Justice, Mercy, Rape, and the Honor Code

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It is private property.  Do you believe if police were called to your house for a party being disruptive, but not illegal, they should not be able to tell you,the owner, anything about it?

I am saying that if it is off campus.  If something happens on campus, BYU needs/has to know what the deal is. 

On a side note, I haven't had a party for so long I wonder what that's like.

The city is welcomed and encouraged to check out anything untoward on my property..I would want to know.  If it involves any criminal activity..I will prosecute myself..and..if there is a BYU student involved..I want police to investigate.  But I would not ask them or encourage them to contact BYU.  None of their business.

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

I use constructs like "Victim[TM]" to show that I reject the implicit claim that as soon as anything bad (or one of a selected list of somethings bad) happens to someone, they join a special category of people who must be wrapped in cotton wool, whose every assertion must be believed without question, and who are exempt from any expectation that they function like competent adults.

There's no such thing as "rape culture." But in my observation, there is such a thing as "Victim culture."

And I reject it.

If anyone is willing to abandon the assumptions of "Victim culture" and discuss this issue on that basis, I'll be interested in what they have to say.

 

I do hope you never have to eat your words. 

[Russell C McGregor]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am saying that if it is off campus.  If something happens on campus, BYU needs/has to know what the deal is. 

On a side note, I haven't had a party for so long I wonder what that's like.

The city is welcomed and encouraged to check out anything untoward on my property..I would want to know.  If it involves any criminal activity..I will prosecute myself..and..if there is a BYU student involved..I want police to investigate.  But I would not ask them or encourage them to contact BYU.  None of their business.

Actually Jeanne, when a student enrols at BYU and signs the Honor Code, they are agreeing that what they do off campus is BYU's business.

 

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Actually Jeanne, when a student enrols at BYU and signs the Honor Code, they are agreeing that what they do off campus is BYU's business.

 

Then they shouldn't sign. 

[Russell C McGregor]

20 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Then they shouldn't sign. 

Then they shouldn't enrol.

Because there will be plenty of candidates who are willing to sign.

And a student who doesn't want to obey the Honor Code is taking up a place that would be better offered to someone who does.

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Russell C McGregor

[Calm]

Jeanne, unless my eyes are completely betraying me, you wrote "on campus", not "off campus".  If I am right, you might want to edit that to avoid others being confused like I was.  If I am wrong, that just confirms I really need to make time for an eye appt. and finally fork out the big bucks for reading glasses (the cheap versions won't work for me apparently).

[Russell C McGregor]

10 hours ago, ALarson said:

Nice.  How would you know this?  

If you don't have any facts or stats to back up your statement above, why would you assume that most of the girls who are raped at BYU are not "fully observing the Honor Code"?

For two reasons:

1. All the angst about the Honor Code office becoming involved when sexual assaults are reported; and
2. The fact that certain provisions of the Honor Code would tend to help to keep people safe, to the extent that they are obeying them.

Also, in the absence of reliable numbers, I'm not inclined to believe that there are a lot of rapes at BYU at the worst of times.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

7 hours ago, Jeanne said:

It is unfortunate for any girl to be raped under any conditions...but we would probably be surprised at the girls who observe the Honor Code..may have also been raped more than we think.

That depends on who "we" are. I suspect that there are a lot fewer rapes at BYU, among all categories of victims, than are assumed by those who buy into the discredited "rape epidemic" panic.

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Then they shouldn't sign. 

Very true, they shouldn't. No one should voluntarily agree to conditions in exchange for services if they don't intend to keep the conditions but do intend to use the services. It's dishonest.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Russell C McGregor said:

If you think that's witty, you're half right.

What He actually said was "Go thy way and sin no more." By the standards of the feminists here, He was cruelly abusing and victimizing her by daring to suggest that she had done anything wrong, and thus perpetuating a "rape culture."

 

No one had set such a standard here.  

[Teancum]

Mercy overpowers Justice at least according to LDS doctrine.

 

To damn bad so many here as well as the LDS Church has forgotten that.

