Justice, Mercy, Rape, and the Honor Code

[mapman]

16 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

But presuming that we don't, surely they should be able to keep their unused "rape amnesty" against the day that they do decide to breach the code in some way, like a "get out of jail free" card?

 

Do you think people would try to get raped so that they can get away with breaking the honor code? Like they are thinking, "I sure hope this ends up in me getting violated otherwise I will get thrown out of school!"  Maybe I'm misunderstanding your sarcasm.

Edited April 17, 2016 by mapman

[mapman]

19 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Everyone who knows better than the apostles what BYU's policy should be should weigh in on this question. It appears that you believe that BYU should be for two groups of people:

1. Students who obey the Honor Code; and
2. Girls who were raped while disobeying it.

As far as I know the apostles don't micromanage how the Honor Code Office does its investigations, so your implication that whatever the Honor Code Office does is the will of the Lord is irrelevant. As for the students that BYU is for, is it better for it to be for:

1. Students who obey the Honor Code; and
2. Girls Men or women who were raped while disobeying it.

Or is it better for BYU to be for:

1. Students who obey the Honor Code; and

2. Rapists who never get reported.

Surely it's not the latter.

Unfortunately the reality is that BYU has many students that don't obey the honor code who are never reported. Of all the honor code violations that should be reported, surely rape is pretty darn near the top. I just can't see how BYU is going to get rapists that prey on BYU students behind bars unless they make some way to ensure that rape victims don't fear reporting what happened.

[sjdawg]

On 4/16/2016 at 8:53 AM, carbon dioxide said:

Not sure the Lord would agree here.  I am not aware that God dismisses our behavior if someone does something far more serious to us a little later on.  Lets present a different situation. Say a BYU couple go out on a crime spree to steal a bunch of stuff from other BYU students.  They steal laptops and iPads and other things.  The guy after a few hours of joyful theft decides to force himself on the coed and he rapes her.  Should BYU look the other way from all the theft (lesser crimes and sins than rape) the coed willfully did simply because she is now a rape victim?  Justice and mercy should always work together but one does not simply overlook action A because a far worse action B occurred also during the day.

Is there a difference between committing a felony and breaking the honor code?   I'm not sure you can equate a crime spree with breaking curfew or drinking a beer 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by sjdawg

[ALarson]

7 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Now that the utterly fantastic and hysterical raving about a "rape culture" at BYU has been abandoned, we seem to be moving towards something of a consensus here, so I think it is appropriate that we start to quantify the expectations.

Everyone who knows better than the apostles what BYU's policy should be should weigh in on this question. It appears that you believe that BYU should be for two groups of people:

1. Students who obey the Honor Code; and
2. Girls who were raped while disobeying it.

Do you believe it is the wishes of the apostles that victims of rape get reported to the Honor Code Office for investigation?

Edited April 17, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

7 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Also, among the (rather small) number of women students who are raped while attending BYU, there is probably a (much smaller) subset who were raped even while fully observing the Honor Code.

Nice.  How would you know this?  

If you don't have any facts or stats to back up your statement above, why would you assume that most of the girls who are raped at BYU are not "fully observing the Honor Code"?

[Teancum]

10 hours ago, bluebell said:

That's why He bothers with us.  Because our potential to NOT be all those horrible things, and instead become something wonderfully good, is beyond our wildest dreams.

My questions was not why does God bother with us.  It was why he created such horrible beings that are only deserving of Hell.

[Meadowchik]

Several months ago I saw an impressive speech by a feminist to a feminist audience. One thing she said stuck with me, paraphrased, "Being a victim does not give one moral superiority."

I'll try to source it with a link, but I do agree.

One of the problems here that perhaps has not been mentioned, on the flipside, is that rape victims fear the results of their own Honor Code violation more than they trust in the need for justice in the criminal courts. I suppose that whenever there exists punishment or discipline there will always be those who try to avoid it, or it wouldn't be punishment or effective discipline. Obviously there tends to be an inertia in everything including wrongdoing and we resist turning against it.

