The horrific inconsistency

[Atheist Mormon]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3983987-155/whats-it-like-to-be-a 

But this kid is extremely lucky to grow up in an environment which will provide immeasurable opportunities for him to grow up. Now that I'm over 60 this type of lifestyle was an absolute no_no, where I grew up we didn't even know it existed. I don't know if anyone who still believes this lifestyle is a "choice", as believers used to tout. Nowadays we know it is biological that over 10% (give_take).... 

God that we worshiped throughout centuries didn't know much about science and Humanity he created, like a clean score sheet He was consistently wrong side of the issues....How is this justified nowadays to your satisfaction?  

[Maedros]

That kind of lifestyle is still very socially unacceptable in my country - such a child would have a very difficult life here. Although, I've known a few 'moffies' growing up and in the end they were still loved and accepted.

A South African slang word meaning a guy who dresses and acts like a girl. It does not necessarily refer to all gay men but rather to those who display female tendencies i.e. drag queens and cross-dressers etc.

Hey Scott, was that a skirt I saw you wearing yesterday, and with your hair all done up? You looked like a moffie!!!

[thesometimesaint]

We are not  our trials. We are how we respond to them.

[Maestrophil]

Some, (including me) may strongly disagree that providing a child the ability to choose gender is a blessing to the child.  I feel it is a dangerous precedent and not good parenting. 

What if God that we worship knows more about us than we do or will, and his reasoning, though not always clear to us and our 'advanced' thinking, is actually just what we need to follow.

I personally call foul - I think this is not good parenting.  

[Atheist Mormon]

14 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Some, (including me) may strongly disagree that providing a child the ability to choose gender is a blessing to the child.  I feel it is a dangerous precedent and not good parenting. 

What if God that we worship knows more about us than we do or will, and his reasoning, though not always clear to us and our 'advanced' thinking, is actually just what we need to follow.

I personally call foul - I think this is not good parenting.  

So hard to disagree with you here.....Especially from my POW where I was brought up in a very sexist culture, even Europe I lived in early eighties was sexist, gender defined....

But I wouldn't go as far as "bad parenting" before knowing the facts about this.....

[smac97]

I think our society's approach to "transgender" issues is profoundly problematic in several respects.  This morning I read the following article:

Quote

I Wish I Had Been Told About These Risks Before I Had Gender Surgery
Walt Heyer    / June 09, 2016

Many Americans are unaware of the serious problems that face transgender persons.

For instance, a 2016 study comparing 20 Lebanese transgender participants to 20 control subjects reported that transgender individuals suffer from more psychiatric pathologies compared to the general population. More than 50 percent had active suicidal thoughts and 45 percent had had a major depressive episode.

While it may not be politically correct to link psychological disorders with the transgender population, the researchers see the evidence that a link exists. As a former transgender person, I wish the guy who approved me for gender surgery would have told me about the risks.

The article outlines several disturbing elements of how our our society - including medical and mental health professionals - approach this issue:

Quote

Quick to Diagnose

The experience of many gender-confused individuals is that medical professionals are quick to reach a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and recommend immediate cross-gender hormone therapy and irreversible reassignment surgery without investigating and treating the coexisting issues. Research has found that powerful psychological issues, such as anxiety disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, or alcohol or drug dependence often accompany gender dysphoria.

Why would such "coexisting issues" not be evaluated prior to gender reassignment surgery?  The only reason I can think of is that there are very powerful social pressures at work which operate to discourage such evaluations.  Gender reassignment surgery has become politicized.  The medical and mental health professionals involved cannot question whether such a surgery is appropriate because it has become an issue of rights, and less an issue of proper medical or mental health treatment and ethics.  

I can imagine that many medical or mental health experts would not want to imperil their careers and employment and professional and personal reputations by asking questions which are germane to gender reassignment surgery and "coexisting issues," but which are also politically incorrect in our current climate.  As the author notes, gender reassignment surgery is, as I understand it, largely irreversible.  That the medical and mental health professions are ignoring important issues which may coexist with gender dysphoria is disturbing.  That these people may be ignoring these important issues under real or perceived threats to their careers / employment / reputations is really disturbing.

