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Over the years I have seen many fall way from the Gospel. Some because of writings that were proven false, Church history, apathy and disillusion to name a few. Lately over translation issues and historical accounts of these methods. Also in the past, articles and books later debunked. But as far as such things in the past, which have been debunked, generations now have no idea of their of anything to do with Mormonism, except the anger that has been passed down. I was in Nauvoo on vaction back in 1994, were non-members who found out I was Mormon told me that outside of Nauvoo (the old city site) I was told not to mention it. I went on a trip to Missouri with friends, my wife and I had to go to a time share sales pitch and decided to purchase a trial package...afterwards the lady doing the presentation asked what Church did we attend, along with other questions. She did so because she was very religious and I am sure she wanted to make sure we were "saved", which was very nice. When we told her we were LDS, she got quiet and whispered, "Don't tell anyone around here". 

I mention this, because many in the ant-Mormon world have often said to me that there is no way that our leaders truly believe that the claims of Joesph Smith. I have found the opposite to be true via many examples. The Church from the beginning have been a missionary centered Church. Nearly ever revelation Joseph has see and put down n paper were witnessed by others. From the beginning we have been a Temple building Church and continue to be so dispite the cost and sacrifice. Emma was with Joseph when he retrieved the plates and hid them until he could go back and retrieve them. She saw them when he brought them hope...although covered, she acted a scribe for a time and testify that she felt them and notes that she could feel and lift one from another the leaflets. Other scribes the same, noting that Joesph used the U&T as well as the seer stone. Were the plates a fraud, Joseph would not have had Hyrum read from the Book of Mormon as he awaited death. Others saw the U&T, sword of Laban, the Liahona. When Joseph was having issues with Emma and polygamy (a revelation he had received in 1832, Hyrum asked him to use the U&T to write it and he would take it to Emma. This was while n Nauvoo, and Joseph said there was no need because he knew by heart. This is why we know that even though the plates were taken by Moroni, that others items were left behind. Others I Nauvoo witnessed many miracles, and why they gave up all to travel west, losing family members all along the way.

Joseph F Smith (Hyrum's,son) received revelation that is now D&C 138, received October 3, 1918, which is a marvel and a must read. President Snow who saw and met the Saviour in the Salt Lake Temple) hope I got the names and dates correct...working on a memory that gets worse everyday. Wilford Wooduff receiving recelation of polygamy, Spencer W Kimball on the Priesthood ban, dispite much discord among a number of Apostles. President Gordon B Hinkley (who I miss so much) who with his wit and wisdom could make you feel the power of,the Holy Spirit until tears would fall like rain. A side not: I met President Kimball and President Hunter face to face (purely by accident) and Elder Ballard. We were,heading to New York to see some Mormon historical sites, just before Ohio while reading an Ensign, I asked my wife and we took a vote to g west to Nauvoo. Not only did I meet these men of God, but being on the local TV news with President Hinkley and Elder Ballard..."too cool". Another time, I attended the annual Christmas devotional the tickets we sold out, so a very nice brother told us to go to,a certain window,mye told us they always keep back a few for visiting dignitaries. Sure enough, I got four tickets. My family ending up,on the 2nd row sitting behind the entire 12 Apostles and wives. Elder Packer was in the seat in front of me, and when I stuck out my hand he gave me a handshake, and the kids with me the GA's with arm reach with my children and wife. 

Anyway, on the day President Hinkley died we were having Stake Conference, via satellite. One of the speakers was President Monson, he was apologizing for any wrong he had fear done, by especially to someone he had not seen in decades. He felt bad for not sharing the Gospel while he was in the military, I think. During his talk, he was not the confident speaker he usually is, but looking at his watch and struggling with his words, and his comments. I told my wife, "Something is wrong and he is very upset", as he mentioned so many apologies. Something was wrong, his best friend whom he loved dearly was across the road dying, and he was about to have the weight of the Church on his shoulders. So today, know that our Propher also believes. It is not arrogance, but true faith, true belief, true honor and true alliance to the Faith. As Prophets have said in the past and today..."ye who are weary come home".

Again, due to injury...due to my back, everything I type (99.9%) is on an IPad is while holding it up on my knees while laying down. So please forgive misspellings, punctuation and grammar. 

Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee
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Unless the ban was not wrong.  

First, here is the quote from Daniel Peterson about dowsing: Elsewhere DCP described this incident as happening "roughly thirty-five years ago." This does not sound like Daniel Peterson wa

I shouldn't have been so surprised with F&T meeting today, and the mention of Joseph Smith over and over again.  I hadn't seen it as much, like critics say happens, especially in my ward.   I

24 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

That's a sneaky way to bear your testimony. :rolleyes:

But I am a TBM too. Appreciate your comments.