Of course rape victims should feel safe in reporting. But should BYU change the Honor Code that is intended in part for safety in the first place?

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, Teancum said:

My questions was not why does God bother with us.  It was why he created such horrible beings that are only deserving of Hell.

He created us because of our potential.

[mapman]

I think that I understand where people are coming from when they say that everyone should suffer consequences of breaking the honor code even if they are a rape victim. God knows everything that everyone does and is able to deal with all his children in a way that is fair and merciful. The Honor Code Office is not God, however. I doubt that they can successfully help a victim feel loved while disciplining them for events leading up to their rape.

Moreover, they don't know everything either. All they know is what is reported to them or what they discover in an investigation. What some people seem to forget is that what they choose to investigate can have a direct effect on what gets reported to them. If they have their priorities straight they would prefer to not investigate relatively minor infractions like letting someone of the opposite sex in your room in favor of getting more serious infractions like rape reported. They can't possibly know everything so they need to choose what to investigate so that the most serious acts are always reported.

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, mapman said:

I think that I understand where people are coming from when they say that everyone should suffer consequences of breaking the honor code even if they are a rape victim. God knows everything that everyone does and is able to deal with all his children in a way that is fair and merciful. The Honor Code Office is not God, however. I doubt that they can successfully help a victim feel loved while disciplining them for events leading up to their rape.

Moreover, they don't know everything either. All they know is what is reported to them or what they discover in an investigation. What some people seem to forget is that what they choose to investigate can have a direct effect on what gets reported to them. If they have their priorities straight they would prefer to not investigate relatively minor infractions like letting someone of the opposite sex in your room in favor of getting more serious infractions like rape reported. They can't possibly know everything so they need to choose what to investigate so that the most serious acts are always reported.

Has it been verified what the actual protocol is regarding the police reporting criminal acts of BYU students? If they do, who gets contacted first? The Honor Code office? Some university liason?

[Jeanne]

10 hours ago, mapman said:

As far as I know the apostles don't micromanage how the Honor Code Office does its investigations, so your implication that whatever the Honor Code Office does is the will of the Lord is irrelevant. As for the students that BYU is for, is it better for it to be for:

1. Students who obey the Honor Code; and
2. Girls Men or women who were raped while disobeying it.

Or is it better for BYU to be for:

1. Students who obey the Honor Code; and

2. Rapists who never get reported.

Surely it's not the latter.

Unfortunately the reality is that BYU has many students that don't obey the honor code who are never reported. Of all the honor code violations that should be reported, surely rape is pretty darn near the top. I just can't see how BYU is going to get rapists that prey on BYU students behind bars unless they make some way to ensure that rape victims don't fear reporting what happened.

bingo!

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Has it been verified what the actual protocol is regarding the police reporting criminal acts of BYU students? If they do, who gets contacted first? The Honor Code office? Some university liason?

From what I understand, it is the Title IX Office that shares the information with the Honor Code Office.  The police refer victims to the Title IX Office for help or support, I believe.  It's up to the victim as to whether they do this or not (go to Title IX).

(Someone please correct me or clarify if that's not accurate.)

.

Edited April 17, 2016 by ALarson

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

Nice.  How would you know this?  

If you don't have any facts or stats to back up your statement above, why would you assume that most of the girls who are raped at BYU are not "fully observing the Honor Code"?

It is unfortunate for any girl to be raped under any conditions...but we would probably be surprised at the girls who observe the Honor Code..may have also been raped more than we think.  It is fear..fear in any woman..it is the association of guilt.  And God forbid that what was once clean..is now defiled..regardless of rape.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

 

Of course rape victims should feel safe in reporting. But should BYU change the Honor Code that is intended in part for safety in the first place?

There is no need to change the HC, one can remove much of the fear of reporting by simply changing the application of it...require counseling or probation, but in some way make sure that it is publicized that the HC office will work with victims in helping them meet the standards or help them in finding a situation they prefer.