Quote

A study published in JAMA Pediatrics in March 2016 shows a high prevalence of psychiatric diagnoses in a sample of 298 young transgender women aged 16 through 29 years old.

More than 40 percent had coexisting mental health or substance dependence diagnoses. One in five had two or more psychiatric diagnoses. The most commonly occurring disorders were major depressive episodes and non-alcohol psychoactive substance use dependence.

Yet, transgender individuals are never required to undergo any objective test to prove their gender dysphoria—because no diagnostic objective test exists.

Wow.  Wow.

Quote

The cause of this condition can’t be verified through lab results, a brain scan, or review of the DNA make-up.

Research studies from 2013 and 2009 looking for a “transgender gene” showed not a smidgeon of abnormality in the genetic make-up that causes someone to be transgender.

No alterations in the main sex-determining genes in male-to-female transsexual individuals were found, suggesting strongly that male-born transgender persons are normal males biologically.

All the more reason to be cautious and prudent with proceeding with something as medically and psychologically radical and risky as gender reassignment surgery.

And yet such caution and prudence does not seem to be happening.

And the absence of that caution and prudence seems to be arising from powerful forces who are interested in politics, power, and social engineering, and not particularly interested in the health and welfare of people with gender dysphoria.  Recognizing the interrelatedness that can and does arise between gender dysphoria and substantial coexisting mental health issues would be . . . awkward.  So the Powers That Be are ignoring that interrelatedness, and they are apparently coercing mental health and medical professionals (at least I hope so - as that would be preferable to discovering that large swaths of our medical and mental health professionals are Mengeles-In-Training).

Quote

Psychological Care Urgently Needed

The study concluded that improved access to medical and psychological care “are urgently needed to address mental health and substance dependence disorders in this population.”

On the contrary, it did not conclude that improved access to bathrooms, hormones, or surgery are urgently needed.

I'm glad to hear of this conclusion.  But we do not seem to be paying much attention to it.

Quote

A 2015 study of 118 individuals diagnosed with gender dysphoria found that 29.6 percent were also found to have dissociative disorders and a high prevalence of lifetime major depressive episodes (45.8 percent), suicide attempts (21.2 percent), and childhood trauma (45.8 percent).

It also remarked that differentiating between a diagnosis of dissociative disorder and gender dysphoria is difficult because the two can closely resemble each other.

Another study found a “surprisingly high prevalence of emotional maltreatment” in the 41 transsexuals studied. It called for further investigation to clarify the effects of traumatic childhood experiences and the correlation between transsexualism and dissociative identity.

These studies do not jibe with popular sociopolitical narratives about sexual identity, orientation, "fluidity," and so on.  Gender dysphoria can't be construed as a mental health condition.  It can't be associated with other types of mental health disorcers (depression, suicide, childhood trauma, dissociative disorder, etc.).  That would be titanically politically incorrect.  

Quote

That finding tracks with what I experienced in my transgender life. In my life and in the lives of those whose families contact me, traumatic childhood experiences are present 100 percent of the time.

Childhood Gender Dysphoria

One area where medical professionals should tread lightly is in the diagnosis and treatment of children who have gender identity issues.

A 2015 study aimed to gather input from pediatric endocrinologists, psychologists, psychiatrists, and ethicists—both those in favor and those opposed to early treatment—to further the ethical debate.

The results showed no consensus on many basic topics of childhood gender dysphoria and insufficient research to support any recommendations for childhood treatments, including the currently published guidelines that recommend suppressing puberty with drugs until age 16, after which cross-sex hormones may be given.

An analysis of the 38 youth referrals for gender dysphoria to the Pediatric Endocrinology Clinic at the University School of Medicine in Indianapolis showed that more than half had psychiatric and/or developmental comorbidities.

