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Posted
9 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

The church now denies that you can become a God so who do you believe?

No, they don't.

Posted (edited)

 

13 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

The church now denies that you can become a God so who do you believe?

Not likely. There are too many verses of scripture in the LDS cannon to repudiate to make such a position tenable. If the Church is at all underplaying the doctrine that men and women can become gods and goddesses, it's only being done in an attempt to keep sacred things from being trampled upon by the spiritually ignorant.

Edited by Bobbieaware
Posted
34 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

 

Not likely. There are too many verses of scripture in the LDS cannon to repudiate to make such a position tenable. If the Church is at all underplaying the doctrine that men and women can become gods and goddesses, it's only being done in an attempt to keep sacred things from being trampled upon by the spiritually ignorant.

Exactly:

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
(Matt 7;6)

"Latter-day Saints see all people as children of God in a full and complete sense; they consider every person divine in origin, nature, and potential. Each has an eternal core and is “a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents.” Each possesses seeds of divinity and must choose whether to live in harmony or tension with that divinity. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people may “progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny.” Just as a child can develop the attributes of his or her parents over time, the divine nature that humans inherit can be developed to become like their Heavenly Father's.

The desire to nurture the divinity in His children is one of God’s attributes that most inspires, motivates, and humbles members of the Church. God’s loving parentage and guidance can help each willing, obedient child of God receive of His fulness and of His glory. This knowledge transforms the way Latter-day Saints see their fellow human beings. The teaching that men and women have the potential to be exalted to a state of godliness clearly expands beyond what is understood by most contemporary Christian churches and expresses for the Latter-day Saints a yearning rooted in the Bible to live as God lives, to love as He loves, and to prepare for all that our loving Father in Heaven wishes for His children."  (Gospel Topics)

Our Quest for Godhood
"In spite of God’s altruistic aims on our behalf, perhaps no doctrine, no teaching, no philosophy has stirred such controversy as has this: that man may become a god.
But how is it possible that you and I, with all our faults and weaknesses and shortcomings, could ever become a god? Fortunately, a loving Heavenly Father has given us resources to lift us above our mortal restraints and propel us to divine heights." (Our Identity and Our Destiny Tad R. Callister, 2012)

Posted
3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I find NOTHING about his background questionable.
I consider him the head of this dispensation, and therefore an equal with Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Moses.

Joseph lived in the sixth seal.

Posted
1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

The doctrine that men can become eternal Gods, and women can become eternal Goddesses, quite literally has EVERYTHING to do with the Gospel of salvation. A member of the LDS Church may deny our God was once a mortal man (precisely as we are now) but it cannot be denied that the LDS standard works teach men and women can become EXACTLY like God. See the following, along with my logical commentary inserted in the parentheses):

 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them (both the man AND the woman) the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye (both the man and the woman) shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights  and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels (they shall be greater than the angels), and the gods which are set there (they shall inherit an even higher state of exalted glory than celestial beings in heaven who are called gods), to their exaltation and glory in all things (i.e. nothing pertaining to a fullness of eternal glory will be withheld from them) as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness (the complete fullness of all things eternity has to offer) and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever (having the everlasting power to produce spirit children, just like our God) .

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end (just like our God); therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting (this one is especially interesting because it confers the very everlastingness of the eternal God, of whom it is said he had no beginning, upon beings who were once existed in a fallen/mortal state), because they continue; then shall they be above all (not just above some things or almost all things) because all things are subject unto them (they will reign as eternal kings and queens over ALL things in a role that appears to be suspiciously just like the role of our God). Then shall they be gods (gods who are even greater than the aforementioned "gods" mentioned in verse 19), because they have all power (not just some power or a lot of power) and the angels are subject unto them.

A member of the Church may not believe our God once experienced an earthly probation, but one thing is for sure: the spirit children of the future gods and goddesses, spoken of in Doctrine and Covenants 132, will be ruled over by beings (those of us who hopefully inherit the fullness of the promises set forth in D&C 132) who once existed in a fallen earthly state. So then, why should we not also conclude that our God was once a man who successfully conquered the fallen nature, overcame all things, and inherited the fullness of eternal glory promised to the fully faithful?

