Called of God, by prophecy?

[JAHS]

If callings are supposed to be inspired by revelation why does God allow some unworthy people to be called in positions of high leadership in the church?
For example (true story), a medical doctor is called to be a stake president and serves in that position for several years. Later it is found out that before being called and while serving in this position he was sexually abusing female patients under the guise of "medical procedures", assuring them that what he was doing would help cure their medical conditions. He is eventually found guilty of medical malpractice and is now serving time in prison for this and other violations, including practicing medicine without a license.
Lawsuits were brought against him and he in turn falsely brought malicious lawsuits against other innocent people, only to be used as a defense against those suing him. He hurt a lot of innocent people by these things he did. 
I know sometimes callings come by way of desperation rather than inspiration and that no one is perfect, but what do you say to a person who has been severely hurt both emotionally and spiritually by such people, who have supposedly been called by revelation in these high leadership positions? How can they trust the promise that people are called through inspiration from God?

 

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, JAHS said:

If callings are supposed to be inspired by revelation why does God allow some unworthy people to be called in positions of high leadership in the church?
For example (true story), a medical doctor is called to be a stake president and serves in that position for several years. Later it is found out that before being called and while serving in this position he was sexually abusing female patients under the guise of "medical procedures", assuring them that what he was doing would help cure their medical conditions. He is eventually found guilty of medical malpractice and is now serving time in prison for this and other violations, including practicing medicine without a license.
Lawsuits were brought against him and he in turn falsely brought malicious lawsuits against other innocent people, only to be used as a defense against those suing him. He hurt a lot of innocent people by these things he did. 
I know sometimes callings come by way of desperation rather than inspiration and that no one is perfect, but what do you say to a person who has been severely hurt both emotionally and spiritually by such people, who have supposedly been called by revelation in these high leadership positions? How can they trust the promise that people are called through inspiration from God?

 

You apologize, say there is no excuse,  and tell them that no one is perfect and that you will do what you can to make restitution though we know that is impossible

It happens to Catholics a bit more than it has for us.

Horrible but it happens

We all have agency.  Think of King David.

He was fore-ordained and blew it.  We all have agency and can blow it and all are tempted

It has nothing to do with being called to a high position 

Edited July 31, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

The vetting process needs to be much tighter, and some progress has been made along those lines.  The case you mention may be one from around 20 years ago in which a stake president who was also an M.D. was engaging in molestation.  One female member of the stake assembled accounts of his abuse and informed higher Mormon leaders.  However, it is claimed that the leaders protected him and treated her as a pariah.  So she moved away.  The case was then filed in Superior Court, and the doctor lost his license to practice medicine, although he continued to practice anyway – leading to his being found guilty of practicing medicine without a license, etc.

Just because someone is called to a high position is no guarantee that he or she will behave properly.  They still have free agency, and there is no such thing as infallibility.  We all must take our hits and move on with our lives.

[VideoGameJunkie]

30 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The vetting process needs to be much tighter, and some progress has been made along those lines.  The case you mention may be one from around 20 years ago in which a stake president who was also an M.D. was engaging in molestation.  One female member of the stake assembled accounts of his abuse and informed higher Mormon leaders.  However, it is claimed that the leaders protected him and treated her as a pariah.  So she moved away.  The case was then filed in Superior Court, and the doctor lost his license to practice medicine, although he continued to practice anyway – leading to his being found guilty of practicing medicine without a license, etc.

Just because someone is called to a high position is no guarantee that he or she will behave properly.  They still have free agency, and there is no such thing as infallibility.  We all must take our hits and move on with our lives.

Why did the leaders protect him?

[James Tunney]

3 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Why did the leaders protect him?

I think it's human nature to want to protect an organization you highly revere from embarrassing information being made public.  However, it was really poor conduct on the part of the leaders if they targeted the messenger as it looks like was done here.  It just compounds the problem.

[JAHS]

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The case you mention may be one from around 20 years ago in which a stake president who was also an M.D. was engaging in molestation

That's probably the same case and unfortunately my wife was one of a small group of people he decided to file a lawsuit against, claiming that they were conspiring against him to ruin his reputation. We didn't even know him. It's like they pulled a few names out of the  stake directory. My wife didn't even know she was being sued until we read about it in the newspaper. Eventually someone did finally come to the house and notified her of the law suit against her. The judge told the man that we might have a good case against him for malicious prosecution. Eventually they dropped the suit against the group of people but not after we had to pay a lawyer a couple thousand dollars. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

If callings are supposed to be inspired by revelation why does God allow some unworthy people to be called in positions of high leadership in the church?

As a test to our faith. 
Or they aren't unworthy when called but they maintained their agency to be so.
Or to fulfill a wise purpose.
Or some other reason known only to God.