I cannot comprehend that these comorbidities are being ignored or disregarded.

Quote

Transgender Persons Are Struggling Psychologically

Transgender individuals need psychotherapy not access to cross-sex restrooms, showers, and dressing areas. Blaming society for the ills of transgender persons will not improve their diagnosis and treatment.

I agree with this statement.  I also think blaming mental health conditions associated with gender dysphoria on subsets of society who are acting on good faith, reasoned, benevolent bases (including but not limited to the LDS Church) is not healthy or appropriate.

But sadly, it will continue to happen.

Quote

Reckless disregard for the mental disorders in favor of enforcing preferred pronouns is madness. It’s time to show compassion by telling the truth and stop pretending they are born that way.

I'm not sure this will happen.  Once gender dysphoria (as part of "Transgender") was added to the Gay Rights Movement acronym ("LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual)"), it became an identity, like race or gender, and not a medical or mental health condition.

Quote

True compassion is acknowledging the mental disorders and providing effective, sound treatment in an effort to slow the staggering number of suicides, before rushing to perform irreversible surgeries.

I concur wholeheartedly with this statement.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 20, 2016 by smac97

[bluebell]

The American College of Pediatricians has come out stating that it is harmful to teach children that they can choose their gender.

Here is the article.

[Maestrophil]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

So hard to disagree with you here.....Especially from my POW where I was brought up in a very sexist culture, even Europe I lived in early eighties was sexist, gender defined....

But I wouldn't go as far as "bad parenting" before knowing the facts about this.....

I definitely would - There were all kinds of things I thought were good for me, or that I wanted when a child, that my parents and culture helped me grow out of - some may have been unfortunate, like possibly discouraging creative thinking, but as a whole, I am glad my parents did not indulge my childhood thinking - including wanting to be: Superman, GI Joe, british, Jimi Hendrix, a person who can eat cake for every meal. They taught me and gently course corrected me to a better understanding.  

I see so many kids now, not just with gender issues, but with unrestrained access to media, video games, comics and fantasy/role play that extend way into their adult years.  Many of these young adults (I am a stake YM president) are not capable of real relationships, jobs or serving a full-time mission without coming home early - all because thier parents wanted them to be 'happy' and 'free'.  But they are not living up to all they could be in my opinion.  I love all of them, which hurts me as I see some really struggle.

Sometimes, many times, being a good parent is telling your kids what they can not do, be, and have.  I'm glad my Earthly and Heavenly parents did that for me.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Maestrophil

[The Nehor]

Unnecessary Self mutilation is very rarely a wise option. Calling it medicine is a bit insane.

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

Some, (including me) may strongly disagree that providing a child the ability to choose gender is a blessing to the child.  I feel it is a dangerous precedent and not good parenting. 

What if God that we worship knows more about us than we do or will, and his reasoning, though not always clear to us and our 'advanced' thinking, is actually just what we need to follow.

I personally call foul - I think this is not good parenting.  

I'm not going to pretend to know what the solution is to the transgender issue. I have realized, however, in my 53 years on this planet that everybody is created a little differently. Some of those differences are socially acceptable (some only recently), while others aren't. It also seems that there is a religious foundation for many of unacceptable differences. I believe that since this country allegedly has a separation of church and state, we need to be careful how we allow religious dogma to influence how we determine which differences are tolerable and which aren't.

[Maestrophil]

5 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I'm not going to pretend to know what the solution is to the transgender issue. I have realized, however, in my 53 years on this planet that everybody is created a little differently. Some of those differences are socially acceptable (some only recently), while others aren't. It also seems that there is a religious foundation for many of unacceptable differences. I believe that since this country allegedly has a separation of church and state, we need to be careful how we allow religious dogma to influence how we determine which differences are tolerable and which aren't.

