The Cruelty of False Hope

[Glenn101]

In my wanderings around cyberspace I came upon an article or two about the cruelty of false hope that is and has been engendered by the advertisements of the homeopathic industry where miracle cures were/are promoted by anecdotal evidence, yet, for the vast majority of participants, the results are, shall we say, much less than satisfactory. That got me thinking about the subject a bit.

An atheist would probably say that Christianity, or any religion that holds out the hope of life after death, a better life, is promoting a false hope. (Now, that would be true if the atheist's non-belief is actually the truth, but it would not be cruel because no one would ever know.)

In my opinion, the truth is the very best antidote to a false hope. Take for instance, the speculation by some that there will be progression between kingdoms in the next life, although there is no doctrinal basis for such a belief, it has never been taught, and there is little to no scriptural support. Could not such speculation give rise to a false hope that one could indulge in illicit pleasures here upon this earth, take a "few stripes", land in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom, then get serious and work his or her way upward to the Celestial Kingdom?

Do we help anyone by telling them what they want to hear, if it is not the truth? Or, are we hurting them by aiding and abetting a false hope, a hope that will never be realized?

And then, is there a time when telling less than the truth, i.e. in withholding a truth could be more kind? I remember to this day when I and some more others in my family gathered to the home of one of my brothers to be present and supportive when my brother told his youngest son that his brain tumor was inoperable, incurable. The crestfallen look on that incredible young man's face was heartrending. Would it have been better not to have told him and just have been there for him and his family until the end??? To this day, I do not know.

So, now, I have really done it. Spoken out of both sides of my mouth, so to speak.

 

Glenn

[Kenngo1969]

The false hope portended by alleged miracle cures has had more than a passing effect on the family of at least one member of this board.  I think the purveyors of such things will have a lot to answer for in the next life: those victimized by their alleged cures will queue up in front of them, each demanding an explanation.

Regarding the potential for progression between kingdoms, I think the best answer is, "No one knows for sure."   Yes, "This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God," but some of us are eons and eons more prepared than others of us.  Yes, what we did (or didn't do) in the life before this one likely has a lot to do with that, but I'm wary of drawing specific relationships between particular alleged premortal causes and their alleged mortal effects.  Someone could point at me, given some of the stuff I've dealt with and do deal with and say, "Aha!  Less valiant!" And I could do the same; but who really knows?  Only Christ; that's what the Atonement was all about.

Christ's ability to take upon Himself our sins, our pain, our weaknesses, our suffering, and so forth makes Him uniquely qualified to judge in a way that no mortal will ever understand.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[Sanpitch]

Promises for eternal happiness if you do everything right, promises of burning in Hell for ever and ever if you don't do everything right.  That's the way to control people.

[rodheadlee]

4 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Promises for eternal happiness if you do everything right, promises of burning in Hell for ever and ever if you don't do everything right.  That's the way to control people.

What if they are just natural consequences of our actions?

[thesometimesaint]

Even if our atheistic friends are correct, after we die no one will know any differently anyway. In the mean time I use my religion to help me become a better person here and now.

[Sanpitch]

49 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

What if they are just natural consequences of our actions?

Burning in Hell for ever and ever is not a natural consequence of our actions and to my mind neither is eternal happiness in paradise a natural consequence.

[rodheadlee]

2 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Burning in Hell for ever and ever is not a natural consequence of our actions and to my mind neither is eternal happiness in paradise a natural consequence.

Burning in Hell is the damnation of being separated from God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost for all eternity as a consequence of our actions and knowing it could have been different if we had only listened to the Holy Ghost.It's a metaphorical Lake of Fire.created by our own regrets.  At least that's they way I understand it.

[thesometimesaint]

12 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Burning in Hell for ever and ever is not a natural consequence of our actions and to my mind neither is eternal happiness in paradise a natural consequence.

Neither is paying the fine for a traffic ticket.

