TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) I am glad the LDS church "has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion". I just hope that someday our LDS church stays out of all political issues. The mission of our church is to tell us how to behave and live our own personal lives, not the lives of those that disagree. It is sad that lawmakers in some countries based their laws on religious teachings alone. The Catholic church influences lawmakers in many countries like Paraguay. In Paraguay, a pregnant 10-year-old rape victim can't get an abortion because it is against the law. Pregnant 10-year-old rape victim denied abortion in Paraguay I hope our church stays out of politics in the future, we can think for ourselves about political issues. Quote So far as is known, the Lord does not regard this transgression as murder. And “as far as has been revealed, a person may repent and be forgiven for the sin of abortion.” Gratefully, we know the Lord will help all who are truly repentant. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/04/reverence-for-life?lang=eng Edited February 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Paraguay also fight wars. The Catholic church teaches against war. If the Paraguayans want to legalize abortion it is up to them. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Paraguay
Popular Post Bernard Gui Posted February 18, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 18, 2016 Abortion is a moral issue. It is immoral. I hope the Church maintains staunch opposition to it. 7
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Abortion is a moral issue. It is immoral. I hope the Church maintains staunch opposition to it. But it doesn't. There are clear cases where it is permissible. Life, health of the mother, rape, incest, fetal non-viability. 3
Popular Post Bernard Gui Posted February 18, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 18, 2016 16 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: But it doesn't. There are clear cases where it is permissible. Life, health of the mother, rape, incest, fetal non-viability. One can allow exceptions and staunchly oppose it. 5
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Author Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: One can allow exceptions and staunchly oppose it. but when religion gets involved in politics, exceptions go away. Why don't you say anything about the 10 year old? 7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Paraguay also fight wars. The Catholic church teaches against war. If the Paraguayans want to legalize abortion it is up to them. Good, the Catholic church was also against the 2003 preemptive strikes in Iraq, but most AmericanLDS supported them back then. Quote "When I came to this pulpit at that time, the war against terrorism had just begun. The present war is really an outgrowth and continuation of that conflict...It is clear from these and other writings that there are times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression" - Gordon B Hinckley on the Iraq War Today most LDS changed their mind, now most American LDS agree it was a big mistake to invade Iraq. Edited February 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
JLHPROF Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Just now, TheSkepticChristian said: when religion gets involved in politics You should get used to it. It will be the end result. Mormonism has always anticipated a union of political and religious. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Author Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You should get used to it. It will be the end result. Mormonism has always anticipated a union of political and religious. My patience has a limit, but for now I will still be a member of the church. Edited February 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: One can allow exceptions and staunchly oppose it. Not really. We simply find it permissible under some conditions. I don't favor abortion under any circumstances, but find that under some circumstances "no abortion period" is the worse option. My personal opinion is that we need to keep abortion safe, legal, and rare. 1
mtomm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 1) I'm guessing most religious people are against abortion until they need one. So they are staunchly against abortion but exceptions are okay because #1. And everyone's definition of need will differ. Your need is not my need and vice versa. Hence zero tolerance laws and rules tend to be a poor ways to govern. I feel the Church's stance is reasonable for members. I don't think we need to make all laws based on our doctrine, however. Edited February 18, 2016 by mtomm
Jeanne Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 I don't like abortion..hate it..especially late term. I do understand it when it comes to incest, rape and life threatening. That being said, I have no right to tell another how to live and what to do with their own body. It is hard..but I can't take away someone else's right without hurting my rights as well. 1
USU78 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: I don't like abortion..hate it..especially late term. I do understand it when it comes to incest, rape and life threatening. That being said, I have no right to tell another how to live and what to do with their own body. It is hard..but I can't take away someone else's right without hurting my rights as well. With all due respect, it's not that simple. As soon as a genetically unique human organism comes into being, its interests are interesting. The Church takes the position that that genetically unique human organism's right to life may be taken if its conception occurred without the meaningful consent of its female parent/incubatrix. Take away that consent (incest, rape, life of the mother), and the female parent/incubatrix' personal integrity has been violated and she has been made slave to the male parent/rapists's desires. Her integrity under such circumstances must be protected in the only meaningful way available: termination of the life of that genetically unique human organism. And that is notwithstanding that genetically unique human's innocence in the entire affair. How greatly is she who had pregnancy foisted upon her to be blessed if, her battered integrity notwithstanding, she chooses that genetically unique human organism's life over her pain? Moreover, we all have a stake in the protection of innocent life. It is not a personal choice when another's life is at stake. 2
Jeanne Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 23 minutes ago, USU78 said: With all due respect, it's not that simple. As soon as a genetically unique human organism comes into being, its interests are interesting. The Church takes the position that that genetically unique human organism's right to life may be taken if its conception occurred without the meaningful consent of its female parent/incubatrix. Take away that consent (incest, rape, life of the mother), and the female parent/incubatrix' personal integrity has been violated and she has been made slave to the male parent/rapists's desires. Her integrity under such circumstances must be protected in the only meaningful way available: termination of the life of that genetically unique human organism. And that is notwithstanding that genetically unique human's innocence in the entire affair. How greatly is she who had pregnancy foisted upon her to be blessed if, her battered integrity notwithstanding, she chooses that genetically unique human organism's life over her pain? Moreover, we all have a stake in the protection of innocent life. It is not a personal choice when another's life is at stake. Like I say..it is not what I would do,,,and if I could help alter the choice of others..I would. It is so simple and complicated at the same time.
