Justice, Mercy, Rape, and the Honor Code

[mtomm]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

Who is trying to let the rapist go free?  I never read anyone suggest that.

When someone is afraid to speak up rapists go free. 

 

[MiserereNobis]

10 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

 For a recent example of the devastating effect such revelations have on the prosecution's case google Jian Ghomeshi and his trial.

A total tangent, but I loved Moxy Fruvous back in the 90's.  Yes, I was one of those nerds.  Every now and then I still catch myself singing a song of theirs in my head.

[Danzo]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Since the rape victim IS taking the responsibility to testify, I'm unsure of your point. 

How is your example relevant to the claim that the rape victim is responsible for her rape?  I sincerely don't understand. 

In my example (the case where I served as a juror) the victim declined to testify against the accused.

I was just pointing out that a victim still has some responsibilities.  All responsibilities are not abdicated just by the fact one is a victim.

 

 

[bluebell]

Just now, Danzo said:

In my example (the case where I served as a juror) the victim declined to testify against the accused.

I was just pointing out that a victim still has some responsibilities.  All responsibilities are not abdicated just by the fact one is a victim.

 

 

I completely agree. 

The debate as I have been involved in it is not whether or not a victim might have responsibilities after the crime, but whether or not she is responsible for the crime. 

It had been argued for example, that the BYU rape victim is responsible for (but not guilty of) the rape because of her honor code violations.

 

[Danzo]

Another question for people, 

The way I understand it, living the honor code is part of the requirements to attend and graduate from BYU, When I see a degree from BYU, isn't part of the degree knowing that the person lived the honor code while at BYU?

Other requirements to attend and graduate from BYU  I suspect would include attending classes, turning in assignments, passing exams and paying fees.

Does the Victim get a pass on those requirements as well or just the Honor code.  Could the victim say "I was a victim, so I don't need to pass my exams?", Or "I was a victim so I shouldn't have to pay any fees?", Or "I was a victim so I don't need to turn in any assignments?".

 

For the record, I think the honor code can sometimes by silly (what does facial hair have to do with ones worthiness anyway?), which is one of the reasons I didn't attend BYU.  But I understand that those that choose to go to BYU, choose to follow the honor code as part of that choice, and should therefore be expected to abide by it.

 

[Jeanne]

Danzo, I am hoping I am understanding your question.  In my mind, those students who have excelled in classes, studied, passed, paid and earned a degree..deserve that degree!  A couple of beers on the weekend or any minor infraction should not change that. I have heard of people who have lost their standing in the church who were unable to transfer the transcripts and finish.  I feel this is so wrong.  A rapist??  Shouldn't get out to even finish a degree.

[Calm]

I know a number of professors who allow students to delay finishing classes or taking exams at another time when tragedy strikes their family or they have a physical illness or injury or even emotional difficulties.  Rape causes mental, emotional and physical injury so it makes sense to me that the school works just like in other cases if the administration and faculty have their act together in order to maximize helping the victim heal, including helping with altering any dysfunctional behaviour that occurred before or after any form of trauma.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Calm

[Danzo]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I completely agree. 

The debate as I have been involved in it is not whether or not a victim might have responsibilities after the crime, but whether or not she is responsible for the crime. 

It had been argued for example, that the BYU rape victim is responsible for (but not guilty of) the rape because of her honor code violations.

 

I think that you are mostly right as well.

I personally subscribe to a philosophy  (which may be unpopular here) that while we are held primarily responsible for our own sins, others can also have responsibility as well.

Although, this other responsibility is not directly punishable by the courts, I believe that often, we as a society as well as individually  can have some moral responsibility for bad things that  happen.

For example, in the case of rape, perhaps the rapist's parents neglected or abused the rapist, perhaps his church leaders did not pay enough attention to him, perhaps someone saw what was about to happen and did not intervene, perhaps he raped someone else in the past and was not reported by the victim.  Perhaps he needed mental help that wasn't made available to him. After the crime has been committed, police, prosecutors, jurors, jailers and counselors have responsibilities. Neglecting those responsibilities can be contributory to the next crime that occurs.