Glenn

Thank was not my intent, but even in thread a part of any poster makes it way in...but no not a testimony. Though I get your meaning...but I will not break the rules, not knowing anyway. I did my best not to do this, TBM, myself. :) 

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2 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

Over the years I have seen many fall way from the Gospel. Some because of writings that were proven false, Church history, apathy and disillusion to name a few. Lately over translation issues and historical accounts of these methods.

I read websites like MormonThink that are critical of the history of our church, didn't affect me at all. I was also a big fan of FairMormon. 

However, learning about selection bias, confirmation bias, patternicity, hallucinations, the improbability Principle, suggestion, and false memory had a far greater effect on me. 

I am not saying the church is false, I simply don't know anymore. 

2 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

I mention this, because many in the ant-Mormon world have often said to me that there is no way that our leaders truly believe that the claims of Joesph Smith.

Of course General Authorities are 100% convinced that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The leaders of the Light of the World Church are also convinced, they also have temples and one apostle. 

2 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

. President Snow who saw and met the Saviour in the Salt Lake Temple)

CFR

 

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12 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:
Quote

15 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

President Snow who saw and met the Saviour in the Salt Lake Temple)

CFR

https://www.lds.org/friend/1993/08/lorenzo-snow-and-the-sacred-vision?lang=eng
 

  • Lorenzo Snow was still at work in his office in the Salt Lake Temple. It was dark outside, and the stars had come out. He was the fifth President of the Church, but he was also serving as the first president of the Salt Lake Temple at the time. He often stayed late into the evening to finish his work.
    President Snow’s granddaughter Allie Young loved to visit him at his office. In those days, family members of the temple president were allowed to visit him there. They were not allowed to go through the entire temple, however, until they were old enough and had been found worthy and ready to make the sacred temple covenants.
    This special evening Allie was with her grandfather in his office. The doorkeepers had gone home and the night watchmen had not yet come in, so they were alone. When Allie was ready to leave, President Snow went to a dresser and took a large bunch of keys from the drawer so that he could let her out the main entrance. Together they walked down a large corridor near the celestial room.
    President Snow suddenly stopped and said, “Wait a moment, Allie. I want to tell you something.” Allie listened intently as her grandfather told her of an unforgettable experience he had once had at that place in the temple: “It was right here that the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me at the time of the death of President Woodruff. He instructed me to go right ahead and reorganize the First Presidency of the Church at once and not wait as had been done after the death of the previous presidents, and that I was to succeed President Woodruff [as President of the Church].”
    President Snow held out his left hand and said, “He stood right here, about three feet above the floor. It looked as though he stood on a plate of solid gold.”
    Still speaking in hushed, reverent tones, President Snow told Allie that the Savior’s appearance was so glorious and bright that he could hardly look at Him.
    President Snow put his right hand on Allie’s head and said, “Now granddaughter, I want you to remember that this is the testimony of your grandfather, that he told you with his own lips that he actually saw the Savior, here in the temple, and talked with him face to face.”

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

https://www.lds.org/friend/1993/08/lorenzo-snow-and-the-sacred-vision?lang=eng
 

  • Lorenzo Snow was still at work in his office in the Salt Lake Temple. It was dark outside, and the stars had come out. He was the fifth President of the Church, but he was also serving as the first president of the Salt Lake Temple at the time. He often stayed late into the evening to finish his work.
    President Snow’s granddaughter Allie Young loved to visit him at his office. In those days, family members of the temple president were allowed to visit him there. They were not allowed to go through the entire temple, however, until they were old enough and had been found worthy and ready to make the sacred temple covenants.
    This special evening Allie was with her grandfather in his office. The doorkeepers had gone home and the night watchmen had not yet come in, so they were alone. When Allie was ready to leave, President Snow went to a dresser and took a large bunch of keys from the drawer so that he could let her out the main entrance. Together they walked down a large corridor near the celestial room.
    President Snow suddenly stopped and said, “Wait a moment, Allie. I want to tell you something.” Allie listened intently as her grandfather told her of an unforgettable experience he had once had at that place in the temple: “It was right here that the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me at the time of the death of President Woodruff. He instructed me to go right ahead and reorganize the First Presidency of the Church at once and not wait as had been done after the death of the previous presidents, and that I was to succeed President Woodruff [as President of the Church].”
    President Snow held out his left hand and said, “He stood right here, about three feet above the floor. It looked as though he stood on a plate of solid gold.”
    Still speaking in hushed, reverent tones, President Snow told Allie that the Savior’s appearance was so glorious and bright that he could hardly look at Him.
    President Snow put his right hand on Allie’s head and said, “Now granddaughter, I want you to remember that this is the testimony of your grandfather, that he told you with his own lips that he actually saw the Savior, here in the temple, and talked with him face to face.”