[mapman]

The experiences of several victims and the statement of the Title IX lady at the rape awareness event indicate that the Title IX Office reports to the Honor Code Office at least some of the time.

As far as I know the only other way the Honor Code Office finds out about events is if another student or faculty member files a report.

The Provo city police said they would never report anything to the Honor Code Office. I imagine it's the same with the BYU police. Maybe they would tell them if a student is convicted of a crime? I don't know. They do send victims of sexual assault to the Title IX Office who then might send the case over to the Honor Code Office.

[MiserereNobis]

39 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Has it been verified what the actual protocol is regarding the police reporting criminal acts of BYU students? If they do, who gets contacted first? The Honor Code office? Some university liason?

While this doesn't answer your question generally, here is a current and specific situation:

Madi Barney broke some unspecified honor code rule.  She was then raped.  She reported her rape to the Provo police, who investigated.  The perpetrator said it was consensual.  However, he called her and was recorded to admitting it was rape, which gave enough evidence for a charge, arrest, and upcoming trial.  The accused has a friend who works for the sheriff.  The accused gave a copy of the criminal case to his friend who then took it to the honor code office.  The honor code office then summoned the victim for an honor code investigation.  The perpetrator and the friend were initially charged with retaliation against a witness for giving the case to the honor code office.  That charge was subsequently dropped (with prejudice, meaning it could be refiled), most likely due to the statement by the friend that he gave the case to the honor code office not to get the victim in trouble, but because of information it contained about BYU male athletes breaking the honor code.  The prosecutor in the case has asked the honor code office to stop their investigation because it could affect his criminal prosecution.  They have refused to stop.  The prosecutor has told the victim to not cooperate with the honor code office investigation so that the criminal investigation is not compromised.  Because of her lack of cooperation (on the advice of the prosecutor in the criminal rape case!) she has been put on academic suspension.  She has asked the honor code office to hold off on their investigation until the criminal trial is over and has said that she will meet with them at that point.  They have refused, saying that the investigation into her is their top priority. 

This is such a blatant case of messed up priorities.  It is mind boggling that the honor code office doesn't really care what the prosecutor in the criminal case is saying about their actions.  Apparently, based on their actions, they believe that investigating an honor code violation is more important than the criminal prosecution of a rapist.

At a recent BYU rape awareness conference, the victim asked the title ix office director (and associate dean of students) about their policy of giving sexual assault information to the honor code office.  The director acknowledged that the sharing of such information can have a "chilling effect" on the reporting of sexual assault, but also said that the office does not apologize.

Yet another example of messed up priorities.

Here are the news reports of everything I just said:

"Prosecutor says rape case is threatened by BYU Honor Code investigation" (Salt Lake Tribune)

"Controversy swirls over sexual assault investigation and BYU Honor Code" (Deseret News)

"Utah County Sheriff's deputy denies allegations in BYU rape case" (KUTV)

If you do a news search on "byu rape honor code" you'll find plenty of other articles on this case.

Edited April 17, 2016 by MiserereNobis

[Meadowchik]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is no need to change the HC, one can remove much of the fear of reporting by simply changing the application of it...require counseling or probation, but in some way make sure that it is publicized that the HC office will work with victims in helping them meet the standards or help them in finding a situation they prefer.

I agree.

[ALarson]

38 minutes ago, mapman said:

The experiences of several victims and the statement of the Title IX lady at the rape awareness event indicate that the Title IX Office reports to the Honor Code Office at least some of the time.

As far as I know the only other way the Honor Code Office finds out about events is if another student or faculty member files a report.

The Provo city police said they would never report anything to the Honor Code Office. I imagine it's the same with the BYU police. Maybe they would tell them if a student is convicted of a crime? I don't know. They do send victims of sexual assault to the Title IX Office who then might send the case over to the Honor Code Office.

I wonder if the police department informs the victim that the Title IX Office may share information with the Honor Code Office?  That step seems like it could alleviate some of the confusion and alarm when information is shared. 