[Glenn101]

30 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Burning in Hell for ever and ever is not a natural consequence of our actions and to my mind neither is eternal happiness in paradise a natural consequence.

Actually, LDS doctrine does not say that we will burn in hell forever. LDS doctrine also does not teach that we will have eternal happiness in paradise. The point is that we need to know the truth to avoid either false hopes that will not be realized or a false despair that we have sinned beyond the pale and we have no hope of redemption.

Glenn

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Sanpitch said:

Promises for eternal happiness if you do everything right, promises of burning in Hell for ever and ever if you don't do everything right.  That's the way to control people.

That sounds horrible. Good thing the LDS faith does not teach that.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Sanpitch said:

Promises for eternal happiness if you do everything right, promises of burning in Hell for ever and ever if you don't do everything right.  That's the way to control people.

That's a remarkably cynical take on the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.  I wouldn't want anything to do with the Gospel, either, if that's the way I saw it.  Differences in perspective notwithstanding, I wish you well.  

Edited March 7, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Burning in Hell is the damnation of being separated from God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost for all eternity as a consequence of our actions and knowing it could have been different if we had only listened to the Holy Ghost.It's a metaphorical Lake of Fire.created by our own regrets.  At least that's they way I understand it.

Brother Jakes explains it all

 

[ALarson]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

What if they are just natural consequences of our actions?

And, what if they're not?

[CA Steve]

I recently went to a meeting at a member's house who had invited some of her member friends over for a sales pitch on essential oils. Several of the attendees were already customers of hers and many of them talked about how much these products had helped them cure a variety of ailments. On the way home I mentioned to my wife that I felt like I had just attended a F&T meeting.

[Kenngo1969]

18 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I recently went to a meeting at a member's house who had invited some of her member friends over for a sales pitch on essential oils. Several of the attendees were already customers of hers and many of them talked about how much these products had helped them cure a variety of ailments. On the way home I mentioned to my wife that I felt like I had just attended a F&T meeting.

Hmmm.  Felt the Spirit testify to you of the truthfulness of the utility of "essential oils," did you?  I'll bet that was an interesting experience.

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I recently went to a meeting at a member's house who had invited some of her member friends over for a sales pitch on essential oils. Several of the attendees were already customers of hers and many of them talked about how much these products had helped them cure a variety of ailments. On the way home I mentioned to my wife that I felt like I had just attended a F&T meeting.

Gotta love priestcraft.

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I recently went to a meeting at a member's house who had invited some of her member friends over for a sales pitch on essential oils. 

At least this was in someone's home and not a "fireside" at church (on the Word of Wisdom, no less).

Edited March 7, 2016 by cdowis

[Sanpitch]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

That's a remarkably cynical take on the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.  I wouldn't want anything to do with the Gospel, either, if that's the way I saw it.  Differences in perspective notwithstanding, I wish you well.  

However Christianity has used the "burn in hell forever" gimmick for many hundreds of years to scare people.  Not LDS but many others.

[HappyJackWagon]

I think for something to be a false hope it must be verifiably proven to be untrue. Using the standard Santa Clause example- If we don't buy our children any gifts because we place our hope in Santa coming down the chimney and supplying gifts, that is verifiably a false hope. In matters of faith, there is plenty of room for hope because, at the very least, the unknown afterlife cannot be verifiably proven false. Therefore we hope and exercise faith in that hope.

But if something is verifiably false, even in religion, there's not much use in placing faith in it. That's why the first principle if Faith in Christ (not in anyone or anything else). We can have hope in him and act in faith according to that hope. Placing that level of faith and hope in anything else will always lead to disappointment.

[cinepro]

7 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

In my wanderings around cyberspace I came upon an article or two about the cruelty of false hope that is and has been engendered by the advertisements of the homeopathic industry where miracle cures were/are promoted by anecdotal evidence, yet, for the vast majority of participants, the results are, shall we say, much less than satisfactory. That got me thinking about the subject a bit.