 

 

[Calm]

Russell, can't quote you, but in response to the claim that most women who are raped at BYU are not fully observing the Honor Code, there was the comment from the man who has investigated rapes at BYU for the last 25 years that the most common profile of a BYU rape victim is a "first semester freshman" and the example he was giving that description in implies no HC violation involved:

"He said he developed this opinion about 25 years ago when he moved to Provo and investigated the case of a first-semester freshman — the most common profile of a BYU rape victim — who was abducted while walking home from the campus library. The man took her inside his car and drove to Kiwanis park where he raped and sodomized her and threw her out of the car."

Now it is possible that these first semester freshmen are going wild away from home and that the example he gave was atypical, but I think his statement is such that one should be withholding any conclusions that BYU rape victims are most often also in violation of some HC rule.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/515039389/90-of-Provo-rapes-not-reported-to-police.html?pg=all

Edited April 18, 2016 by Calm

[strappinglad]

What an enrolled student does whether on campus or off or in California can eventually become BYU's business. Heavens, recent national profile cases have verified that what a person does on their own time and find  posted on face-book , becomes their companies business and they can end up disciplined or fired because of it. What happens in Vegas no longer stays in Vegas, and yes that includes BYU students who go there for quicky marriages etc.

  The more the " facts " come out on this particular case, the more it looks like one of those cases that are very hard to prosecute because of contradictory evidence and shaky testimony. Can someone tell me why the defendant is now possibly " incompetent "? This can of worms is getting bigger.

Edited April 18, 2016 by strappinglad

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

 

  The more the " facts " come out on this particular case, the more it looks like one of those cases that are very hard to prosecute because of contradictory evidence and shaky testimony. 

Except that apparently the man accused of raping her confirmed she had screamed "no" at him, etc. when talking to her by phone, which was recorded.

And he lied about his age (iirc he is 36, not 26) and about the fact he was/is married and his name.

There is no evidence presented that I have seen that the woman has consistently lied.

"Seidu raped Barney as she told him no, crying and screaming, police wrote — details Seidu allegedly confirmed in a telephone call Barney and police staged after she filed a police report."

Edited April 18, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

Link for above quote:

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3783429-155/boss-of-prosecutor-who-criticized-byu

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Russell, can't quote you, but in response to the claim that most women who are raped at BYU are not fully observing the Honor Code, there was the comment from the man who has investigated rapes at BYU for the last 25 years that the most common profile of a BYU rape victim is a "first semester freshman" and the example he was giving that description in implies no HC violation involved:

"He said he developed this opinion about 25 years ago when he moved to Provo and investigated the case of a first-semester freshman — the most common profile of a BYU rape victim — who was abducted while walking home from the campus library. The man took her inside his car and drove to Kiwanis park where he raped and sodomized her and threw her out of the car."

Now it is possible that these first semester freshmen are going wild away from home and that the example he gave was atypical, but I think his statement is such that one should be withholding any conclusions that BYU rape victims are most often also in violation of some HC rule.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/515039389/90-of-Provo-rapes-not-reported-to-police.html?pg=all

Quote

"More than 90 percent of rapes in the city go unreported, according to the lead rape investigator for the BYU Police Department. BYU officer Arnie Lemmon said only 43 rapes were reported last year in Provo, leaving the actual number of rapes estimated at more than 400 during 2002." 

 

How does Officer Lemmon arrive at this conclusion? It is not explained in the article.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

Yeah, that was a problem with the article.

[JulieM]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

"More than 90 percent of rapes in the city go unreported, according to the lead rape investigator for the BYU Police Department.

BYU officer Arnie Lemmon said only 43 rapes were reported last year in Provo, leaving the actual number of rapes estimated at more than 400 during 2002." 

How sad.  How does that compare to other cities across the nation, do you know?

Edited April 18, 2016 by JulieM

[Stargazer]

On 4/16/2016 at 1:47 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Deo gratias (thank God!) for Divine mercy, which, thanks to Christ, is the current paradigm.  Bringing up God's justice as being black and white totally disregards Jesus Christ.

