Mormon persecution alive and well at Idaho State U.

[ALarson]

16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Here.

Fortunately, it's not like the old days. There are costly consequences to such bigotry and bullying, including litigation.

The young man is now serving a mission and has severed ties with the tennis team. Which spells the end of his intercollegiate athletic career at the university.

If someone wanted to launch a legal fund for his case, I'd likely contribute.

 

I'm glad to see that both of these coaches have "retired" for allowing this to continue and even participating in this bullying.  However,  I don't feel this is "Mormon persecution".  

I saw this happen when my son was in high school by the head football coach (and some of the football players) to anyone whose standards were such that they would not drink or have premarital sex.  It turned into quite a scandal when it was revealed that this coach was having after game parties at his house and providing drinks and prostitutes for some of his players.  Those who wouldn't participate or declined to attend, were bullied or called prudes, etc., by the coach and players who did attend (just as the young man in the article you linked to in your OP).  None of  these players were Mormons, but just had good moral standards.  I know this coach lost his job and iirc, there was even legal action brought against him by some of the parents.

I'd imagine this tennis player would have been bullied, Mormon or not if it became known that he had the standards he has and would not have premarital sex or party.  I also don't think it's fair to state that "Mormon persecution" is "alive and well" at this University.  I'd imagine this is an isolated incident and these coaches are out of a job now.

 

[BCSpace]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Anti-Mormon boards are not tax-supported institutions of higher learning.

Indeed.  One goes to those at one's own risk.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

I'm glad to see that both of these coaches have "retired" for allowing this to continue and even participating in this bullying.  However,  I don't feel this is "Mormon persecution".  

I saw this happen when my son was in high school by the head football coach (and some of the football players) to anyone whose standards were such that they would not drink or have premarital sex.  It turned into quite a scandal when it was revealed that this coach was having after game parties at his house and providing drinks and prostitutes for some of his players.  Those who wouldn't participate or declined to attend, were bullied or called prudes, etc., by the coach and players who did attend (just as the young man in the article you linked to in your OP).  None of  these players were Mormons, but just had good moral standards.  I know this coach lost his job and iirc, there was even legal action brought against him by some of the parents.

I'd imagine this tennis player would have been bullied, Mormon or not if it became known that he had the standards he has and would not have premarital sex or party.  I also don't think it's fair to state that "Mormon persecution" is "alive and well" at this University.  I'd imagine this is an isolated incident and these coaches are out of a job now.

 

Fallacious reasoning of the tu quoque kind

[Jeanne]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I worked at a job that fired on the basis of their religion.  It was a woman supervisor and she hated Mormons. The guy that was fired was a perfect employee, but maybe he wore his Mormonism a little too well.  Me, not so much.  I also was let go later, but maybe it was because I smelled a rat and thought the company was doing something illegal.  But will never forget seeing it happening right before my eyes.  

After witnessing that, my respect was lowered for this woman and the company.  I wasn't willing to cross sell products like they wanted me to.  This was University of Utah Credit Union, many, many moons ago.  Probably before laws were pat on this.  Anyway, I'm glad this guy is suing!! Because as I saw happen to this great guy at my work, it was inhumane mental abuse.

It must have been difficult to watch this happen.  I hope the man was able to find a better job elsewhere.  It is mental abuse..sometimes one would feel better with a slap on the face than what comes through verbally on a social level. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Good points.

Except that Mormon persecution even predated the organization of the Church on April 6, 1830. Joseph Smith reported being persecuted for saying that he had seen a vision. And there was an organized boycott against purchase of the Book of Mormon even before it was published, one that almost prevented its publication. As a result of this boycott, Martin Harris lost the money he had mortgaged his farm to provide pursuant to the book's publication.

Yes, I forgot about that...thanks.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

What does that look like? I am asking a serious question, so there is no need for you to view this question as such. 

Not only that, but America loved Carl Sagan (as did I) and held most of the other atheists listed in that video in very high regard (my favorite sci fi writer was always Asimov).  The notion that atheists are mistreated or held in disrepute in America is nonsense, while the active persecution of Mormons has been all too real.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

and Historians (even devout Mormon Historians) believe that Joseph Smith was exaggerating.  

The message I get from historians of Mormonism (both Mormon and non-Mormon) doesn't jibe with that simplistic statement at all.

Again, everyone in persecuted! Mormons, Atheists, Jews. There is no massive liberal persecution on religion, we can see a church in every corner. 

Some are more equal than others, Skeptic.  Religious belief is held in derision in the Academy, and those who want good jobs need to toe the atheist line.

However, there is significantly a lot more persecution on Muslims here in America

Persecution is oscillatory, and America has always been an equal opportunity for persecution country.   Today it is Muslims, yesterday it was Jews and Irishmen, before that Roman Catholics and Mormon.  A little perspective would help you, Skeptic.

A number of Mormon scholars have been actively prevented from completing graduate programs due to anti-Mormon hatred, and I know the victims personally.  Others are prevented from obtaining academic positions.  That is happening less now, although it still occurs.

