, Sky said: I don't know if I can point to any one particular thing that is the most difficult about being Mormon. For me, though, it would probably have to be certain aspects of our history and our current culture. It has never been easy to be LGBT and Mormon. I see lots of good things that keep me coming back, too. Not sure where I'd go if I left. Culture norms change and I don't know if it is up to a church to change with the culture norms. To be LGBT was difficult for most who were christians and who were members of churches. In the past, it was hard to find any church that would support such lifestyles and marriages. But now....it is different. the norm has changed. The LGBT community has been very successful in their field work to change the norm. However, just a couple of decades ago, people would be against most of things that people support when it comes to the LGBT community. No history is perfect. Just look at the history of the United States. Is it perfect? No. Then why stay in the country? Likewise for any history of any country. If I judged my membership in organizations by their perfection I would be a lonely human being. 1
Tacenda Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, why me said: Culture norms change and I don't know if it is up to a church to change with the culture norms. To be LGBT was difficult for most who were christians and who were members of churches. In the past, it was hard to find any church that would support such lifestyles and marriages. But now....it is different. the norm has changed. The LGBT community has been very successful in their field work to change the norm. However, just a couple of decades ago, people would be against most of things that people support when it comes to the LGBT community. No history is perfect. Just look at the history of the United States. Is it perfect? No. Then why stay in the country? Likewise for any history of any country. If I judged my membership in organizations by their perfection I would be a lonely human being. Is the USA a church? A church that professes to be the only true church on the face of the earth.
Duncan Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 I know that when I was a missionary and it still goes on but you get enough guff from non members you don't need to get it from the members. Members should be a positive thing in the life of a missionary, not a source of frustration and embarrasment
Stargazer Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 5 hours ago, Tacenda said: Is the USA a church? A church that professes to be the only true church on the face of the earth. Expectations of perfection or even near-perfection, even for Christ's own true Church, when all He has to work with are highly fallible humans? I've thought about this expectation of perfection that seems to abound with the critic "community". It can't be Christ's true church if it isn't perfect? Well, when we look back into biblical history we find what? Fallible humans twisting God's work into their own hellish, slithering, mutatious...thing. To paraphrase The Nehor. Even Moses the Lawgiver was imperfect -- he was forbidden entry into the Promised Land because of it. You can find any number of horrible examples of imperfections in any dispensation of the Gospel throughout history. The imperfections are there even though the Gospel is perfect.
why me Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, Tacenda said: Is the USA a church? A church that professes to be the only true church on the face of the earth. However, my point was simple. I grew up believing george washington never told a lie. Or the cheery tree stroy. As a kid, my history was John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart western movies. Not to mention Audie Murphy (look him up) war movies. The truth was much different. Regardless if a church proclaims to be the only true church, we need to remember that a church without people would just be a series of buildings. People make a church and people are not perfect. And believe it or not, this would include Mormons. If mormons were perfect, I would leave the church. Edited September 1, 2016 by why me
bcuzbcuz Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 On 31 August 2016 at 4:48 AM, Stargazer said: I think that, for me at least, the hardest part of Mormonism is being a good Home Teacher! Everything else is easy-peasy! The hardest part of Mormonism was telling my mother that, "No, I won't be coming to church with you when I visit." And "No, putting my name on the temple prayer list will no help me become active again."
Stargazer Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 3 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said: The hardest part of Mormonism was telling my mother that, "No, I won't be coming to church with you when I visit." And "No, putting my name on the temple prayer list will no help me become active again." Well, we all have different burdens to bear. But putting your name on the prayer roll certainly can't hurt, at least!