I think there is a miscommunication - I was not discussing Exaltation, but rather the concept that God has a God, etc.  We have no disagreement on the importance of Exaltation.  

Posted
1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

If the Church is at all underplaying the doctrine that men and women can become gods and goddesses, it's only being done in an attempt to keep sacred things from being trampled upon by the spiritually ignorant.

That's one way to look at any perceived "underplaying", I suppose, but I also have seen and participated in attempts to explain the goal a little better than to say we can or are to become gods or Gods.

Like explaining the idea that we already are the same kind of being as our Father in heaven and the goal set before us is to become as perfect and perfectly good as he is.

The word God has multiple meanings and in at least one sense of it's true meaning we already are God.

Posted
8 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

We were discussing the infinite nature of the atonement in Sunday School this week.  As people were opining on what 'infinite" meant, the famous couplet “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be” came to my mind.  That started me wondering about how the atonement applies to this... Does this mean that Heavenly Father himself needed an atonement?

Certainly not on this world. He is the Most High, and does not sin. He never comes to this world as He will never see corruption.

Quote

 Was that atonement retroactively provided by His son?  Did God live a perfect life like unto the Savior and not need redemption?  

No, Christ cannot retroactively provide an atonement for other worlds... that is not in the scriptures. He is the Savior OF THE WORLD - not "worlds."  Once one understands the begotten nature of the Son, and that He was not the Son until He received the oath of His Father, "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee" then one understands that before that as our fellow, He was like us.

Quote

Anyway - does anyone here have thoughts or sources addressing the matter?

Hebrews(ch 5 esp), Acts 13, and various verses of John esp:

"the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do, and whatsoever He doeth, the Son doeth likewise."

"The time cometh shortly, that I will show you plainly of the Father."

Also the Joseph Smith King Follet discourse gives some of the necessary principles. 

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Joseph and Brigham and Joseph F. and Heber and lots of other people knew plenty about it.

I think we stopped knowing at some point for some reason.  Might have had something to do with trying to look more protestant...

The couplet also seemed to disappear from teaching manuals during Hinkley's tenure, and he did not affirm it when interviewed on TV. I wonder if he "knew the way."

Posted
8 hours ago, cinepro said:

I wouldn't worry about the so-called "couplet".  I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I think we might be able to understand the philosophical background behind it, but other than that we don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it.

Sounds like you're channeling the late Pres Hinckley.  :hi:

Posted
1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Joseph lived in the sixth seal.

A seal is a thousand year period, not one of the seven grand dispensations.

Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I think there is a miscommunication - I was not discussing Exaltation, but rather the concept that God has a God, etc.  We have no disagreement on the importance of Exaltation.  

The point I was trying to make is simply this: If, according to D&C 132, the faithful who overcome the world are promised they will eventually become fully like God in every way, then it seems to me it shouldn't be too difficult to believe it's possible that our God was once in the same situation we find ourselves today. What a wonderful concept it is to believe in a God who is a conquering hero instead of a being who doesn't even have to try to be good because he always was and always will be good without ever having to make an effort. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he is a worthy fellow human who, like Christ, rules and reigns by virtue of the fact that he personally conquered the dark forces of existence by his own free will and choice through exercising abiding faith, hope and charity; a God who sets the example by showing us how it's done; a God who walks the walk and doesn't just talk the talk. And if our God is a free agent -- and I believe he is -- then he must have been genuinely tempted by both good and evil, otherwise he's just a sort of automaton.

Edited by Bobbieaware
Clarity
Posted
2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

A seal is a thousand year period, not one of the seven grand dispensations.

So what is this:

Doctrine and Covenants 45

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

 

36 And when the light shall begin to break forth, it shall be with them like unto a parable which I will show you—

Posted
8 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The point I was trying to make is simply this: If, according to D&C 132, the faithful who overcome the world are promised they will eventually become fully like God in every way, then it seems to me it shouldn't be too difficult to believe it's possible that our God was once in the same situation we find ourselves today. What a wonderful concept it is to believe in a God who is a conquering hero instead of a being who doesn't even have to try to be good because he always was and always will be good without ever having to make an effort. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he is a worthy fellow human who, like Christ, rules and reigns by virtue of the fact that he personally conquered the dark forces of existence by his own free will and choice through exercising abiding faith, hope and charity; a God who sets the example by showing us how it's done; a God who walks the walk and doesn't just talk the talk. And if our God is a free agent -- and I believe he is -- then he must have been genuinely tempted by both good and evil, otherwise he's just a sort of automaton.