rpn Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Quote But it doesn't. There are clear cases where it is permissible. Life, health of the mother, rape, incest, fetal non-viability. I think you are misstating the lds position. There is nothing in what the Church has written that gives permission for abortion. It merely says that it will not take disciplinary action against members who do so in such cases. I think the reason for that is that there has been no revelation on when the spirit enters the body and becomes one with it. Even in those tough cases, it remains up to the mother (and I hope in lds homes, the father too) to determine whether the Lord is okay with a decision to abort or not, and/or whether they can bring themselves to a position to give birth, because ultimately it will be Him who judges any such decision. Church leadership has determined that in the few identified circumstances mortal men are not in a position to judge the decisions of their fellow saints. That is not the same as giving permission or approving abortion. 1
Teancum Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 8 hours ago, JLHPROF said: You should get used to it. It will be the end result. Mormonism has always anticipated a union of political and religious. Good thing it an anticipation based in fantasy.
strappinglad Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 I was interested then surprised at the stats here shown. Just short of a million abortions in the US every year and trending downward. Legal - yes, safe - mostly, rare - far from it. Primary, nationwide abortion statistics for the United States are available from two sources—privately from the Guttmacher Institute (AGI) and publicly from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). In recent years, California, Maryland, and New Hampshire have not publicly released their abortion totals—rendering the CDC numbers incomplete. The following information has been gleaned from both sources to provide an overview of the frequency and demography of abortion. Additional, secondary statistics have been taken from the National Abortion Federation's (NAF) 2009 teaching text on abortion, Management of Unintended and Abnormal Pregnancy: Comprehensive Abortion Care. TO LEARN MORE ABOUT ABORTION, VISIT: Prenatal Development, Abortion Procedures or Abortion Pictures IF YOU ARE PREGNANT AND NEED HELP, VISIT: OptionLine.org ANNUAL ABORTION STATISTICS Based on available state-level data, an estimated 977,000 abortions took place in 2014—down from approximately 983,000 abortions in 2013 and 1.02 million abortions in 2012. In 2011, 1.06 million abortions took place in the U.S., down from 1.21 million abortions in 2008, 1.2 million in 2005, 1.29 million in 2002, 1.31 million in 2000 and 1.36 million in 1996. From 1973 through 2011, nearly 53 million legal abortions occurred in the U.S. (AGI). Twenty-one percent of all U.S. pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion. (AGI). In 2011, the highest number of reported abortions occurred in California (181,730), New York (138,370) and Florida (84,990); the fewest occurred in Wyoming (120), South Dakota (600) and North Dakota (1,250) (AGI). Mississippi had the lowest abortion rate in 2011 (Wyoming had too few abortions for reliable tabulation), and New York had the highest (AGI). There were approximately 17.5 births for every abortion in Mississippi and approximately 2.3 births for every abortion in New York. The annual number of legal induced abortions in the United States doubled between 1973 and 1979, and peaked in 1990. There was a slow but steady decline through the 1990's. Overall, the number of annual abortions decreased by 6% between 2000 and 2009, with temporary spikes in 2002 and 2006 (CDC). From 2011 to 2012, the total number and ratio of reported abortions decreased by 4% (CDC). In 2011, 17% of legal induced abortions occurred in California (AGI). The US abortion rate is similar to those of Australia, New Zealand, and Sweden but higher than those of other Western European countries (NAF). In 2005, the abortion rate in the United States was higher than recent rates reported for Canada and Western European countries and lower than rates reported for China, Cuba, the majority of Eastern European countries, and certain Newly Independent States of the former Soviet Union (CDC). WHO HAS ABORTIONS? In 2012, unmarried women accounted for 85.3% of all abortions (CDC). Women living with a partner to whom they are not married account for 25% of abortions but only about 10% of women in the population (NAF). In 2012, women who had not aborted in the past accounted for 55.7% of all abortions; women with one or two prior abortions accounted for 35.6%, and women with three or more prior abortions accounted for 8.6% (CDC). Among women who obtained abortions in 2012, 40.3% had no prior live births; 45.8% had one or two prior live births, and 14.0% had three or more prior live births (CDC). Women between the ages of 20-24 obtained 32.8% of all abortions in 2012; women between 25-29 obtained 25.4% (CDC). In 2012, adolescents under 15 years obtained .04% of all abortions, but had the highest abortion ratio: 817 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC). Black women were 3.6 times more likely to have an abortion in 2012 than non-Hispanic white women (CDC). The abortion rate of non-metropolitan women is about half that of women who live in metropolitan counties (NAF). The abortion rate of women with Medicaid coverage is three times as high as that of other women (NAF). 