Thinking.  Of course, I agree that we should not use religion as a basis for public policy.  As Bluebell pointed out, science is not currently supporting this view regarding children.   It just happens to coincide with current LDS teachings.  

 

From the article she posted

"8. Conditioning children into believing that a lifetime of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex is normal and healthful is child abuse. Endorsing gender discordance as normal via public education and legal policies will confuse children and parents, leading more children to present to “gender clinics” where they will be given puberty-blocking drugs. This, in turn, virtually ensures that they will “choose” a lifetime of carcinogenic and otherwise toxic cross-sex hormones, and likely consider unnecessary surgical mutilation of their healthy body parts as young adults."

[Avatar4321]

mutilating ones body because you don't want to come to terms with what gender you actually are does not seem at all healthy.

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Unnecessary Self mutilation is very rarely a wise option. Calling it medicine is a bit insane.

Totally agree, It's like doing liposuction on someone who is anorexic. Not medicine at all and totally goes against the Hippocratic oath. Clearly these people need help.

[Storm Rider]

There is such a demand for just plain old common sense!  You don't allow a young child to play with a rattle snake any more than you would allow them to think they can choose what gender they are.  Why in heavens would allow a little boy or girl that may already be exhibiting a degree of gender confusion in their formative years be even further confused by reinforcing their confusion by allowing them to think there is a choice?!?  

The article talked about this boy wanting to play with glittery toys and finally the mom gave in and allowed.  How about removing the choice while the child is so young?  How about 

Healthy?  Oh give me patience.  This is not wise; it is not enlightened; it is bending so far backwards that people's brains spill out as a sacrifice to "open-mindedness".  Certain segments of society are pushing this issue down the throats of society and stifling any question that it is not "right" or "healthy" to allow little Johnny to wear a dress.  Then you want to know why there are problems?  

There are real situations, science based reasons, why an individual has physical reasons for being confused - their DNA is XYY or XXY or something else the interplay of genes SRY and/or SOX9 complexities during gestational development.  These are the cases that need ongoing serious study.  However, a child should be encouraged, not forced, but encouraged to build their identity within the bounds of their own gender.  As I write this I already hear the keys be banged out to refute gender differences, etc.  

I am NOT saying the parents in the situations described in the article are wrong...yet. But I readily see areas in the one situation where confusion was enhanced rather than clarified.  Parenting IS NOT and never has been allowing children to make decisions for themselves when they are so young they have no understanding or knowledge of what it is they are deciding.  

 

[Thinking]

40 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Thinking.  Of course, I agree that we should not use religion as a basis for public policy.  As Bluebell pointed out, science is not currently supporting this view regarding children.   It just happens to coincide with current LDS teachings.  

 

From the article she posted

"8. Conditioning children into believing that a lifetime of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex is normal and healthful is child abuse. Endorsing gender discordance as normal via public education and legal policies will confuse children and parents, leading more children to present to “gender clinics” where they will be given puberty-blocking drugs. This, in turn, virtually ensures that they will “choose” a lifetime of carcinogenic and otherwise toxic cross-sex hormones, and likely consider unnecessary surgical mutilation of their healthy body parts as young adults."

That's why I said that I don't know what the solution is. I agree that science may agree with religious dogma which is why we shouldn't automatically choose social policy to be the opposite of that dogma.

[Maestrophil]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

That's why I said that I don't know what the solution is. I agree that science may agree with religious dogma which is why we shouldn't automatically choose social policy to be the opposite of that dogma.

Well said.  One thing is for certain - I don't pretend to understand the dilemma from the perspective of those who have to actually live it.   I am far enough removed from this issue with my own children that I have no place to harshly judge other parents who face the reality of dealing with it and the confusion and pain it must cause.  It's much easier for me to armchair philosophize when it is not my kid facing these social challenges.

 

Edited as always because my spelling stinks!  :-)

Edited June 20, 2016 by Maestrophil

[Calm]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

The American College of Pediatricians has come out stating that it is harmful to teach children that they can choose their gender.