An atheist would probably say that Christianity, or any religion that holds out the hope of life after death, a better life, is promoting a false hope. (Now, that would be true if the atheist's non-belief is actually the truth, but it would not be cruel because no one would ever know.)

In my opinion, the truth is the very best antidote to a false hope. Take for instance, the speculation by some that there will be progression between kingdoms in the next life, although there is no doctrinal basis for such a belief, it has never been taught, and there is little to no scriptural support. Could not such speculation give rise to a false hope that one could indulge in illicit pleasures here upon this earth, take a "few stripes", land in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom, then get serious and work his or her way upward to the Celestial Kingdom?

 

 

Are you talking about alternative medicine in general, or "homeopathy" specifically?

Regarding "progression between the Kingdoms", not only do I think it's doctrinally sound, I believe it is doctrinally required.

As I've said before...

An oft pondered aspect to the LDS Plan of Salvation is the question of whether or not there will be “Progression Between the Kingdoms”?  (i.e. when someone is judged and assigned to the Terrestrial Kingdom, can they eventually move up to the Celestial Kingdom?)

I’ve heard arguments for both sides, but most seem to skirt the issue or approach it from a severely limited, mortal perspective.  I will now put the issue to rest.  You may print out the following and keep it in your scriptures for future reference:

Yes, there will be progression between the kingdoms. There has to be.

If God’s purpose is to “bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”, what purpose would limiting progression serve from an eternal perspective?

The concept of a “deadline”, after which there is no change for all eternity, only makes sense from a mortal, linear perspective. From an eternal perspective, a “permanent” assignment is nonsensical.

If God is Eternal, and His true purpose is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man“, then there is no reason to not allow people to progress.Ten billion trillion years from now, if there is just one single soul in the Telestial Kingdom who wishes to have faith, repent, make covenants, and be obedient, what purpose would it serve to keep him there?

As we learn in D&C 19, sometimes we are told things from an earthly, linguistically twisted perspective because it is a useful motivation technique for God, not because it is the most accurate view of the eternal reality.

It might take some of the urgency out of our motivation to spread the good word here on Earth if we knew people could come around anytime they needed in the heavenly future. Thus, progression between the kingdoms isn’t a convenient teaching if you want people to get out and knock on doors and toss their 10% into the metaphorical pie tin. But that doesn’t make it false.

 

 

[CA Steve]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Are you talking about alternative medicine in general, or "homeopathy" specifically?

Regarding "progression between the Kingdoms", not only do I think it's doctrinally sound, I believe it is doctrinally required.

As I've said before...

An oft pondered aspect to the LDS Plan of Salvation is the question of whether or not there will be “Progression Between the Kingdoms”?  (i.e. when someone is judged and assigned to the Terrestrial Kingdom, can they eventually move up to the Celestial Kingdom?)

I’ve heard arguments for both sides, but most seem to skirt the issue or approach it from a severely limited, mortal perspective.  I will now put the issue to rest.  You may print out the following and keep it in your scriptures for future reference:

Yes, there will be progression between the kingdoms. There has to be.

If God’s purpose is to “bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”, what purpose would limiting progression serve from an eternal perspective?

The concept of a “deadline”, after which there is no change for all eternity, only makes sense from a mortal, linear perspective. From an eternal perspective, a “permanent” assignment is nonsensical.

If God is Eternal, and His true purpose is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man“, then there is no reason to not allow people to progress.Ten billion trillion years from now, if there is just one single soul in the Telestial Kingdom who wishes to have faith, repent, make covenants, and be obedient, what purpose would it serve to keep him there?

As we learn in D&C 19, sometimes we are told things from an earthly, linguistically twisted perspective because it is a useful motivation technique for God, not because it is the most accurate view of the eternal reality.