And my response when people start arguing "no revelation" because of it is usually to remind them that Christ called Judas as an Apostle.

[JAHS]

15 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Why did the leaders protect him?

I think at first they didn't believe the accusations the person was making against him. There were many that supported him because they couldn't believe their stake president could do such a thing.

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

If callings are supposed to be inspired by revelation why does God allow some unworthy people to be called in positions of high leadership in the church?
For example (true story), a medical doctor is called to be a stake president and serves in that position for several years. Later it is found out that before being called and while serving in this position he was sexually abusing female patients under the guise of "medical procedures", assuring them that what he was doing would help cure their medical conditions. He is eventually found guilty of medical malpractice and is now serving time in prison for this and other violations, including practicing medicine without a license.
Lawsuits were brought against him and he in turn falsely brought malicious lawsuits against other innocent people, only to be used as a defense against those suing him. He hurt a lot of innocent people by these things he did. 
I know sometimes callings come by way of desperation rather than inspiration and that no one is perfect, but what do you say to a person who has been severely hurt both emotionally and spiritually by such people, who have supposedly been called by revelation in these high leadership positions? How can they trust the promise that people are called through inspiration from God?

 

This is the reason why we need to pray and get confirmation for ourselves, of inspired things. People in the church aren't perfect, so the process for calling someone can get muddled for one reason or another. Also there have been times when people are called for something in order for the bad to come out into the open, obviously not in this case you have presented though, thereby paving the way for the repentance process to start, even if it means excommunication to start the process. I'm sure once we have attained a level of righteousness that Enoch achieved, I can imagine such mistakes wouldn't happen anymore because everyone would be so in tune that the person wouldn't even be sustained because the Spirit would prompt everyone to oppose sustaining them.

For now you just say to a person who has been severely hurt that we are all in a spiritual hospital, where everyone is a patient in need of spiritual repair, not in some social elite club, and apologize that things like this happen as a result. We can only be there for whatever support we can offer, in an effort to soothe the pain.

[JAHS]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

As a test to our faith. 
Or they aren't unworthy when called but they maintained their agency to be so.
Or to fulfill a wise purpose.
Or some other reason known only to God.

And my response when people start arguing "no revelation" because of it is usually to remind them that Christ called Judas as an Apostle.

All good points. What's hard is when we hear from the pulpit that all callings are inspired of God. How could God inspire church leaders to put such a man in a calling of high trust where many members were hurt because they trusted him. He was the stake president for many of his patients. Perhaps we should only say that, when done correctly, "most" callings are inspired of God. 

[CV75]

14 hours ago, JAHS said:

If callings are supposed to be inspired by revelation why does God allow some unworthy people to be called in positions of high leadership in the church?
For example (true story), a medical doctor is called to be a stake president and serves in that position for several years. Later it is found out that before being called and while serving in this position he was sexually abusing female patients under the guise of "medical procedures", assuring them that what he was doing would help cure their medical conditions. He is eventually found guilty of medical malpractice and is now serving time in prison for this and other violations, including practicing medicine without a license.
Lawsuits were brought against him and he in turn falsely brought malicious lawsuits against other innocent people, only to be used as a defense against those suing him. He hurt a lot of innocent people by these things he did. 
I know sometimes callings come by way of desperation rather than inspiration and that no one is perfect, but what do you say to a person who has been severely hurt both emotionally and spiritually by such people, who have supposedly been called by revelation in these high leadership positions? How can they trust the promise that people are called through inspiration from God?

The way this was once explained to me is that calling is from the Lord. Not only does He know what people need to share and develop their spiritual talents, He also knows what they need to repent. He gives us all plenty of rope, for better or worse. And who knows, with His foreknowledge, perhaps a greater number or far more egregious misdeeds and collateral tragedies were prevented by having a calling for  certain period of time.

[Kevin Christensen]

I recall Jesus called one Judas as an apostle... was that a blunder, or was something else going on?

It's a reminder of why I like to ponder Isaiah 55:8-11:

Quote

8 ¶For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

And of course, there is D&C 1:

Quote

Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

 25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

 26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

 27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

 28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[stemelbow]

14 hours ago, JAHS said:

If callings are supposed to be inspired by revelation why does God allow some unworthy people to be called in positions of high leadership in the church?
For example (true story), a medical doctor is called to be a stake president and serves in that position for several years. Later it is found out that before being called and while serving in this position he was sexually abusing female patients under the guise of "medical procedures", assuring them that what he was doing would help cure their medical conditions. He is eventually found guilty of medical malpractice and is now serving time in prison for this and other violations, including practicing medicine without a license.
Lawsuits were brought against him and he in turn falsely brought malicious lawsuits against other innocent people, only to be used as a defense against those suing him. He hurt a lot of innocent people by these things he did. 
I know sometimes callings come by way of desperation rather than inspiration and that no one is perfect, but what do you say to a person who has been severely hurt both emotionally and spiritually by such people, who have supposedly been called by revelation in these high leadership positions? How can they trust the promise that people are called through inspiration from God?