Without Jesus Christ, God's justice IS black and white.  We don't disagree on this, obviously.

Quote

The push is that the Honor Code Office grants amnesty to rape victims for any honor code infractions that occurred immediately prior to or during the rape.  So, the obvious analogy is when prosecutors offer immunity to people to testify against a greater crime.  Rape is the greater crime, so shouldn't the Honor Code Office offer amnesty to those who testify against it?  The victims should have amnesty for an infraction of the honor code in order to out a rapist in the community.

The honor code is not a law.  The courts cannot suspend compliance on a private contract that the person entered into.  The rape and the honor code violation have nothing to do with each other in the eyes of the law.  

Maybe you're right about the amnesty, but since the rapist is already known and under indictment (if that is the case), there is no need for an amnesty in this case.  

Quote

So if I steal but I don't judge others for stealing then I am free of God's judgement?  So if I say no action is wrong then I won't be judged at all?

This sounds like wild self-justification to me.  Whatever I think is right, as long as I am consistent (not a hypocrite).

However did you get THAT out of what I wrote?  I only re-stated Christ's principle that one will be judged according to one's own judgments.  Failing to judge doesn't absolve anyone.

Quote

Wow.  Do you see how none of these examples apply to a person being raped?  Every single one (every single one!!) has the negative consequence firmly linked to the actions of the person receiving the negative consequence.  You have just unequivocally showed that you believe a rape victim is responsible for his or her rape.

Seriously, go through each example and identify who the rape victim would be in it.  It's always the person who screwed up and did something bad.

No, I don't see how none of these examples apply.  And I did not unequivocally show that I believe a rape victim is responsible for his or her rape.  You keep conflating responsibility with guilt.  One can be both responsible and guilty, and they are not equivalent. One can be responsible and not be guilty.

It's hopeless, MN.  I keep saying one thing and you hear something else.  One more try: If I walk into a dark alley with $100 bills glued to every square inch of my body, my likelihood of being robbed is greater than if I stayed at home.  I am responsible for placing myself in greater jeopardy by walking down that dark alley.  But I am not guilty of robbery if someone robs me.  The person who robbed me is not less a robber if he robs me.  

She shouldn't have been where she was, and shouldn't have been doing what she did.  You disagree?  Did her behavior enhance her chances of something negative happening to her?  Heck, it doesn't even need to be rape.  He could have simply stolen the money in her purse, or taken her car keys and run off with her car.  If he had robbed her while she was unconscious, and the honor code people found out she had been drinking, would you then say that the HC violation needed to ignored, or would you have been OK with the HC office acting?

I get the impression that, for you, it's all about the rape.  And that is all you can see.

 

Quote

I wonder if some of the Romans ever said about the early Christian matyrs: "well, they need to just take responsibility for their choice to break the law and not burn incense to Caeser.  If they would have just followed the rules, we wouldn't have to have thrown them to the lions for sport.  It's just common sense, after all.  We're not to blame.  Nero, why don't you pull out that fiddle and play us a tune, eh?"

Now who is bringing up analogies that don't pertain to the situation?  

Quote

Analogies more often than not grow quite tiresome in a discussion of this type.

 

You don't seem to understand what an analogy is, MN.

I'll leave it at that.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Stargazer

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

How sad.  How does that compare to other cities across the nation, do you know?

I saw this website with some statistics, if true and Arnie Lemmon is correct, BYU is off the charts in it's rapes, which seem really high.  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/campus-crime-statistics-undercount-sexual-assaults

Then this article speaking of rape culture.  http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/03/how-can-rape-be-a-culture

[Calm]

As far as I can tell, the 90% unreported from that article was considered typical nationwide (studies generally found 10-20% of rapes were reported).  Since 43 were reported in Provo, it is then assumed that there were around 400 rapes in total.  Iirc, .i looked before for a specific study he based this on and couldn't find anything, but did find discussion about how the 90% was used in various articles, etc.