While we need not be held to the same consequences as the perpetrator, we should all try to look at ourselves and try and do better to see if we our actions might contribute and do better. 

It is in this sense that the victim might have responsibilities. 

 

 

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Danzo, I am hoping I am understanding your question.  In my mind, those students who have excelled in classes, studied, passed, paid and earned a degree..deserve that degree!  A couple of beers on the weekend or any minor infraction should not change that. I have heard of people who have lost their standing in the church who were unable to transfer the transcripts and finish.  I feel this is so wrong.  A rapist??  Shouldn't get out to even finish a degree.

Degrees from different university have different requirements based on the values of that institution. 

While what you describe might be sufficient for a degree from other universities, the way I understand it, a degree from BYU  might have an added value (which may or may not be important to other people).

The same as a Degree from MIT might mean something different based on their different requirements.

 

 

[Danzo]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

I know a number of professors who allow students to delay finishing classes or taking exams at another time when tragedy strikes their family or they have a physical illness or injury or even emotional difficulties.  Rape causes mental, emotional and physical injury so it makes sense to me that the school works just like in other cases if the admistration and faculty has their act together in order to maximize helping the victim heal, including helping with altering any dysfuntional behaviour that occurred before or after any form of trauma.

I agree that Mercy should allow for accommodations as a result of tragedies.  The question is always how much accommodation and at what point the does the accommodations become too much.

 

Although we may feel sorry for someone who's personal tragedy kept the from finishing medical school, we probably wouldn't want them to perform surgery on us. 

Edited April 16, 2016 by Danzo

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Danzo, I am hoping I am understanding your question.  In my mind, those students who have excelled in classes, studied, passed, paid and earned a degree..deserve that degree!  A couple of beers on the weekend or any minor infraction should not change that. I have heard of people who have lost their standing in the church who were unable to transfer the transcripts and finish.  I feel this is so wrong.  A rapist??  Shouldn't get out to even finish a degree.

They should be able to transfer their credits.  They should be able to retain whatever they earned.  If they found a way to cheat the system, I guess they can talk to God about that when they are judged.

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

In a now locked thread, Storm Rider said:

Then because they were raped everyone is supposed to back off, not punish, ignore everything she has consciously chosen to do, look the other way because she was an idiot and was raped by another idiot.  How many young men who are idiots are given the same leeway when really bad things happen to them?  Just curious where all these mercy warriors are when it is a male that has gotten into trouble?

 

My response (written while the thread was being locked):

First of all, I sincerely believe that you should examine your understanding of justice and mercy as it works in the atonement of Christ.  We are ALL idiots, such incredible sinful idiots, yet God gives us the greatest leeway, thanks to Christ.  You, Storm Rider, are such an idiot that you should be damned to hell.  But God offers you a chance for forgiveness.  And me, MiserereNobis, am such an idiot that I should be damned to hell (and I know, because I know myself!).  But God also offers me a chance for forgiveness.  And this is true of every person who has ever existed.

Secondly, you call both the victim and the perpetrator an idiot.  Can you see how you are equating them?  She was an idiot for drinking, and he was an idiot for raping.  But... but... drinking and rape ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE in their seriousness.  As I said above, if the law of chastity is so important that breaking it is second only to murder, then where is rape on that scale?  Second to murder, and then some!  How can you even equate a woman's actions of drinking, or being in the wrong part of town, or wearing something sexy, or whatever else you think she did... how can you equate that with rape?  Rape is not idiocy.  It is the fundamental violation of a person's human and divine dignity.  It is the breaking of a commandment that, according to Mormon theology, is next to murder.

Think about this, please.  It appears to me that you have SERIOUSLY underestimated the sinfulness and destructive nature of rape.  You equate it with honor code violations.  That... is stunning.

 

Why are we all idiots, sinners, pieces of poo that deserve Hell.  Why would an Omniscient God create such creatures?

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The act of rape is far more serious than drinking beer but should BYU allow students to drink beer since there are far more serious things one can do than drink beer?   Stealing a laptop is not as serious as rape so students should be allowed to do that as well?  Of course there is one HUGE difference between drinking and rape.  In the case of drinking, that is an action that the student is held accountable for.  In the case of rape, the rape victim is not at fault and is not accountable. 