 

I have nothing to say to them that would help, I'm sure.  But I don't think revelation works that way in the Church.  People are called because they know others and have in some way impressed another.  He who offers the calling, prays, sure and feels good about the calling, the person being called and all that.  But certainly nothing is foolproof. 

I'm pretty sure I've heard of the guy you are referencing.  It was a terrible situation for sure.  For a while he seemed supported by other local leaders, defending him as allegations came out.  It's a lesson in we give certain men too much authority, too much leeway, too much influence.  We need to be more cautious, which I think we are more cautious these days.  Then again, it wasn't too long ago when a youth leader in the Oakland area was convicted(?) of abusing children. 

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, JAHS said:

I think at first they didn't believe the accusations the person was making against him. There were many that supported him because they couldn't believe their stake president could do such a thing.

I guess they didn't have the Holy Ghost.

[HappyJackWagon]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

1-As a test to our faith. 
2-Or they aren't unworthy when called but they maintained their agency to be so.
3-Or to fulfill a wise purpose.
4-Or some other reason known only to God.

5-And my response when people start arguing "no revelation" because of it is usually to remind them that Christ called Judas as an Apostle.

*I numbered to respond.

1-Test of our faith? God sure seems to be trying to test/trick us a lot by requiring us to put our faith in faulty men even though the scriptures implore us NOT to put our trust in the arm of the flesh. Perhaps God has put a cap on the number who will receive exaltation and when too many people are doing well he's got to throw a good faith test in their to test them to cull the herd and keep the celestial population manageable.

2- ? Unworthy people are called to lead because they have agency to be worthy? That sure sets the bar low.

3&4- We can only hope.

5- Was Judas a betrayer and reprobate when Jesus chose him as an apostle? Or did those behaviors come later? If they came later it seems very reasonable for Jesus to choose someone who later used their agency to make bad decisions. We all do that.

But to the OP- I think members of the church so often conflate Church with God, that there seems to be little difference. So when they say "called by God" they are really meaning "Called by church so it must be from God, right?"

The problem with talking about all callings being directly from God, as if the leader issuing the calling has a direct line to God, is that each person called to a position is stamped with the God Stamp. God chose that rotten SP so there must be a reason to have a molester serving in that calling. No. Good men did the best they could with the information they had available to them. They chose a scoundrel. It was a mistake. Mistakes happen. The bigger mistake is attributing the error to God, when it was really the error of men.

 

[Jeanne]

I wonder what would have happened after this particular calling if someone had prayed..or knew anything about this person..would anyone have listened?  What good is this revelation if you can;t be sure or trust..or even in prayer sustain someone in a calling.  It serves no purpose. 

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I wonder what would have happened after this particular calling if someone had prayed..or knew anything about this person..would anyone have listened?  What good is this revelation if you can;t be sure or trust..or even in prayer sustain someone in a calling.  It serves no purpose. 

Sure.  No doubt people prayed about this individual, even for the callings he received.  It says something about callings as coming from God, I'd say.  It says something about what it means to pray about this stuff.

I remember one of my bishop's being called and the ward getting pretty upset about--at least many of the older members.  Soon after the stake president came to our ward to condemn the members for their lack of belief, because he absolutely knew there was no one in the ward who could do the job that needed to be done other than the guy he called.  He said he knew the calling was from God.  I think the members gave up on their complaints after that.  I shrugged my shoulders thinking there were any number of guys in the ward who could have done it just fine.  But this SP had a particular desire to get a cool group of younger guys called to leadership positions in the stake.  This Bishop fit the bill and they all became clickish friends.  As soon as he was released he was a part of the high council with other younger cool dudes. 

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sure.  No doubt people prayed about this individual, even for the callings he received.  It says something about callings as coming from God, I'd say.  It says something about what it means to pray about this stuff.

I remember one of my bishop's being called and the ward getting pretty upset about--at least many of the older members.  Soon after the stake president came to our ward to condemn the members for their lack of belief, because he absolutely knew there was no one in the ward who could do the job that needed to be done other than the guy he called.  He said he knew the calling was from God.  I think the members gave up on their complaints after that.  I shrugged my shoulders thinking there were any number of guys in the ward who could have done it just fine.  But this SP had a particular desire to get a cool group of younger guys called to leadership positions in the stake.  This Bishop fit the bill and they all became clickish friends.  As soon as he was released he was a part of the high council with other younger cool dudes. 