The synopsized version of this event does not mention that it comes from the journal of a third party to whom Allie allegedly recounted this when she was much older.

The main problem I have with this story, though, is that even if true, it indicates God thinks it much more important to let the prophet know the First Presidency should be reorganized immediately than to let the prophet know the Priesthood Ban was wrong.

 

 

P.S. To Pa Pa--I love you, man.  You are my favorite TBM.  I mean that.

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3 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The synopsized version of this event does not mention that it comes from the journal of a third party to whom Allie allegedly recounted this when she was much older.

The main problem I have with this story, though, is that even if true, it indicates God thinks it much more important to let the prophet know the First Presidency should be reorganized immediately than to let the prophet know the Priesthood Ban was wrong.

Academically it may be a questionable story, but I find no historical reason to make us doubt its veracity.  After all, what she claims President Snow was commanded to do is exactly what he did AND he was the one man on the earth in the position to receive such a revelatory visitation.  I find nothing doctrinally or historically to make me question whether this happened, even if the source isn't up to scholarly standards.

As for which revelations God gives - God has a habit of giving us what we are ready to receive.  Do you think that in 1898 America that as a culture we had left all racism behind us? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States#Post-Reconstruction_Era

Now, it's not like the Church was afraid to ruffle the feathers of society at that time, but given their 2 year old statehood, the recent and ongoing issues with polygamy, do you really think the membership was ready for complete desegregation?

God gives us the leaders, revelations, and instructions we are prepared for.

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3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

God gives us the leaders, revelations, and instructions we are prepared for.

And so once again the problems of the leaders are blamed on the members.

Joseph Smith was ordaining black men to the Priesthood before the Civil War!

This practice was much more controversial in the 1830's than it would have been after slavery was abolished.

 

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8 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

And so once again the problems of the leaders are blamed on the members.

Correct.  And they always have been.  It's Moses and the children of Israel.  It's Christ and the Jews.  It's Jacob and most of his sons.
You say this like it's placing the blame in the wrong place, when that is exactly where the blame should be placed.
My belief is that many of the changes made to the gospel restored by Joseph both for good and for evil have been the result of the desires of the membership.  I 100% believe that.

Quote

Joseph Smith was ordaining black men to the Priesthood before the Civil War!

I question the historical veracity of this statement.  It may have happened or it may not.

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14 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

 

Of course General Authorities are 100% convinced that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The leaders of the Light of the World Church are also convinced, they also have temples and one apostle. 

CFR

 

Your CFR is listed below by another poster concerning President Snow. You did not speak to the fact that other than the first vision that all his other visions were witnessed by other. Also read D&C 101, and the historical events of the Kirtland Temple, dedication. Also are you suggesting that the Apostles testimony of Joseph Smith is100%, so they might retain their position as Apostles...in short accusing them,of lying. Back in 1994 while on vacation in Nauvoo I went a visited the burial of the Prophet (Hyrum's and Emma's by the way) and there praying for a greater testimony, received a full testimony that he was indeed a Prophet of God...a 100% testimony, and I have no high office to protect. Also; even from my youth (although attending a Baptist Church all my life up until 19, when I joined the Church. I have have known that Jesus is the Christ as though he visited me in a vision. A perfect knowledge which if I denied would make me a son of perdition. As for the Priesthood, I have blessed my daughter who had a condition that could only be corrected by surgery, and following that blessing she was cured. This had,her doctors astonished. Then my wife who had a knot in her breast, I gave,her a blessing...on the day of the of her biopsy, they took one more MRI to make sure where it was, and found nothing there. Back on December 7, 2015, I was so near death that doctors told my wife to call in family. Two hours after two members of my Bishopric gave me a blessing I was awake, alert and watching TV, with my wife and two kids at that time (ICU rules) and all was well. I could go on...but that is enough for now. :) 

Bill (Papa) Lee

Atlanta, GA

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2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

 

P.S. To Pa Pa--I love you, man.  You are my favorite TBM.  I mean that.

Thank you, I write from my heart, with no attempt to deceive, and I hope no agenda. As I said before, I loved your "bull eye" comments about the Book of Mormon. I look forward to reading about them in the future. We don't always agree, but I will not and do not dismiss you posts or threads just because of any doubts or disagreements. My many health problems nod two near death issues in the past few months, have stripped me of ego, pride and other negative traits. I find myself searching out God, in an effort to draw closer. Or maybe God is searching out my soul...either way, I am searching my soul as well. God bless you and I to "seek and ye shall find, knock at it shall be opened to you" or all of us. 