...........................

 

[Avatar4321]

7 hours ago, BCSpace said:

The verbal treatment outlined in the court document presented is not unlike the treatment one receives on a typical anti-Mormon board.

not really a surprise is it? Message boards whose whole purpose is to bash Mormons necessarily would contain the same spirit as those who persecute the saints.

[sjdawg]

I read the complaint a week or so ago and it is clear the coach was way out of line.   I found it surprising that a Mormon was being targeted in Idaho of all places but if the allegations are true (and based on the internal investigation it appears most/all were confirmed) the player was treated horribly.  

[TheSkepticChristian]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The message I get from historians of Mormonism (both Mormon and non-Mormon) doesn't jibe with that simplistic statement at all.

So where is the evidence that Joseph Smith was persecuted in the 1820s for saying that he had a vision? 

I read Bushman, he doesn't believe Joseph Smith shared his vision of the Father and the Son. 

I read other historians too, they conclude Joseph was too paranoid and exaggerated the alleged persecutions.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Some are more equal than others, Skeptic. Religious belief is held in derision in the Academy, and those who want good jobs need to toe the atheist line.

It's not because of their religious beliefs, it's because of their bad science or scholarship. 

How about Congress? No one admits being an Atheist. 

So where is the evidence that Mormons are more persecuted (bullied) than Atheists? 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A number of Mormon scholars have been actively prevented from completing graduate programs due to anti-Mormon hatred, and I know the victims personally. Others are prevented from obtaining academic positions. That is happening less now, although it still occurs.

Now you are focusing in academics. Academics are only a small portion of the General Population.  In General, where is the evidence that Mormons are more persecuted than Atheists?  

PS A lot of Young Creationists and Climate Science deniers say the same thing. They even made a propaganda documentary. 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed

Edited May 31, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Irrelevant. Doesn't make it OK to persecute Mormons -- or to try to shut down discussion of it when it happens, as you seem intent on doing.

I am simply pointing that out! I am not saying it is okay to persecute Mormons. I am not trying to shut down the discussion.  Please stop making false accusations. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

So where is the evidence that Joseph Smith was persecuted in the 1820s for saying that he had a vision? 

I read Bushman, he doesn't believe Joseph Smith shared his vision of the Father and the Son. 

I read other historians too, they conclude Joseph was too paranoid and exaggerated the alleged persecutions.

You're grasping at straws, Skeptic.  If you want to cite your sources and quote them, your claims here would be more believable.  That's what real science and scholarship is all about.

It's not because of their religious beliefs, it's because of their bad science or scholarship. 

Yeh, that's the party line, as ever with bigots.

How about Congress? No one admits being an Atheist. 

Congress is not the Academy.

So where is the evidence that Mormons are more persecuted (bullied) than Atheists? 

Now you are focusing in academics. Academics are only a small portion of the General Population.  In General, where is the evidence that Mormons are more persecuted than Atheists?

It is precisely in the Academy where the greatest pressure for persecution of Mormons comes in.  You yourself assume, in the absence of evidence, that Mormons cannot cut the academic mustard.  Only fellow atheists are trusted.

PS A lot of Young Creationists and Climate Science deniers say the same thing. They even made a propaganda documentary. 

Since Mormonism is pro-science, you miss the point.  Yokels will be yokels.  As ever.

[TheSkepticChristian]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

10 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

You're grasping at straws, Skeptic.  If you want to cite your sources and quote them, your claims here would be more believable.  That's what real science and scholarship is all about.

I will cite them when I have the time. It's just the MDDB, not a science conference. Same for you, please cite your sources. Where are the Historians that disagree?

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

10 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

 It is precisely in the Academy where the greatest pressure for persecution of Mormons comes in.  You yourself assume, in the absence of evidence, that Mormons cannot cut the academic mustard.  Only fellow atheists are trusted.

Well I wasn't talking about the Academy, I was talking about the general population. The OP was about a Tennis player, not an academic.

and you are changing the subject. You first told me that by persecution you meant "bullying".

and are you sure they "persecute" them just for their Mormonism? or for bad scholarship?  Where is the evidence please.

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

10 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Congress is not the Academy.

I know that. Congress is not friendly to Atheists.

[stemelbow]

THis certainly sounds like a terrible bout of bullying and persecution.  Very few would condone this type of stuff.  How people get away with this in a U setting is just pathetic. 

[Thinking]

21 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

THis certainly sounds like a terrible bout of bullying and persecution.  Very few would condone this type of stuff.  How people get away with this in a U setting is just pathetic. 

They get away with it until somebody tells. He told. Now they're not getting away with it.

[Analytics]

18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Any instance or pattern egregious enough to warrant litigation and an investigation by the Office of Equal Opportunity, Affirmative Action, and Diversity resulting in the pressured resignation of the head coach and the all-but-certain termination of the assistant coach had he not already resigned -- plus the recommendation that he never be re-hired -- is an indication that it is alive and well on the campus.