37% of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 28% identify themselves as Catholic (AGI). WHY DO ABORTIONS OCCUR? On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion: 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about 3/4 say they cannot afford a child; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner (AGI). Only 12% of women included a physical problem with their health among reasons for having an abortion (NAF). One per cent (of aborting women) reported that they were the survivors of rape (NAF). WHEN DO ABORTIONS OCCUR? 89-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC). In 2012, 7.2% of all abortions occurred between 14-20 weeks' gestation; 1.3% occurred ≥21 weeks' gestation (CDC). Percentage of 2012 Reported Abortions by Weeks of Gestation* (CDC): ≤6 wks 7 wks 8 wks 9 wks 10 wks 11 wks 12 wks 13 wks 14-15 wks 16-17 wks 18-20 wks ≥21 wks 34.9% 17.7% 13.2% 8.7% 5.8% 4.8% 3.6% 2.7% 3.5% 1.8% 1.9% 1.3% ≤6 wks 7 wks 8 wks 9 wks 10 wks 11 wks 12 wks 34.9% 17.7% 13.2% 8.7% 5.8% 4.8% 3.6% 13 wks 14-15 wks 16-17 wks 18-20 wks ≥21 wks 2.7% 3.5% 1.8% 1.9% 1.3% *Gestational weeks are measured from the first day of the woman's last menstruation and not from the day of conception. Though it does not provide an accurate fetal age (which is roughly 2 weeks less than the gestational age), it is the simplest way for an OB/GYN to age a pregnancy since the day of conception is often not known. Hence, if an abortion occurs at 8 weeks gestation, it is actually aborting a 6 week embryo. The images on our Prenatal Development and Abortion Pictures pages are more precisely captioned with fetal ages in accordance with standard teaching texts on prenatal development. HOW DOES ABORTION TAKE PLACE? In 2012, 78.1% of reported abortions were accomplished by curettage (which includes dilatation and evacuation). Most curettage abortions are suction procedures (CDC). Medical abortions made up approximately 21.9% of all abortions reported in 2012 (CDC). Ninety-six per cent of the more than 140,000 second-trimester abortions that occur annually in the USA are accomplished by dilation and evacuation (D&E) (NAF). WHO IS DOING THE ABORTIONS? The number of abortion providers declined by 4% between 2008 and 2011—from 1,793 to 1,720 (AGI). Forty-two percent of providers offer very early abortions (during the first four weeks’ gestation) and 95% offer abortion at eight weeks. Sixty-four percent of providers offer at least some second-trimester abortion services (13 weeks or later), and 20% offer abortion after 20 weeks. Eleven percent of all abortion providers offer abortions past 24 weeks (AGI). Most abortions in the USA are provided in freestanding clinics; in 2005, only 5% occurred in hospitals, down from 22% in 1980, and only 2% took place in physician's offices (NAF). ABORTION FATALITY In 2011, two women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion; From 1973-2010, 421 women have died as a result of legal abortion (CDC). The number of deaths attributable to legal induced abortion was highest before the 1980s (CDC). In 1972 (the year before abortion was federally legalized), a total of 24 women died from causes known to be associated with legal abortions, and 39 died as a result of known illegal abortions (CDC). THE COST OF ABORTION In 2009, the average cost of a nonhospital abortion with local anesthesia at 10 weeks of gestation was $451 (AGI). MEDICAL ABORTION In 2011, 59% of abortion providers, or 1,023 facilities, provided one or more types of medical abortions. At least 17% of abortion providers offer only medication abortion services (AGI). Medication abortion accounted for 23% of all nonhospital abortions in 2011 (AGI). ABORTION AND CONTRACEPTION Induced abortions usually result from unintended pregnancies, which often occur despite the use of contraception (CDC). 51% of women having abortions used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. (AGI). 8% of women having abortions have never used a method of birth control (AGI). 9 in 10 women at risk of unintended pregnancy are using a contraceptive method (AGI). Oral contraceptives, the most widely used reversible method of contraception, carry failure rates of 6 to 8% in actual practice (NAF). ABORTION AND MINORS 40% of minors having an abortion report that neither of their parents knew about the abortion (AGI). 39 states currently enforce parental consent or notification laws for minors seeking an abortion: AL, AK, AR, AZ, CO, DE, FL, GA, IA, ID, IL, IN, KS, KY, LA, MA, MD, MI, MN, MO, MS, MT, NC, ND, NE, NH, OH, OK, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WI, WV, and WY. The Supreme Court ruled that minors must have the alternative of seeking a court order authorizing the procedure (AGI). ABORTION AND PUBLIC FUNDS The U.S. Congress has barred the use of federal Medicaid funds to pay for abortions, except when the woman's life would be endangered by a full-term pregnancy or in cases of rape or incest (AGI). 17 states (AK, AZ, CA, CT, HI, IL, MA, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) use public funds to pay for abortions for some poor women. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds—virtually all from the state (AGI). This page was last updated on February 05, 2016. To cite this page in a research paper, visit: "Citing Abort73 as a Source." Continue to the next page: Canadian Abortion Statistics For Further Study: State Abortion Facts: Comparative state abortion stats by rank, total, percentage, and clinics. Contrary to Popular Opinion, America Already Has an “Extreme” Position on Abortion (Abort73 Blog) Where We’re Going; Where We’ve Been: Abortion in Japan, Rwanda and the United