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34 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

Thank you, I write from my heart, with no attempt to deceive, and I hope no agenda. As I said before, I loved your "bull eye" comments about the Book of Mormon. I look forward to reading about them in the future. We don't always agree, but I will not and do not dismiss you posts or threads just because of any doubts or disagreements. My many health problems nod two near death issues in the past few months, have stripped me of ego, pride and other negative traits. I find myself searching out God, in an effort to draw closer. Or maybe God is searching out my soul...either way, I am searching my soul as well. God bless you and I to "seek and ye shall find, knock at it shall be opened to you" or all of us. 

Thanks, Pa Pa.

You know, I actually published a paper a couple of years back that deals with some of the most surprising Old World connections in the Book of Mormon seen to date.

Even potentially bigger than chiasmus.

Feel free to PM me if you are interested. ;)

 

 

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2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Correct.  And they always have been.  It's Moses and the children of Israel.  It's Christ and the Jews.  It's Jacob and most of his sons.
You say this like it's placing the blame in the wrong place, when that is exactly where the blame should be placed.
My belief is that many of the changes made to the gospel restored by Joseph both for good and for evil have been the result of the desires of the membership.  I 100% believe that.

 

The problem I have with this position is that the default position is that Church leaders can do no wrong.

I think that view is at the heart of many of the problems in the current LDS Church.

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4 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The problem I have with this position is that the default position is that Church leaders can do no wrong.

And I don't take that view at all.
But I still think the # 1 wrong the Church leaders do is changing because the members want it.
They are very good about standing up against society, but not so much about standing up against shifts in membership demands.

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23 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

but there is not enough evidence. 

Question, do you believe anti-Mormon accounts? Why not? 

Motive.

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1 minute ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

You believe in a third-hand account, but you won't believe a hostile third-hand account. 

It's called double standard. 

Yup.  I definitely have a double standard when looking at the sources of two "accounts".

That's kind of a requirement.  Not all sources have the same motivations, biases, or reliability.  The adversary will provide lots of evidence of lies in order to destroy faith.  The Lord provides less evidence of truth in order to build faith.

Long live the double standard.

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1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Yup.  I definitely have a double standard when looking at the sources of two "accounts".

That's kind of a requirement.  Not all sources have the same motivations, biases, or reliability.  The adversary will provide lots of evidence of lies in order to destroy faith.  The Lord provides less evidence of truth in order to build faith.

Lack of evidence is what bothers me, including lack of spiritual evidence. 

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1 minute ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Lack of evidence is what bothers me, including lack of spiritual evidence. 

What evidence of what spiritual things are you looking for?

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10 hours ago, consiglieri said:

it indicates God thinks it much more important to let the prophet know the First Presidency should be reorganized immediately than to let the prophet know the Priesthood Ban was wrong.

Unless the ban was not wrong.  

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25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What evidence of what spiritual things are you looking for?

A religious experience that convinces me. 

9 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Unless the ban was not wrong.  

What about racist folk doctrines? What took them so long to condemn racist folk doctrines? 

Gospel Topics says, "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else"

Again, so what took them so long? 

 

 

Edited by TheSkepticChristian
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17 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Unless the ban was not wrong.  

shhh. He knows what the answer is he is just trying to bait you in order to change the topic to something he thinks he can control better

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On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 9:58 PM, TheSkepticChristian said:

A religious experience that convinces me. 

What about racist folk doctrines? What took them so long to condemn racist folk doctrines? 

Gospel Topics says, "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else"

Again, so what took them so long? 

 

 

Why did it take almost 2000 years for the Restoration to take place?

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Leaders have their faults and they are constantly effecting decisions made over the years.  It does seem the general direction has been good.  The fullness of the gospel of Christ and how to be happy are present.  Our understanding certainly has changed.  Maybe the membership wasn't ready, even if blacks were.  My black friends seem more interested in what the gospel provides them now instead of what was withheld years ago. I was even in a discussion with someone about whether members were really touched by the extension of the priesthood.  We were very touched and happy, but couldn't convince the naysayer.  

Unfortunately, the priesthood and blacks, polyandry, first vision differences, ssm, etc can all be drug out of the old tool shed anytime they are needed.  I can't count how many threads deteriorate into ssm discussions for example.  Just for the record, Lds members do not hate gays, but are very worried about the redefinition of marriage.  That is what crosses the line for them.  A recent talk by Bruce Hafen called the Temple and the True Order of Marriage discusses how legal rulings continue to attack the entity of marriage and started with the abortion ruling.  Ssm was just the latest attempt at attacking families, contributing to further demise of the family.  Someone trying to play a card of doubt isn't going to change their mind by what I say, though,

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