This may or may not be accurate for Rovo.  There could be more or less tendency to report based on local culture.

I believe there was discussion about stats reported from the recent rape awareness conference done by a BYU prof, though I may be confusing conversations.  i will try and find that.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I saw this website with some statistics, if true and Arnie Lemmon is correct, BYU is off the charts in it's rapes, which seem really high.  

Rapes in Provo are not necessarily BYU rapes.  Those stats were for on campus rapes, so you can't use the 43 reported rapes in Provo as the stat for BYU.  There are other people there besides students.  Iirc, didn't he say there were 4 reported rapes on campus that year (2003).  If so, BYU was on the low end.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Mercy overpowers Justice at least according to LDS doctrine. To damn bad so many here as well as the LDS Church has forgotten that.

Well, that's certainly not an accurate description of what LDS doctrine is. Here it is straight from the horse's mouth....that would be Alma. The only way mercy can satisfy justice is if repentance is attached. So, in the story of this young lady, where does the repentance for violating the Honor Code she signed to get admission to the University happen? Is repentance waived because something bad allegedly happened to her? If that is the case, it would seem mercy robs justice. "Mercy claims the penitent."

Quote

 15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also. 

16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.

17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

 18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.

 19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?

 20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.

 21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

 23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

 24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

 25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

I have read the various accounts of this controversy, and I have to conclude that we don't know anywhere near the whole story.  There is a lot of hyperventilating going on. There certainly are a lot of contradictions, retractions, and ambiguities in the various accounts. Much of what is know is simply reporting what this or that person said. 

Plus, we have a clear statement from a BYU official that no rape victim would be referred to the Honor Code Office:

Quote

"A victim of a sexual assault will never be referred to the Honor Code office for being a victim of sexual assault. A report of sexual assault would be referred to the BYU Title IX office — not to the Honor Code office. A Title IX investigation at BYU is separate from the Honor Code process. The purpose of the Title IX investigation is to investigate the sexual assault, not other Honor Code violations."

There is also a lot of unfounded religious stereotyping going on. The Honor Code is being made to appear to be some sort of out-of-date repressive Puritanical (in the pejorative sense) straight jacket. Insinuations about the Honor Code and Title IX offices and workers make them appear to be sneering High Inquisitionors. Being a fan of Bernardo Gui, I know a little bit about Inquisitions, and this is not an Inquisition. No one in the Honor Code office has even hinted that the victim would be expelled from school. In fact, the code itself specifies a variety of remedies for violations from counseling to expulsion. 

Finally, the alleged rape and the alleged Honor Code violations are separate issues. If violations of the Honor Code should not assign responsibility for the rape to the victim, then the rape should not be part of the consideration for violations of the Honor Code.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

As far as I can tell, the 90% unreported from that article was considered typical nationwide (studies generally found 10-20% of rapes were reported).  Since 43 were reported in Provo, it is then assumed that there were around 400 rapes in total.  Iirc, .i looked before for a specific study he based this on and couldn't find anything, but did find discussion about how the 90% was used in various articles, etc.

This may or may not be accurate for Rovo.  There could be more or less tendency to report based on local culture.

I believe there was discussion about stats reported from the recent rape awareness conference done by a BYU prof, though I may be confusing conversations.  i will try and find that.

Oh, then that makes more sense.    

[Stargazer]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I saw this website with some statistics, if true and Arnie Lemmon is correct, BYU is off the charts in it's rapes, which seem really high.  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/campus-crime-statistics-undercount-sexual-assaults

Then this article speaking of rape culture.  http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/03/how-can-rape-be-a-culture

Mother Jones magazine, is hardly a source of unbiased reportage.

It's very easy to say BYU is off the charts for rape, and easy to inflate numbers based on other invented figures for which there is no justification. 

The fact that the so-called "rape culture" is now all the rage gives me no confidence at all that 1 in 5 woman gets raped on college campuses.

Especially when there are some social justice warriors who consider that when a man looks at a woman in that certain way, that he has committed some kind of sexual assault.