You really cannot see the problem in all of this because your world view is the Church is true and whatever the Church wants and expects is fine.

The problem is the BYU Honor code is a BARRIER to those who are assaulted because not matter what the HONOR CODE ENFORCES require the victim to meet with a bishop and/or the Honor code police to see if the victim did things that may require kicking the victim out of BYU. 

And this is essentially wrong. 

[ALarson]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Such an assumption of privacy has long been removed by twitter and facebook and e-mails. In  a trial, all of the info and personal secrets will come out. 

I am addressing how the police department should keep any statements confidential that are made to them by a rape victim. That person needs to feel safe calling the police and opening a case against their rapiist..

 

[juliann]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

 

Other requirements to attend and graduate from BYU  I suspect would include attending classes, turning in assignments, passing exams and paying fees.

Does the Victim get a pass on those requirements as well or just the Honor code.  Could the victim say "I was a victim, so I don't need to pass my exams?", Or "I was a victim so I shouldn't have to pay any fees?", Or "I was a victim so I don't need to turn in any assignments?".

 

 

Some of the comments in this thread are so disheartening. What in the world does this have to do with a violence and invasive act? Surely you don't think rape is in anyway comparable to turning in assignments. 

People, especially men,  need to stop trivializing rape. 

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why are we all idiots, sinners, pieces of poo that deserve Hell.  Why would an Omniscient God create such creatures?

Because of our potential.

[bsjkki]

I really didn't buy into the whole "rape culture" term or view but after reading all the comments and articles about this issue, I get it now.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

You really cannot see the problem in all of this because your world view is the Church is true and whatever the Church wants and expects is fine.

The problem is the BYU Honor code is a BARRIER to those who are assaulted because not matter what the HONOR CODE ENFORCES require the victim to meet with a bishop and/or the Honor code police to see if the victim did things that may require kicking the victim out of BYU. 

And this is essentially wrong. 

I do believe the Church is true but I don't see the BYU honor code and the Church being the same.  The Honor code contains provisions that are far beyond what any LDS member who is not a BYU student is expected to live by.  Here is my problem with what you are suggesting.

If Sally has a beer at 10 and gets drunk and goes home without anything bad happen to her, she has committed a violation of the honor code.

If Sally has a beer at 10 and gets drunk but later is raped, she did not commit a violation of the honor code.  The rape retroactively wipes out any decision she made at 10 P.M.  In fact lets just consider her stone sober even though she technically drunk.  Further,  if Sally decides to drive drunk after the rape and hits a car, she should not be liable for that action as well.  Basically because she was raped, she has immunity for any other action she did on the day she was raped and perhaps months afterwards as well.  Do I think Sally should get kicked out of BYU for being drunk that day. Probably not though there is a strong chance this was not the first time she went drinking. 

I guess my deal is if we are not going to hold a person responsible for their decisions because they were raped, then lets just broaden it to everyone.  Let all students drink regardless of whether they are raped or not.  Nobody is responsible for drinking alcohol and then it does not come up as a issue if someone is raped.

Edited April 17, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[Teancum]

36 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Because of our potential.

Huh?

[sjdawg]

This issue is bigger than the honor code.  Sexual offenders can be smart people who weigh the odds of being caught or turned in before committing an offense.   When a victim has to fear personal consequences such as expulsion from university then the scales are tipped in favor of the rapist.  In fact, it could even be a deliberate strategy to try and get victims to break the honor code in order to reduce the likelihood of the crime being reported.  BYU needs to find a way to fix this issue otherwise victims will also face the impossible decision to either report the rape and face expulsion or allow the rape to go unreported.   

Have you all seen this article from 2003 saying that 90% of Provo rapes go unreported?  (my apologies if it has already been posted here)   Has the situation improved since then?   Seems like we are have a similar conversation today.   