Here is the article.

Not to discredit their medical qualifications, but it appears to me the group was formed for political reasons less than as a standard professional association:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_College_of_Pediatricians

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not to discredit their medical qualifications, but it appears to me the group was formed for political reasons less than as a standard professional association:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_College_of_Pediatricians

Thanks for putting that out there.

[ALarson]

I've been reading this topic with interest because we had a similar situation in our ward about 6 months ago and I'm not sure we handled things correctly in hindsight.  I actually don't know for sure what would have been the right way to handle it.

A couple in our ward (who had been completely inactive) began attending church again.  It was apparent from the start that they were not the standard young Mormon couple.   She had different colored hair almost every week (pink, green, purple, etc....I preferred the pink actually ) and he had a lot of tattoos and some piercings.  They were just quirky....but I like quirky and always enjoyed visiting with them.  It always put a smile on my face when I saw them walk in for sacrament meeting.

They had 3 kids and the oldest was a boy who was 6 years old.  He was cute and well behaved and seemed to love primary at first.  Then, one week he showed up with very bright pink glitter polish on his fingernails.  I saw it and just thought, "oh well, his Mom or little sisters were probably putting it on and he wanted it on too".  Not something I would have done with my son, but I just kind of shrugged it off.

Later that Sunday, the Bishop got a call from the Mom saying her son had come home from primary crying because kids were teasing him about his nail polish.  She wanted us to call these kids in with their parents and talk to them.  The Bishop thought that was extreme, but he did talk to the primary president who said she'd prepare a sharing time about not judging, not saying anything that might hurt someone's feelings and so on.

Jump forward a few weeks and this little boy shows up at church wearing a pink tutu.  He was wearing it over his church clothes (and had his nails painted colors as he had since that first week).  It was huge too!  I don't know how anyone could even sit next to him.  Of course we got another call from his Mom complaining that kids had again made fun of him, this time for wearing the tutu.  She then told us that he'd actually wanted to wear a dress, but she'd convinced him to just wear the pink tutu over his regular clothes. She said that her and her husband didn't believe in stunting their kids imaginations or telling them what sex they definitely were as they should figure that out on their own, etc.   

After that week, this little boy continued to wear the tutu every week and then finally wore just a skirt with a shirt.   Well, of course the kids laughed at him (especially the older ones) and teased him.  I know this isn't right to do of course, but how do you handle that?  The Mom wanted us to hold a special meeting with all the primary kids and their parents to chew them out.

I felt awful for the Bishop.  He tried to talk to the parents about how all kids should dress appropriately for church, how some would wear their bathing suit or shorts if they could, etc.  But, the Mom replied with how she thought this would be teaching him to hide who he was sexually if they only allowed him to be himself at home.  His teacher reached out to him over and over again too and of course did all she could to discourage anything the other kids did or said that would hurt him. 

Long story short, they stopped coming to church over this.  I felt awful because I really loved this family.  They have since moved away and I still feel bad about it.  But, I cannot imagine that a parent wouldn't know that kids are going to tease in this situation.  In a perfect world, no one would judge or ridicule, but we all know this world is not perfect.

.

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by ALarson

[saemo]

Purposely making their kid's life miserable, is what I see.Parents should be checked for Munchausen syndrome by proxy. But because it's presented as a "gender issue", nothing will happen. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by saemo

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, saemo said:

Purposely making their kid's life miserable, is what I see.Parents should be checked for Munchausen syndrome by proxy. But because it's presented as a "gender issue", nothing will happen. 

Sometimes I think the nation should require that individuals get a license before they are enabled to have children.  We are each just human beings, but really some of us have no business raising children.  

Within my extended family we have several children with real challenges - physical, mental, emotional, etc.  However, we do not have a a situation where there is any degree of gender confusion.  None of us is qualified to judge these situations we hear about or read about regarding transgender children or adults.  

