The Cruelty of False Hope

[Sanpitch]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I appreciate your qualification of that statement (in your second sentence).  That's a rather important distinction.  For my part, to the extent I do what I do in an effort to accomplish God's purposes for me and for others (while i often fall short), I don't do it because, in the immortal words of B.J. Hunnicutt of M*A*S*H fame, "God will send me to hell without an electric fan," or because I believe God is like Santa Claus, giving us "presents" when we're good and "lumps of coal" when we're not.  Rather, I do it because it's the right thing to do, because it makes me (and hopefully others) happy, and because it fills my soul (and hopefully theirs).

I understand where you're coming from.   My point that I really wanted to emphasize was rather opposite to the OP.  It irritates me that for hundreds of years gullible people have been threatened with burning in Hell for eternity it they didn't do as they were told.  People long ago were uneducated and gullible, too many believed what they were taught.  My wife, years ago, after a small incident was asked, "aren't you afraid of burning in Hell?"  Well, she wasn't, apparently people still believe that way.
 

[Glenn101]

2 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I understand where you're coming from.   My point that I really wanted to emphasize was rather opposite to the OP.  It irritates me that for hundreds of years gullible people have been threatened with burning in Hell for eternity it they didn't do as they were told.  People long ago were uneducated and gullible, too many believed what they were taught.  My wife, years ago, after a small incident was asked, "aren't you afraid of burning in Hell?"  Well, she wasn't, apparently people still believe that way.
 

There are two points here. Christianity, mainstream, seems to teach burning in hell for eternity, however, LDS Doctrine does not teach that. Only the unrepentant will actually "burn in hell." And they will burn until they have paid the full price, if I understand the following scripture correctly:

Matthew 5:
 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

However, LDS Doctrine teaches that the price will eventually be paid. How long that will be I have no idea. But the Doctrine and Covenants gives us a better perspective.

Doctrine and Covenants 19: 
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
 7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
 8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
 9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
 10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
 11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
 12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

Those verses would probably sound heretical to a mainstream Christian. But the LDS Doctrine is that of a kinder, more gentle God than is portrayed by mainstream Christianity.

However, there is still negative consequences for people who die in their sins. The point of my OP is the cruelty that comes from engendering a false hope in people. I gave two examples. One of strictly temporal design where people promise miracle medical cures using anecdotal cases that are not backed up by medical science. Miracle, painless, weight loos pills, a miracle cure for cancer (do you remember Steve McQueen?)

And, on the religious side, teaching or espousing things that are not taught, are not part of LDS Doctrine. The example I used was a progression between Kingdoms, which is not taught, and is not part of LDS theology, yet there are some which espouse it pretty fervently, as is the case with cinepro. Yet, it is a pernicious doctrine, one which would allow a person to pretty much live any life he or she should choose on the earth, take their licks in hell, then still eventually receive their exaltation. Nephi warns against such a doctrine.

2 Nephi 28:8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

That is just one example.

But the Gospel is not one of fear. It is a gospel of hope. However, God is fair and just in that He warns us of the negative consequences for not repenting of sins.

If there is wet paint on a park bench, I would like to know before I sit on it and ruin a set of clothes.

Glenn

[CA Steve]

16 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

But the Gospel is not one of fear. It is a gospel of hope. However, God is fair and just in that He warns us of the negative consequences for not repenting of sins.

If there is wet paint on a park bench, I would like to know before I sit on it and ruin a set of clothes.

Glenn

If one believes that there is no progression between kingdoms then I would call that fear based. The difference between burning in Hell for eternity and being condemned to a lessor kingdom for eternity does not mean the latter isn't based on fear. Whether I threaten you with eternal fire and brimstone or eternal separation from your loved ones, it is still based on fear. Whether or not I promise you eternal life with your family or some other version, it is still based on hope.

 

Interesting discussion Glen.

Edited March 8, 2016 by CA Steve

[Scott Lloyd]

Some would have the leaders of the Church inflict the cruelty of false hope on others in the form of changing the laws and commandments of God to declare the sin of homosexual behavior to be not a sin and to declare same-sex "marriage" to be marriage as the Lord Himself has prescribed it when, in fact, He has done no such thing. Those who accuse the Church and its leaders of cruelty in refusing to back down on this are, in fact, calling good evil and evil good.

 

[Sleeper Cell]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

If one believes that there is no progression between kingdoms then I would call that fear based. The difference between burning in Hell for eternity and being condemned to a lessor kingdom for eternity does not mean the latter isn't based on fear. Whether I threaten you with eternal fire and brimstone or eternal separation from your loved ones, it is still based on fear. Whether or not I promise you eternal life with your family or some other version, it is still based on hope.

But aren’t those who attain eternal life just as much separated from a loved one who is “condemned’ to a lesser kingdom as their loved one is from them?   

[CA Steve]

16 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said:

But aren’t those who attain eternal life just as much separated from a loved one who is “condemned’ to a lesser kingdom as their loved one is from them?   

Yes, but that would apply whether or not that loved one is burning in Hell or just condemned forever to a lower kingdom.