Also, I think I remember reading (on one of the 3 threads here) that the Title IX Office has an agreement with the BYU Honor Code Office to report any honor code violations and that they are required to do this.  Is that correct?

.

Edited April 17, 2016 by ALarson

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

One of the problems here that perhaps has not been mentioned, on the flipside, is that rape victims fear the results of their own Honor Code violation more than they trust in the need for justice in the criminal courts.

What it appears you are saying is that victims are selfish because they would rather protect themselves against honor code violation punishments than accept those punishments in order to see justice done against their rapists.

The MAJOR factor that you are leaving out here is that a victim has just been brutally traumatized physically, spiritually, emotionally, and psychologically.  They are not sitting down and making a pro-/con- list that is dispassionate and divorced from their experience.  They have all sorts of emotions and traumas flooding their minds, and the most common tend to be feelings of guilt, self-doubt, and self-hate.  It is not selfish or cowardly for a victim to prioritize self-protection in a situation where the victim just experienced a gross violation of his or her self.  To put it succinctly, they are often not thinking clearly about what just happened to them and this is why they need love and support and counseling, and everything else that can help them.

Here are two examples given by the lead rape investigator for the BYU police department (from an article at Deseret News):

Quote

Lemmon [the rape investigator] said most Provo residents are religious and have a tendency to stigmatize discussion of sexual assault and sometimes to demonize the survivor.

He said he developed this opinion about 25 years ago when he moved to Provo and investigated the case of a first-semester freshman — the most common profile of a BYU rape victim — who was abducted while walking home from the campus library. The man took her inside his car and drove to Kiwanis park where he raped and sodomized her and threw her out of the car. It was nearly two years before the woman was emotionally stable enough to talk to Lemmon about the rape. "She said something that blew me away. She said, 'I should have died before I let him do that to me,' " Lemmon said. "I was troubled that she had to believe that."

Lemmon read from a letter written by a BYU rape victim who shared a similar belief.

"I'm a perversion to the good saints of my church," wrote the victim, who said she wished she were dead. Tragic thoughts like these are common among rape victims in Provo, Lemmon said.

Can you see how these victims are not thinking clearly? 

A victim's misplaced guilt and self-loathing is often so strong that there is no need to punish them further for some infraction of the honor code.

Edited April 17, 2016 by MiserereNobis

[Meadowchik]

15 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

While this doesn't answer your question generally, here is a current and specific situation:

Madi Barney broke some unspecified honor code rule.  She was then raped.  She reported her rape to the Provo police, who investigated.  The perpetrator said it was consensual.  However, he called her and was recorded to admitting it was rape, which gave enough evidence for a charge, arrest, and upcoming trial.  The accused has a friend who works for the sheriff.  The accused gave a copy of the criminal case to his friend who then took it to the honor code office.  The honor code office then summoned the victim for an honor code investigation.  The perpetrator and the friend were initially charged with retaliation against a witness for giving the case to the honor code office.  That charge was subsequently dropped (with prejudice, meaning it could be refiled), most likely due to the statement by the friend that he gave the case to the honor code office not to get the victim in trouble, but because of information it contained about BYU male athletes breaking the honor code.  The prosecutor in the case has asked the honor code office to stop their investigation because it could affect his criminal prosecution.  They have refused to stop.  The prosecutor has told the victim to not cooperate with the honor code office investigation so that the criminal investigation is not compromised.  Because of her lack of cooperation (on the advice of the prosecutor in the criminal rape case!) she has been put on academic suspension.  She has asked the honor code office to hold off on their investigation until the criminal trial is over and has said that she will meet with them at that point.  They have refused, saying that the investigation into her is their top priority. 

This is such a blatant case of messed up priorities.  It is mind boggling that the honor code office doesn't really care what the prosecutor in the criminal case is saying about their actions.  Apparently, based on their actions, they believe that investigating an honor code violation is more important than the criminal prosecution of a rapist.