It might take some of the urgency out of our motivation to spread the good word here on Earth if we knew people could come around anytime they needed in the heavenly future. Thus, progression between the kingdoms isn’t a convenient teaching if you want people to get out and knock on doors and toss their 10% into the metaphorical pie tin. But that doesn’t make it false.

 

 

Do you believe the 1/3 host that were cast out are condemned to their fate for eternity?

[strappinglad]

3 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Do you believe the 1/3 host that were cast out are condemned to their fate for eternity?

I believe recycling is an eternal principle.

[Glenn101]

11 hours ago, cinepro said:

I’ve heard arguments for both sides, but most seem to skirt the issue or approach it from a severely limited, mortal perspective.  I will now put the issue to rest.  You may print out the following and keep it in your scriptures for future reference:

Yes, there will be progression between the kingdoms. There has to be.

If God’s purpose is to “bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”, what purpose would limiting progression serve from an eternal perspective?

The concept of a “deadline”, after which there is no change for all eternity, only makes sense from a mortal, linear perspective. From an eternal perspective, a “permanent” assignment is nonsensical.

If God is Eternal, and His true purpose is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man“, then there is no reason to not allow people to progress.Ten billion trillion years from now, if there is just one single soul in the Telestial Kingdom who wishes to have faith, repent, make covenants, and be obedient, what purpose would it serve to keep him there?

As we learn in D&C 19, sometimes we are told things from an earthly, linguistically twisted perspective because it is a useful motivation technique for God, not because it is the most accurate view of the eternal reality.

It might take some of the urgency out of our motivation to spread the good word here on Earth if we knew people could come around anytime they needed in the heavenly future. Thus, progression between the kingdoms isn’t a convenient teaching if you want people to get out and knock on doors and toss their 10% into the metaphorical pie tin. But that doesn’t make it false.

 

 

I did not know that you had been called as a prophet, seer, and revelator.  I disagree with you that it is doctrinally sound. Your reasoning is specious at best.

If you remember Paul's definition of faith as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." A person in the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms cannot obtain faith at that point. They will already know that Jesus is the Christ. They will have already met Him by that time. (2 Nephi 9:15)  And, at that time, they will no longer even be able to repent. They died in their sins. Christ's atonement does not redeem such. (Mosiah 15:26)

And once they die in their sins, having wasted Christ's atonement, they will have to suffer for their own sins, (D&C 19:16-18) They cannot be saved. (Alma 5:21)

And just a few more scriptures:

Doctrine and Covenants, Section 29:

 43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

 44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;

Yes, Christ's work and glory was to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The first part is unconditional. i.e. everyone that ever lived will obtain immortality through the resurrection. But the second part is conditional upon faith, repentance, baptism, etc. I have already explained why those in the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms cannot have faith, nor repent.

As in my first post to preach such a progression would give a person hope that he or she can do live just about anyway they wish here upon this earth, die, get their "few stripes", and eventually make it to the Celestial Kingdom. I do not think that any of the prophets of old, Old testament, Book of Mormon, New Testament, or restoration would agree with you interpretation of what "immortality and eternal life" means.

And then, CA Steve mentions those minions of Satan and outer darkness.

Glenn

[Maedros]

14 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

However Christianity has used the "burn in hell forever" gimmick for many hundreds of years to scare people.  Not LDS but many others.

LDS as well

[Kenngo1969]

16 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

However Christianity has used the "burn in hell forever" gimmick for many hundreds of years to scare people.  Not LDS but many others.

I appreciate your qualification of that statement (in your second sentence).  That's a rather important distinction.  For my part, to the extent I do what I do in an effort to accomplish God's purposes for me and for others (while i often fall short), I don't do it because, in the immortal words of B.J. Hunnicutt of M*A*S*H fame, "God will send me to hell without an electric fan," or because I believe God is like Santa Claus, giving us "presents" when we're good and "lumps of coal" when we're not.  Rather, I do it because it's the right thing to do, because it makes me (and hopefully others) happy, and because it fills my soul (and hopefully theirs).