Calm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, rpn said: I think you are misstating the lds position. There is nothing in what the Church has written that gives permission for abortion. It merely says that it will not take disciplinary action against members who do so in such cases. That is not what it says here, there is no reference to disciplinary action in this statement: Quote The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer. https://www.mormon.org/faq/church-position-on-abortion Now you can interpret that as giving permission or not, but there is nothing saying "it will not take...." Also here: Quote The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life. Therefore, the Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience, and counsels its members not to submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions. The Church allows for possible exceptions for its members when: Pregnancy results from rape or incest, or A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, or A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons involved have consulted with their local church leaders and feel through personal prayer that their decision is correct. The Church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/official-statement/abortion Edited February 19, 2016 by Calm
Calm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Here it speaks about disciplinary action for elective abortions, but uses the term "justified" for the possible exceptions: Quote Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer. https://www.lds.org/topics/abortion?lang=eng justify: show or prove to be right or reasonable Edited February 19, 2016 by Calm
strappinglad Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 If, and I emphasize IF, the US population was to follow the guidelines the Church presents on abortion , there would likely be 600,000 fewer per year. Then we would be entering the " rare " territory. Ain't gonna happen.
Traela Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Interestingly, I understand that the Jewish position is that abortion for "convenience" is not allowed, but if the life of the mother is at stake it is mandatory.
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Teancum said: Good thing it an anticipation based in fantasy. Not at all. The day WILL come. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 9 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: but when religion gets involved in politics, exceptions go away. Why don't you say anything about the 10 year old? Here we go. If you don't agree with Mr Christian, then you don't care about the 10 year old. Because the only way to care about the 10 year old is to agree with Mr Christian. That's manipulative and dishonest. Kindly desist from such cheap tactics. Well, here's my view: I do care about the 10 year old. And if the government of Paraguay had modelled its legislation upon the views of the Church of Jesus Christ instead of the dominant Catholic Church, their laws would allow for such cases as the 10 year old. I'm glad the Church takes the rare stands it does take on matters of public morality. I'm glad because it's the right thing to do. The fact that it infuriates socialist MINO's is just icing on the cake. But I don't agree that taking those rare stands is "getting involved in politics." 2
mtomm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Each one of those abortions represents a woman in distress. I will not tell that woman that since my conviction and church feels abortion is immoral that she needs to do what I tell her. I found this item one of the most interesting in the list: Quote Induced abortions usually result from unintended pregnancies, which often occur despite the use of contraception (CDC). 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: If, and I emphasize IF, the US population was to follow the guidelines the Church presents on abortion , there would likely be 600,000 fewer per year. Then we would be entering the " rare " territory. Ain't gonna happen. And 600,000 more children born into what type of circumstances? Until I'm ready to take in even one of those children (which I'm not) then I need allow the mother to consider her own situation.
Russell C McGregor Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 48 minutes ago, mtomm said: Each one of those abortions represents a woman in distress. I will not tell that woman that since my conviction and church feels abortion is immoral that she needs to do what I tell her. I found this item one of the most interesting in the list: And 600,000 more children born into what type of circumstances? Until I'm ready to take in even one of those children (which I'm not) then I need allow the mother to consider her own situation. Perhaps they'll be born into circumstances that are at least marginally better than being aborted? Until I learn for a fact that an unborn person is not human, I'm not going to talk about the mother as if she's the only one under consideration. 2
Teancum Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Not at all. The day WILL come. Yea people have been saying that for 2000 years. Jesus Apostles thought it would be in their lives. Just read Paul. Even Jesus taught the end would happen in the lifetime of those he preached to. Mormonism is also a Millenial religion and its founder and founding revelations as well as their attempts to build a city of Zion contemplated a theocracy led by Jesus that would happen in their life times. Yet still we wait.....and wait.....and wait....
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