However, what is clear to me is that 1) no one knows how many transgender children/people are in the population, 2)  the psychology industry is all over the map and they spearhead "syndromes" and all other new mental issues and I think they probably do far more harm than good, 3)  children need role models - a man and a woman - to pattern their behaviors after.  4)  Forcing children to choose their gender or teaching that it is a choice is abuse.  

Children need to grow in a supportive environment and it will take years before they actually decide who they will be in this life.  I think there are extremely few people who know exactly who they are as infants, toddlers, teenagers, or young adults.  Trying to tell me that your child or you are one of those extremely rare people is not going to win a lot of brownie points for being enlightened.  

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3983987-155/whats-it-like-to-be-a 

But this kid is extremely lucky to grow up in an environment which will provide immeasurable opportunities for him to grow up. Now that I'm over 60 this type of lifestyle was an absolute no_no, where I grew up we didn't even know it existed. I don't know if anyone who still believes this lifestyle is a "choice", as believers used to tout. Nowadays we know it is biological that over 10% (give_take).... 

God that we worshiped throughout centuries didn't know much about science and Humanity he created, like a clean score sheet He was consistently wrong side of the issues....How is this justified nowadays to your satisfaction?  

I was not aware God wrote ans science manuals to be wrong or right? What did I miss, I do try to be well read for a redneck?

 

[mnn727]

When I was 4 or 5 I wanted to be a girl. I grew out of it. Thank God my parents knew it was a silly childish phase I was going through for a few days. I got over it quickly. 

[saemo]

Gosh kids experiment. Today child curiosity is viewed as the kid expressing who they are, and parents gotta helicopter in to ensure the curiosity does in fact become a character definition. Happens with more than gender curiosity. 

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, ALarson said:

I've been reading this topic with interest because we had a similar situation in our ward about 6 months ago and I'm not sure we handled things correctly in hindsight.  I actually don't know for sure what would have been the right way to handle it

I don't know if you (the ward) really, honestly could have done better. Kids can be pretty rough, particularly in the primary age where flexibility about rules are less flexible than when they're older. Expecting children to act like adults and maintain complex morality and acceptance of identities and a developmental stage that they're naturally not good at it isn't reasonable. But even if, hypothetically, they could have gotten every kid in that ward to not tease him the expectations of the parents still feels unrealistic and not preparing the child well to live in a society where that's bound to happen at some point, somewhere. Even if you view gender and sexual expression as a social construction, Social constructions are still what people lived by. They're ingrained into cultural language, developments, and expectations. Even in cultures where there is an acceptance of more genders or trans people, there are still expectations and parameters around these as well. The idea of complete freedom to ID as one pleases is one that I don't know if we really see and I don't know if really works. No one is an island from society. So to me it feels a little too whimsical with not enough grounding in social realities. Raising a child to "not see" or take part in a major social construct, be it race, religion, gender, etc isn't helping them, it's blinding them and leaving them open for more struggle than was needed.

And that's before we get into stats. Most children who have some form of gender dysphoria don't once they're older (80% will identify with the biological gender...this stat I got from a seminar while in my masters program). It's a greater qualifier for later homosexual sexual orientations, not actual trans populations. It's once they're past puberty (12-14) that this is expected to be more persistent. 

For the most part, transgender ID is up to the person, but I do think that any permanent changes shouldn't be made until they're adults. I also have some concerns about adults who've been on hormone treatments for ages and then having biological children from their intact wombs. I don't think there is enough data on possible effects on it for it to be safe and fetal development is pretty fragile as it is.  

On the grander scheme of an LDS context. I'm comfortable with some ambiguity and am with christofferson on this when it's stated we don't know enough. We don't....and I think in some ways we still have limited knowledge. I don't think our society now has it perfectly right either. Just as I don't think we LDS or the rest of society have it perfectly right on just about anything to do with gender whether it be identity, roles, or expectations. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited June 21, 2016 by BlueDreams