At a recent BYU rape awareness conference, the victim asked the title ix office director (and associate dean of students) about their policy of giving sexual assault information to the honor code office.  The director acknowledged that the sharing of such information can have a "chilling effect" on the reporting of sexual assault, but also said that the office does not apologize.

Yet another example of messed up priorities.

Here are the news reports of everything I just said:

"Prosecutor says rape case is threatened by BYU Honor Code investigation" (Salt Lake Tribune)

"Controversy swirls over sexual assault investigation and BYU Honor Code" (Deseret News)

"Utah County Sheriff's deputy denies allegations in BYU rape case" (KUTV)

If you do a news search on "byu rape honor code" you'll find plenty of other articles on this case.

So this case has nothing to do with police going to the HC Office. But it looks like a big mess.

I know from experience that the HC Office can "go after" people with only implication of guilt without proof. Then the accused is asked to prove innocence. My husband was selling legal copies of movies at BYU when we were students. One day we got a call from someone asking if we had a 2nd of the same movie. Since he had already bought a bunch en masse to resell, we said "of course." Presumably this was interpreted as us copying movies and selling them, because the HC Office contacted and asked him for explanations.  My husband explained and thereafter returned a couple times to advise the office in how to spot illegal movies.

It is my understanding that BYU has to take copyright infringement very seriously, as such organisations may be found liable for infringements occuring on campus and can be subject to fines in the thousands for each violation.

Not to trivialize rape to compare it to bootlegged movies, that experience of ours taught me yet once again how incredibly complicated it is to run BYU and any place like it: as a whole, the school wears a thousand hats for thousands of young adults, each with different needs and backgrounds.

I wonder why HC persists in the investigation you cited while a prosecution is underway. Isn't it possible that they also mean they are focused on the rape accusations in doing so?

[MiserereNobis]

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I wonder why HC persists in the investigation you cited while a prosecution is underway. Isn't it possible that they also mean they are focused on the rape accusations in doing so?

It could be... but why academically suspend the victim then?  (also, the accused is not a BYU student).

[Calm]

Has anything more been said about the BYU male athletes that the friend who turned in the report claims were implicated?  

[mapman]

34 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I wonder if the police department informs the victim that the Title IX Office may share information with the Honor Code Office?  That step seems like it could alleviate some of the confusion and alarm when information is shared. 

Also, I think I remember reading (on one of the 3 threads here) that the Title IX Office has an agreement with the BYU Honor Code Office to report any honor code violations and that they are required to do this.  Is that correct?

.

That sounds familiar, but I don't remember where I would have read it.

[Meadowchik]

12 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

What it appears you are saying is that victims are selfish because they would rather protect themselves against honor code violation punishments than accept those punishments in order to see justice done against their rapists.

The MAJOR factor that you are leaving out here is that a victim has just been brutally traumatized physically, spiritually, emotionally, and psychologically.  They are not sitting down and making a pro-/con- list that is dispassionate and divorced from their experience.  They have all sorts of emotions and traumas flooding their minds, and the most common tend to be feelings of guilt, self-doubt, and self-hate.  It is not selfish or cowardly for a victim to prioritize self-protection in a situation where the victim just experienced a gross violation of his or her self.  To put it succinctly, they are often not thinking clearly about what just happened to them and this is why they need love and support and counseling, and everything else that can help them.

Here are two examples given by the lead rape investigator for the BYU police department (from an article at Deseret News):

Can you see how these victims are not thinking clearly? 

A victim's misplaced guilt and self-loathing is often so strong that there is no need to punish them further for some infraction of the honor code.

I said what I said, not intending more.

Surely, trauma can be a valid explanation for what I described. I wish that there were an emphasis like Calm said on essentially walking with those on the wrong side of the rules as helpers.

[Meadowchik]

26 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It could be... but why academically suspend the victim then?  (also, the accused is not a BYU student).

Good question. Yet I feel conflicted with this story and can extrapolate for Madi and tge HCO the possibility of reasons we cannot see as outside parties.