Stargazer Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 On 8/29/2016 at 4:47 PM, Sky said: I don't know if I can point to any one particular thing that is the most difficult about being Mormon. For me, though, it would probably have to be certain aspects of our history and our current culture. It has never been easy to be LGBT and Mormon. I see lots of good things that keep me coming back, too. Not sure where I'd go if I left. I hadn't gotten the impression that it's easy to be LGBT, period. 1
Stargazer Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 5 hours ago, why me said: However, my point was simple. I grew up believing george washington never told a lie. Or the cheery tree stroy. As a kid, my history was John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart western movies. Not to mention Audie Murphy (look him up) war movies. The truth was much different. Regardless if a church proclaims to be the only true church, we need to remember that a church without people would just be a series of buildings. People make a church and people are not perfect. And believe it or not, this would include Mormons. If mormons were perfect, I would leave the church. Because you'd be afraid you couldn't measure up? Don't worry, there's no danger of that, we're all sufficiently flawed that there is no hope for us -- except through the Grace of Jesus Christ! 1
thesometimesaint Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 On 8/30/2016 at 7:51 PM, Stargazer said: Made me laugh, you did! Actually, I think the population of the Terrestrial Kingdom will be larger than any other! That would seem to be the kingdom with the widest way. Getting into the Telestial requires that you be a really bad person, and most people are not really bad. I don't. I believe God is a successful parent. Most of us will be with God in the Celestial Kingdom. God judges not only our actions, but the intents of our hearts.
stemelbow Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I don't. I believe God is a successful parent. Most of us will be with God in the Celestial Kingdom. God judges not only our actions, but the intents of our hearts. Most of the 100 billion? Hey, that'd be great. You may be a lone Mormon who thinks that. I hope for the same.
Stargazer Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 13 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I don't. I believe God is a successful parent. Most of us will be with God in the Celestial Kingdom. God judges not only our actions, but the intents of our hearts. Well, your opinion is your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but my reading of DC 76 does not lead me to suspect that "most of us" will be in the Celestial Kingdom. You do know what road is paved with good intentions, don't you? If I end up trying to tell God, "I intended to obey the commandments You gave me, but somehow or other I just didn't get around to it in the end," I don't think this is going to be much help to me. Consider these verses from that section, which speak of the qualifications for the Terrestrial Kingdom: Quote 71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. 72 Behold, these are they who died without law; 73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; 74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. 75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. 76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. 77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. 78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun. 79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. 80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit. I would have to say, in respect of verse 79, that those who become members of the Church in this life but who end up going inactive and staying so, or who come to Church every Sunday but act more-or-less like Gentiles during the week, never taking things very seriously, are not being valiant. Half my ward's members, or more, consist of such people. Sometimes I fear their number includes me! I would love to see them (and me!) in the Celestial Kingdom, tss, but the impression I get from reading DC 76 is that the Celestial Kingdom is for those who take the Gospel seriously. Not for the ones who "...doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness..." (Doctrine and Covenants 58:29) And considering my performance of my home teaching duties, such as it is, I'm rather worried about it! Especially to the point is verses 76 and 77: Quote 76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. 77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Which can be matched with DC 93:27: Quote 27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. We are assured that the Terrestrial Kingdom is a wonderful place, beyond imagining for us in our mortal condition. I think that the many members of the Church who just couldn't bring themselves to keep the commandments with steadfastness throughout their lives will be very satisfied with being blessed by the glory of the Terrestrial as a reward. It's not a punishment. Considering that it is written that we must "work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12, Mormon 9:27), this suggests very strongly to me that achieving the Celestial Kingdom is not a matter for casual consideration of the duties the Lord lays at our feet. And if we do not take these things seriously, and labor with a will to see it all done as best we can, we demonstrate our fitness for a lesser glory. Nephi the Great, in 2 Nephi 28, writes that there will be those who counsel casualness in the keeping of commandments, as if they expected everything to be smoothed over at the end and be given the same reward as those who were faithful: Quote 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Believing such things will certainly lead to disappointment in the end.
Calm Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 5 hours ago, stemelbow said: Most of the 100 billion? Hey, that'd be great. You may be a lone Mormon who thinks that. I hope for the same. So are you not LDS in your opinion or are you forgetting to count yourself along with STS? I know a lot of LDS who believe this, btw. I am another.
Recommended Posts