I would say these things indicate that bigotry isn't tolerated on campus, not that it is alive and well.

[HappyJackWagon]

Bigotry is bad.

Whether it is aimed at Mormons or aimed at others by Mormons, it doesn't matter.

Bigotry is bad.

The end.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Analytics said:

I would say these things indicate that bigotry isn't tolerated on campus, not that it is alive and well.

It was tolerated for too long by one who should have halted it (the head coach) and even perpetrated (allegedly) by another in a position of authority (assistant coach) who (allegedly) behaved more like a 14-year-old hoodlum than a faculty member.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Storm Rider]

6 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I would say these things indicate that bigotry isn't tolerated on campus, not that it is alive and well.

Unfortunately, it was tolerated and accepted by the Athletic Department and the Administration and - worse - by the fellow athletes.  It was ignored until the student himself spoke up and then action was taken.  Several levels of individuals in authority ignored the topic of abuse, persecution, etc., until it was already a problem.  

[Scott Lloyd]

19 hours ago, ALarson said:

I'm glad to see that both of these coaches have "retired" for allowing this to continue and even participating in this bullying.  However,  I don't feel this is "Mormon persecution".  

I saw this happen when my son was in high school by the head football coach (and some of the football players) to anyone whose standards were such that they would not drink or have premarital sex.  It turned into quite a scandal when it was revealed that this coach was having after game parties at his house and providing drinks and prostitutes for some of his players.  Those who wouldn't participate or declined to attend, were bullied or called prudes, etc., by the coach and players who did attend (just as the young man in the article you linked to in your OP).  None of  these players were Mormons, but just had good moral standards.  I know this coach lost his job and iirc, there was even legal action brought against him by some of the parents.

I'd imagine this tennis player would have been bullied, Mormon or not if it became known that he had the standards he has and would not have premarital sex or party.  I also don't think it's fair to state that "Mormon persecution" is "alive and well" at this University.  I'd imagine this is an isolated incident and these coaches are out of a job now.

 

The complaint indicates he was singled out because of his religious affiliation, including being subjected to inappropriate comments and questions of a sexual nature, what in this day and age would be regarded in most environments as sexual harassment. There is some question about an alleged comment made by the head coach regarding Mormonism that he didn't see "how anyone could believe such bullshit," a remark that in, say, a barroom setting might get a person punched out if it were made about a group other than Mormons. However, the investigation was unable to substantiate that the remark was made.

To the credit of the university, when the complaint was made, the matter apparently was investigated thoroughly and it appears appropriate results transpired. I'm willing at this point to give the university the benefit of the doubt and assume that this pattern of behavior is not typical for this university and nothing like it has been repeated since.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

On 5/30/2016 at 1:00 AM, TheSkepticChristian said:

Do you also care about Atheist and Agnostic persecution? 

 

Perhaps you should start another thread about the persecution of agnostics and atheists.  This thread is about the persecution of a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at Idaho State University.  Caring about one doesn't mean you can't care about another, just that this thread is only about one subject.

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps you should start another thread about the persecution of agnostics and atheists.  This thread is about the persecution of a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at Idaho State University.  Caring about one doesn't mean you can't care about another, just that this thread is only about one subject.

That's true, of course.

This was Skeptic's attempt, almost from the moment I began this thread, to shout me down. He doesn't like it when I raise the subject of religious oppression and violation of religious liberty.

[TheSkepticChristian]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That's true, of course.

This was Skeptic's attempt, almost from the moment I began this thread, to shout me down. He doesn't like it when I raise the subject of religious oppression and violation of religious liberty.

Stop making false accusations! I though you cared about the Board Rules! 

12 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps you should start another thread about the persecution of agnostics and atheists.  

i simply pointed out the everyone is persecuted, not just Mormons. 

I am not saying that persecution is okay, I agree we must do something to end bullying. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[Jim Stiles]

On 5/30/2016 at 6:24 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I choose to believe Joseph's own account of his personal experience.
 

Irrelevant. Doesn't make it OK to persecute Mormons -- or to try to shut down discussion of it when it happens, as you seem intent on doing.

For the life of me, I cannot think of another group that has such a powerful persecution complex as Mormons and the LDS Church.  Evangelical Christian religious propaganda suddenly becomes Anti-mormon literature when viewed by the LDS Church.

Does anyone want to see my spec script for The Jeffersons entitled "Guess who is voting Republican"?

[Scott Lloyd]

23 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

For the life of me, I cannot think of another group that has such a powerful persecution complex as Mormons and the LDS Church.  Evangelical Christian religious propaganda suddenly becomes Anti-mormon literature when viewed by the LDS Church.

 

Only when it is overtly in opposition to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Then it is anti-Mormon -- by definition.

And it's not having a "persecution complex" to say so. If it were anti-Catholic or anti-Semitic I would likewise identify it by those descriptors.

I've said it before: If you don't like the term anti-Mormon being applied to you, don't engage in behavior that would make the application of the term accurate. It's really very simple.