Sometimes I think is who you know..and who knows you..your parents ..whatever. 

[HappyJackWagon]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Sometimes I think is who you know..and who knows you..your parents ..whatever. 

Sometimes, maybe. But I think in most cases the authority issuing the call does their absolute best to assess strengths, weaknesses etc, as well as seeking confirmation from God. That may simply be confirmation bias but I do think it's taken seriously.

The calling of Stake Presidents is different because the visiting authority doesn't know any of the people he's considering. They may have filled out a brief questionnaire in advance and he'll have an interview, but that's it. The visiting authority must rely on his feelings and first impressions unless God directly intervenes and tells him who to call. But in the case of the OP it seems very unlikely God would tell him to choose a molester so it's easy to imagine how an authority could be fooled by a simple interview.

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Sometimes, maybe. But I think in most cases the authority issuing the call does their absolute best to assess strengths, weaknesses etc, as well as seeking confirmation from God. That may simply be confirmation bias but I do think it's taken seriously.

The calling of Stake Presidents is different because the visiting authority doesn't know any of the people he's considering. They may have filled out a brief questionnaire in advance and he'll have an interview, but that's it. The visiting authority must rely on his feelings and first impressions unless God directly intervenes and tells him who to call. But in the case of the OP it seems very unlikely God would tell him to choose a molester so it's easy to imagine how an authority could be fooled by a simple interview.

Not to disagree with you, but to clarify, it's not as if the visiting authority has no names to consider, no recommendations, when new SP's are called and considered.  He's not considering the whole of the men in the stake. 

 

[CMZ]

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/10.37?lang=eng#37

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Not to disagree with you, but to clarify, it's not as if the visiting authority has no names to consider, no recommendations, when new SP's are called and considered.  He's not considering the whole of the men in the stake. 

 

A visiting authority typically interviews Bishops, high councilors, and any other M Priesthood holders the old SP may suggest. There may also be recommendations from the outgoing SP about who he thinks would be a good SP, but absent divine intervention, the authority is basically blind in issuing the calling. Also, considering the fact that the interviews-call-sustaining happens in just a couple of days, one has to wonder if there is any kind of background check done. IMO- sure should be.

[Ahab]

6 hours ago, JAHS said:

All good points. What's hard is when we hear from the pulpit that all callings are inspired of God. How could God inspire church leaders to put such a man in a calling of high trust where many members were hurt because they trusted him. He was the stake president for many of his patients. Perhaps we should only say that, when done correctly, "most" callings are inspired of God. 

I think of a calling as a job in the Church, rather than a calling being the person who is chosen for a particular calling/ job, so to me the idea that every calling/job in the Church is inspired by God doesn't depend on who is chosen to do that job/calling.  

Kinda the same as the idea that the Church is perfectly organized even though the members of the Church still have their own personal weaknesses.

It's not the fault of the job/calling when somebody messes up in their job/ calling, or outside of their job/ calling either.

[The Nehor]

On 7/31/2016 at 6:03 PM, JAHS said:

If callings are supposed to be inspired by revelation why does God allow some unworthy people to be called in positions of high leadership in the church?
For example (true story), a medical doctor is called to be a stake president and serves in that position for several years. Later it is found out that before being called and while serving in this position he was sexually abusing female patients under the guise of "medical procedures", assuring them that what he was doing would help cure their medical conditions. He is eventually found guilty of medical malpractice and is now serving time in prison for this and other violations, including practicing medicine without a license.
Lawsuits were brought against him and he in turn falsely brought malicious lawsuits against other innocent people, only to be used as a defense against those suing him. He hurt a lot of innocent people by these things he did. 
I know sometimes callings come by way of desperation rather than inspiration and that no one is perfect, but what do you say to a person who has been severely hurt both emotionally and spiritually by such people, who have supposedly been called by revelation in these high leadership positions? How can they trust the promise that people are called through inspiration from God?

To give them enough rope to hang themselves.

[Robert F. Smith]

22 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Why did the leaders protect him?

I don't know whether they did.  That is a claim that was made.  I'd love to see the investigation reports from the prosecutor's office, or on file at the State Medical Board.  I have no idea what actually happened, or what that former stake president is doing now.  I used to visit regularly on assignment with the LDS group at a medium security federal prison, and I got the impression (we never asked) that some of those guys could have been bishops or stake presidents before being caught by the Feds.  Naturally all were excommunicants, so we never provided the Sacrament.  However, they ran very good meetings each Sunday, and I loved hearing their testimonies.  One was a lawyer.  I imagine they committed mainly white collar crimes, but there may have been some molesters among them.