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/515039389/90-of-Provo-rapes-not-reported-to-police.html?pg=all

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by sjdawg

[sjdawg]

5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I do believe the Church is true but I don't see the BYU honor code and the Church being the same.  The Honor code contains provisions that are far beyond what any LDS member who is not a BYU student is expected to live by.  Here is my problem with what you are suggesting.

If Sally has a beer at 10 and gets drunk and goes home without anything bad happen to her, she has committed a violation of the honor code.

If Sally has a beer at 10 and gets drunk but later is raped, she did not commit a violation of the honor code.  The rape retroactively wipes out any decision she made at 10 P.M.  In fact lets just consider her stone sober even though she technically drunk.  Further,  if Sally decides to drive drunk after the rape and hits a car, she should not be liable for that action as well.  Basically because she was raped, she has immunity for any other action she did on the day she was raped and perhaps months afterwards as well.  Do I think Sally should get kicked out of BYU for being drunk that day. Probably not though there is a strong chance this was not the first time she went drinking. 

I guess my deal is if we are not going to hold a person responsible for their decisions because they were raped, then lets just broaden it to everyone.  Let all students drink regardless of whether they are raped or not.  Nobody is responsible for drinking alcohol and then it does not come up as a issue if someone is raped.

I'm thinking in your world a lot of rapists will go unpunished because the victims will not come forward with the complaint.   I'm trying to teach my daughters that if they are ever assaulted or abused they can come to me and we will deal with the abuse and not any "sins" (real or imagined)my daughters may have made in advance of the crime.  I don't care if they snuck out of the house.  I don't care if they broke curfew.  I don't care if they had a beer.  I don't care if they smoked a joint.  I don't care what they wore.  Any of those offenses would get them punished in my house on a typical day but if they are abused or raped I absolutely will not be focused on what they did.   I will be focused on supporting them, loving them, getting them the help they need, and ensuring the rapist faces the consequences of his actions.   We need to create an environment where sexual violence is reported.   

Edited April 17, 2016 by sjdawg

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Huh?

That's why He bothers with us.  Because our potential to NOT be all those horrible things, and instead become something wonderfully good, is beyond our wildest dreams.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, sjdawg said:

I'm thinking in your world a lot of rapists will go unpunished because the victims will not come forward with the complaint.   I'm trying to teach my daughters that if they are ever assaulted or abused they can come to me and we will deal with the abuse and not any "sins" (real or imagined)my daughters may have made in advance of the crime.  I don't care if they snuck out of the house.  I don't care if they broke curfew.  I don't care if they had a beer.  I don't care if they smoked a joint.  I don't care what they wore.  Any of those offenses would get them punished in my house on a typical day but if they are abused or raped I absolutely will not be focused on what they did.   I will be focused on supporting them, loving them, getting them the help they need, and ensuring the rapist faces the consequences of his actions.   We need to create an environment where sexual violence is reported.   

Though mine are all grown and left our home with their own families I still care what my children do. If they are the victims I'll support them any way I can.

[Russell C McGregor]

12 hours ago, mtomm said:

The whole point of what God would is irrelevant because BYU is not GOD but is actually a part of the fallen world with fallen people. Give me a freaking break.  Let let's rapists go free because girls break the honor code.  In what world does that make sense?  

More to the point: in what world does that bear the slightest resemblance to what anyone has been saying?

Certainly not in this one.

[mapman]

I like that BYU has a honor code. But in my opinion the Honor Code Office needs to get overhauled and get its priorities straight. One problem I've seen is that you can get away with whatever you want as long as you avoid getting reported. I'm 100% sure that there are plenty of BYU students that have premarital sex, that drink alcohol, do drugs, etc. that know that they can hide it and avoid getting reported. But apparently if you talk with the Title IX office at BYU then they can send over what they learn to the Honor Code Office, which means that rape victims are much more likely to get disciplined by the Honor Code Office than the average student, which is absolutely wrong. To me the obvious solution is to just keep the BYU police and Title IX office separate from the Honor Code Office so that victims can feel safe to report sexual assaults to them. The counseling center here at BYU has a policy of not reporting anything to the Honor Code Office that students disclose to the counselors, so why not the Title IX Office?

Edited April 17, 2016 by mapman