I understand this position, but it requires that we overlook other Biblical passages like "I am Alpha and Omega" and others.  It creates far more questions than it answers.  As I said in one of my first posts it is easier for me to stop with God being God.  There is no need to understand the First Cause.  

I am not saying your premise is wrong, rather I am saying that it does not suffice and I do not find that it edifies me in any way.  Though I understand the logic of what you are proposing, it remains a door to bigger questions.  It may be that I am too lazy to contemplate this mystery at this time.  

Posted
8 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The point I was trying to make is simply this: If, according to D&C 132, the faithful who overcome the world are promised they will eventually become fully like God in every way, then it seems to me it shouldn't be too difficult to believe it's possible that our God was once in the same situation we find ourselves today. What a wonderful concept it is to believe in a God who is a conquering hero instead of a being who doesn't even have to try to be good because he always was and always will be good,without ever having to make an effort. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he is a worthy fellow human who, like Christ, rules and reigns by virtue of the fact that he personally conquered the dark forces of existence by his own free will and choice through exercising abiding faith, hope and charity; a God who sets the example by showing us how it's done; a God who walks the walk and doesn't just talk the talk. And if our God is a free agent -- and I believe he is -- then he must have been genuinely tempted by both good and evil, otherwise he's a sort of automaton.

I appreciate your position. Here's something to contemplate: The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants teach that all intelligences -- and I would imagine that must includes God himself -- are free agents who are free to act for themselves. The Book of Mormon goes on to say that the freedom to choose can only exist as a viable reality if each individual intelligence is tempted by both the spiritually positive and spiritually negative sides of reality. The Book of Mormon continues saying that the freedom to choose is made possible by the infinite and eternal atonement of God. Therefore, if the Book of Mormon and D&C are correct, God's freedom of choice is made possible only by being tempted by the one side and the other; and that same freedom to choose is only made possible by the atonement, the blessings of which extend into the infinite past and into infinite future. The Book of Mormon also says that if there be no atoning Christ, there could be no God.

Posted

Is this a lie or not, it's been discussed here before but I don't know how anyone can dispute this statement and then accept D&C 132:

Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

Posted
33 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

. The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

Now there's a sentence. It's like a spiral staircase!

Posted
48 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Is this a lie or not, it's been discussed here before but I don't know how anyone can dispute this statement and then accept D&C 132:

Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

No, we don't get our own planet; we get to create our own entire universe. But the above statement is right in that there are no specific scriptures that say exactly what all the possibilities of exaltation include; we only have statements from past church leaders who have expressed their own opinions on this subject, that we are free to accept or not. 

Posted
1 minute ago, JAHS said:

No, we don't get our own planet; we get to create our own entire universe. But the above statement is right in that there are no specific scriptures that say exactly what all the possibilities of exaltation include; we only have statements from past church leaders who have expressed their own opinions on this subject, that we are free to accept or not. 

The D&C seems to understand it quite clearly:  ".....and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights  and depths...."

Could that be everything imaginable except your own Earth?

Posted
3 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

".....and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights  and depths...."

Inherit, that's what I want, I don't want go run all over the universe creating everything myself.

Posted
7 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Inherit, that's what I want, I don't want go run all over the universe creating everything myself.

If we have all heights and depths of power, sounds like we will have enough power to create a universe.

 

Posted
1 hour ago, Sanpitch said:

Is this a lie or not, it's been discussed here before but I don't know how anyone can dispute this statement and then accept D&C 132:

Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

The order of God is in the scriptures - in the structure of the temple itself, etc. 

In the regeneration, Christ will receive the fullness of His inheritance as our Father. Those who follow him shall be His judges. 