 

 

[Glenn101]

7 hours ago, CA Steve said:

If one believes that there is no progression between kingdoms then I would call that fear based. The difference between burning in Hell for eternity and being condemned to a lessor kingdom for eternity does not mean the latter isn't based on fear. Whether I threaten you with eternal fire and brimstone or eternal separation from your loved ones, it is still based on fear. Whether or not I promise you eternal life with your family or some other version, it is still based on hope.

 

Interesting discussion Glen.

If someone put up a sign that says wet paint on a park bench, and I sit upon it anyway, that is not fear based. If someone tells me that a bridge is about to fall in, so don't drive over it, that is not fear based. The consequences for such are pretty much understood. Since we don't have the information given to us by science or personal experiences of our own or of other mortals, God must of necessity warn us that if we set the woods on fire with us in it, we are going to get burned, and badly.

If God tells us that he has a special treat for those who keep the commandments, that is not fear based. It is rewards based. (And faith based, as we really do not know what it will be like or how good that treat will be.)

Of course, one can always look at anything with a glass half empty frame of mind.

Glenn

[rodheadlee]

On 3/7/2016 at 9:03 AM, ALarson said:

And, what if they're not?

OK, what do you think about it?

[cinepro]

On 3/8/2016 at 0:23 AM, Glenn101 said:

I did not know that you had been called as a prophet, seer, and revelator.  I disagree with you that it is doctrinally sound. Your reasoning is specious at best.

If you remember Paul's definition of faith as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." A person in the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms cannot obtain faith at that point. They will already know that Jesus is the Christ. They will have already met Him by that time. (2 Nephi 9:15)  And, at that time, they will no longer even be able to repent. They died in their sins. Christ's atonement does not redeem such. (Mosiah 15:26)

And once they die in their sins, having wasted Christ's atonement, they will have to suffer for their own sins, (D&C 19:16-18) They cannot be saved. (Alma 5:21)

And just a few more scriptures:

Doctrine and Covenants, Section 29:

 43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

 44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;

Yes, Christ's work and glory was to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The first part is unconditional. i.e. everyone that ever lived will obtain immortality through the resurrection. But the second part is conditional upon faith, repentance, baptism, etc. I have already explained why those in the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms cannot have faith, nor repent.

As in my first post to preach such a progression would give a person hope that he or she can do live just about anyway they wish here upon this earth, die, get their "few stripes", and eventually make it to the Celestial Kingdom. I do not think that any of the prophets of old, Old testament, Book of Mormon, New Testament, or restoration would agree with you interpretation of what "immortality and eternal life" means.

And then, CA Steve mentions those minions of Satan and outer darkness.

Glenn

I'm not "reasoning" anything.  I'm simply taking the scriptures at their word.

Your references (Mosiah 15:26, D&C 29) explicitly refer to people who will not repent.  I just don't see what purpose it serves for someone in the Telestial Kingdom to see the potential for Celestial Exaltation, desire it, and then humbly go to God and say "I am willing to repent and make and keep the covenants necessary in order to progress towards exaltation"  and then have God respond "Sorry, but you missed the window of opportunity on this."

I also don't believe your argument about faith being necessary to such a degree that someone in the Telestial Kingdom couldn't have it (their "knowledge" having negating it).  The scriptures have at least two examples of people who were given knowledge of God and his plan and were still able to repent (Paul, Alma the Younger).  There isn't some required level of ignorance necessary for exaltation.  And perhaps there is some degree of faith that would be necessary even for those in the Telestial Kingdom to believe.

As for the potential for people to intentionally sin if they had the knowledge that there was progression between kingdoms, I would simply ask how you would act differently if President Monson stood up in Conference next month and taught that it was revealed to him that there would be progression between the kingdoms.  How would you live your life differently? 

If you honestly believe that you would, in fact, change your behavior based on this knowledge, then that's the most powerful argument you can make and there is nothing I can do to rebut it, and I'll concede the point.  But if you wouldn't change your behavior and would (presumably) continue to strive to make and keep your covenants, then I don't accept your argument.

Edited March 12, 2016 by cinepro

[cinepro]

On 3/7/2016 at 5:11 AM, Glenn101 said:

In my wanderings around cyberspace I came upon an article or two about the cruelty of false hope that is and has been engendered by the advertisements of the homeopathic industry where miracle cures were/are promoted by anecdotal evidence, yet, for the vast majority of participants, the results are, shall we say, much less than satisfactory. That got me thinking about the subject a bit.

 

And regarding your first point, I would note that we are lucky in that there are no homeopaths in the LDS Church. 

 

Just people with homeopathic tendencies.

Edited March 12, 2016 by cinepro

[Duncan]

On the Face to face Elder Holland event one of the questions on the online question page was a young woman asked what if your Patriarchal Blessing says one thing and you're working to do everything for that to happen but it doesn't happen, what then? Some would say it's a carrot on a stick  or false hope or something

[Atheist Mormon]

"Now, that would be true if the atheist's non-belief is actually the truth".

But that is the only "truth" we all know of. Atheists base their "truth" on observable universe, scientific experiments that is falsifiable, we don't depend on any outcome which has no chance of testable outcome.