Here is how I read John 14;2: "In my Father's house" [His house is the house of Elohim variously translated as gods or God in English. It is the plural form of Eloah, which is much less commonly used in the Tanakh, but is usually found with reference to being the Stone of Israel or Rock of Salvation. El means something like "the power." Elohim is something like referring to the family of the house, and thus can be used plurally with a plural verb or singularly with a plural connotation - a family has multiple members. This is why we find El saying things like "I am an El of Elohim." in Deut. He is saying something like I am The Power of the family of immovable force/stone.]

"are many mansions." [are many rooms or places of authority or probably more accurately priesthood keys. "To sit on my right hand or my left, is not mine to give, but shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.:"].

"and they sing a new song, before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

I can say confidently that the Celestial Kingdom is the House of Elohim. Beyond that the order of the house is more unknown. In English it would be rendered the House of gods, but I don't much care for that rendering. It does not imply that those in the house are called The Most High or El Elyon. The English word "god" gets used for El, Eloah, and Elohim, and in my estimation in the Hebrew those are different things or titles.

Posted
46 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

The D&C seems to understand it quite clearly:  ".....and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights  and depths...."

Could that be everything imaginable except your own Earth?

That scripture does explain a lot, but it still doesn't specifically say that we will actually create anything; we sort of just assume that we will.

Posted
6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

That scripture does explain a lot, but it still doesn't specifically say that we will actually create anything; we sort of just assume that we will.

Now wait a minute, doesn't the D&C say in one statement something about creating worlds for your offspring or something similar?  Haven't got time to look it up now, just asking?

Posted
1 hour ago, Sanpitch said:

Now wait a minute, doesn't the D&C say in one statement something about creating worlds for your offspring or something similar?  Haven't got time to look it up now, just asking?

The only scripture I know of that sorts of hints at this is 132: 19 where it says,
"and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever."

President Joseph F. Smith gave his explanation of this phrase:
"Some of you will understand when I tell you that some of these good women who have passed beyond have actually been anointed queens and priestesses unto God and unto their husbands, to continue their work and to be the mothers of spirits in the world to come. The world does not understand this—they cannot receive it—they do not know what it means, and it is sometimes hard for those who ought to be thoroughly imbued with the spirit of the gospel—even for some of us, to comprehend, but it is true" (Gospel Doctrine, 461).

Elder Harold B. Lee said: "If marriage ... [is] for 'multiplying and replenishing the earth' on which we now live, surely there must likewise be a divine purpose in its being continued after the resurrection. This purpose is declared by the Lord to be for 'a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.'" 

Brigham Young said: "After men have got their exaltations and their crowns-have become Gods.... they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements and then commence the organization of tabernacles." (JD 6:275.)

Posted
20 hours ago, JAHS said:

The only scripture I know of that sorts of hints at this is 132: 19 where it says,
"and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever."

President Joseph F. Smith gave his explanation of this phrase:
"Some of you will understand when I tell you that some of these good women who have passed beyond have actually been anointed queens and priestesses unto God and unto their husbands, to continue their work and to be the mothers of spirits in the world to come. The world does not understand this—they cannot receive it—they do not know what it means, and it is sometimes hard for those who ought to be thoroughly imbued with the spirit of the gospel—even for some of us, to comprehend, but it is true" (Gospel Doctrine, 461).

Elder Harold B. Lee said: "If marriage ... [is] for 'multiplying and replenishing the earth' on which we now live, surely there must likewise be a divine purpose in its being continued after the resurrection. This purpose is declared by the Lord to be for 'a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.'" 

Brigham Young said: "After men have got their exaltations and their crowns-have become Gods.... they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements and then commence the organizatioon of tabernacles." (JD 6:275.)

However there is the following quote about worlds.  It's obvious to me why so  many people of the older generations felt they were going to have their own world it they attained godhood:

  Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48:

The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.

Posted
47 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

However there is the following quote about worlds.  It's obvious to me why so  many people of the older generations felt they were going to have their own world it they attained godhood:

  Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48:

The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.

He does say "worlds" in that quote, which would imply being the God over a universe. There have been different opinions about this among past church leaders. But the bottom line is that the church does not deny that we can become gods sometime in the eternity, although we don't fully understand all the details of the doctrine. That is probably why we don't emphasize it when presenting the gospel to the world. 

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