[mfbukowski]

On 3/11/2016 at 8:58 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

"Now, that would be true if the atheist's non-belief is actually the truth".

But that is the only "truth" we all know of. Atheists base their "truth" on observable universe, scientific experiments that is falsifiable, we don't depend on any outcome which has no chance of testable outcome.

Ah, well an interesting theory coming straight out of logical positivism which has been dead for fifty years.  And incidentally I know many atheists who find great fault with that kind of view of truth, Thomas Nagel and Richard Rorty among them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nagel

Nagel actually "hopes" that there IS no God because he can find no way to falsify the belief..

Rorty has a similar position based on the philosophy of William James

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rorty

I suppose I will take on the cause yet again.

What theory of truth do you subscribe to?  Not that I do not know the answer.  That sounds to me like a rather naive "correspondence" view.

Here are some choices.  I think we will have a fun discussion if that is what you believe.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth/

 

 

[Jeanne]

Perhaps to ease my fear and attain some hope..can someone define.."burn in hell" for me?

[Sanpitch]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Perhaps to ease my fear and attain some hope..can someone define.."burn in hell" for me?

Until someone comes along with a better description, I'll tell you mine.  That is a popular teaching of the Catholic and other Christian faiths that claim if you're bad and don't listen to the teachings of the church that you will go to Hell when you die and burn forever and ever.  That will teach you a lesson about obeying God.  Remember God loves you though.

[thesometimesaint]

On 3/7/2016 at 10:54 AM, CA Steve said:

Yes, but that would apply whether or not that loved one is burning in Hell or just condemned forever to a lower kingdom.

It not a condemnation. It is just a recognition of the type of people they/we have become. They/we will be happy no matter which Kingdom of Glory we are in.

[Glenn101]

On 3/11/2016 at 8:18 PM, cinepro said:

I'm not "reasoning" anything.  I'm simply taking the scriptures at their word.

Your references (Mosiah 15:26, D&C 29) explicitly refer to people who will not repent.  I just don't see what purpose it serves for someone in the Telestial Kingdom to see the potential for Celestial Exaltation, desire it, and then humbly go to God and say "I am willing to repent and make and keep the covenants necessary in order to progress towards exaltation"  and then have God respond "Sorry, but you missed the window of opportunity on this."

I also don't believe your argument about faith being necessary to such a degree that someone in the Telestial Kingdom couldn't have it (their "knowledge" having negating it).  The scriptures have at least two examples of people who were given knowledge of God and his plan and were still able to repent (Paul, Alma the Younger).  There isn't some required level of ignorance necessary for exaltation.  And perhaps there is some degree of faith that would be necessary even for those in the Telestial Kingdom to believe.

As for the potential for people to intentionally sin if they had the knowledge that there was progression between kingdoms, I would simply ask how you would act differently if President Monson stood up in Conference next month and taught that it was revealed to him that there would be progression between the kingdoms.  How would you live your life differently? 

If you honestly believe that you would, in fact, change your behavior based on this knowledge, then that's the most powerful argument you can make and there is nothing I can do to rebut it, and I'll concede the point.  But if you wouldn't change your behavior and would (presumably) continue to strive to make and keep your covenants, then I don't accept your argument.

Neither Paul nor Alma the Younger are recorded as given knowledge of the Lord's plan beyond the need to repent. Alma the Younger was in a pretty awful state and he began remembering what he had already been taught. Paul was given a warning vision that he was fighting against God and was told to go to Damascus and there he would be told what to do. Neither of them are recorded as having the the Gospel laid out to them in it s fullest. They both were also still in the mortal state of their probation, before standing before Jesus Christ in person, before the veil of forgetfulness was lifted.

I don't believe your theory that a person in the telestial Kingdom would need any type of faith to believe. All of those people would already have faced Jesus Christ and had a "bright recollection" of all of their guilt. (Alma 11:43) Knowing of their guilt presupposes a knowledge of the Gospel, not faith any longer. Those people would already have been through their respective hells and have paid the price of their unrepented of sins. They will know the truth by that time.

As for me, at one point in my life, if there was a knowledge of a progression between kingdoms, it just might have made a difference. At a time when I was inactive in the church. Procrastination is a prevalent human tendency.

I would need much more than conjecture and an authoritative and as yet unheard of endorsement of your interpretation of that one scripture to counter all of the scriptures I have cited and the many others I have read to nudge me towards your position.

Glenn

[Thinking]

On 3/6/2016 at 0:46 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

I think for something to be a false hope it must be verifiably proven to be untrue.

Is the inverse true? For something to be a true hope, must it be verifiably proven to be true?

[rodheadlee]

15 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Perhaps to ease my fear and attain some hope..can someone define.."burn in hell" for me?

I did but only one person believed me.

[Calm]

I agree with your comment for the most part, I see it as our own regrets...the righteous being turned towards repentance by it, the unrighteous might even fuel their anger more much like it happened for the unrighteous Nephites at the time of their destruction.  I am not sure what eternity means in this context and if we can understand it as mortals.