Russell C McGregor Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 On 2/20/2016 at 1:34 PM, mtomm said: Please show me where I said that adoption was not an option? Tell me how the words pro choice takes away any of the woman's options? Now tell me how that's works for pro-lifers? And please explain how giving up a baby for adoption is less traumatic than abortion? And who gets to decide which is better for her? It's a whole lot less traumatic for the baby. Most adoptive children survive adoption. The number who survive abortion is not so great. But occasionally they do; so the abortionist throws them into the sluice-room sink or a garbage bag and lets them die of exposure or asphyxiation instead. But hey -- if that's what the mother chooses, it's hunky-dory, right? On 2/20/2016 at 1:34 PM, mtomm said: These women are more than just an unwanted pregnancy. And they are more than just an avenue for infertile couples to adopt. Yes, heaven forfend that any infertile couples should adopt! I seem to recall that King Solomon was once asked to judge between two women who both claimed to be the mother of the same child. When he offered to slice the child in half, one withdrew her claim, saying that she wanted the child to live; the other told him to go ahead, since if she couldn't have the child, nobody should. Solomon awarded the child to the less selfish claimant. I take it you disapprove?
Meadowchik Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 3 hours ago, mtomm said: And rodheadlee says abortion is barbaric. Don't just blame unmarried people though, plenty of married folks have unwanted pregnancies. It is barbaric. Women have power to rid the world of this barbarism. Why should society enable the opposite? 2
Russell C McGregor Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 On 2/19/2016 at 7:51 AM, TheSkepticChristian said: Funny how this thread derailed to an Abortion debate, everybody here is ignoring the extreme laws in Paraguay based on the Catholic church. I guess nobody cares about Paraguay, just as long as LDS church is the main religion that influences lawmakers in Utah. I guess you've failed to even try to make any meaningful connection between the alleged laws in Paraguay and the position of the Church of Jesus Christ.
Russell C McGregor Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 On 2/19/2016 at 9:59 AM, Meadowchik said: How, exactly? I'm sure Skeptic's hero, Tovarich Bernie, could get some ideas from his own hero, sometimes called "Koba."
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 23 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: I guess you've failed to even try to make any meaningful connection between the alleged laws in Paraguay and the position of the Church of Jesus Christ. LOL I did not try to make any connection! you clearly did not understand my point!
Russell C McGregor Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 1 minute ago, TheSkepticChristian said: LOL I did not try to make any connection! you clearly did not understand my point! Yes, I understood your point. Paraguay has conservative abortion laws. Paraguay is a Catholic country. The Church of Jesus Christ has a different stand on abortion than is represented by Paraguay's laws. Therefore, the Church of Jesus Christ should never make any statements in the public square on any subject that might become a matter of legislation, just in case any voters and/or legislators take notice. Isn't that your point?
Meadowchik Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Russell, congrats, you just one-upped Godwin's law! :/
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: Yes, I understood your point. Paraguay has conservative abortion laws. Paraguay is a Catholic country. The Church of Jesus Christ has a different stand on abortion than is represented by Paraguay's laws. Therefore, the Church of Jesus Christ should never make any statements in the public square on any subject that might become a matter of legislation, just in case any voters and/or legislators take notice. Isn't that your point? NO! my point is that all religions should stay out of politics! If Utah was like Paraguay, you would have been furious.
rodheadlee Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 9 hours ago, Calm said: A child has no choice in whether to be born or not as far as we know and they certainly don't have it for a significant part of their early life and in many cases of FAS, not much as an adult either...as least after the whole plan of salvation meeting. I assume you are not that comfortable with suicide, which would seem to be a free will choice. Pardon me if you are, but it seems to me when we step in to prevent suicide we are removing someone's agency to choose death, are we not? That is pretty ironic as both abortion and suicide lead to death and are non-reversible decisions. Suicide ends free will.
rodheadlee Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) On 2/20/2016 at 4:34 PM, mtomm said: Please show me where I said that adoption was not an option? Tell me how the words pro choice takes away any of the woman's options? Now tell me how that's works for pro-lifers? And please explain how giving up a baby for adoption is less traumatic than abortion? And who gets to decide which is better for her? These women are more than just an unwanted pregnancy. And they are more than just an avenue for infertile couples to adopt. The choice was made when they had consensual sex. You can dress it up anyway you like, abortion is killing a living human. Edited February 21, 2016 by rodheadlee
rodheadlee Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, mtomm said: Except... Sometimes it's not. I realize this discussion is not changing minds but I really appreciate those that can move beyond rhetoric and discuss a rather complex subject. Even the Church does not view this as a black and white topic. Sorry , Sceptic, I'm sure I'm helping the derail. If it were only rhetoric you would have a point, but it's not. What do you think Jesus Christ thinks about abortion? Edited February 21, 2016 by rodheadlee
thesometimesaint Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Life, and health of the mother, rape, incest, non-livability are permissible reasons for abortion, at least according the the Church.
rodheadlee Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Life, and health of the mother, rape, incest, non-livability are permissible reasons for abortion, at least according the the Church. What mother wouldn't give up her life that her child might live? I guess abut a million a year in the US.
thesometimesaint Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: What mother wouldn't give up her life that her child might live? I guess abut a million a year in the US. Ectopic pregnancies SEE http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-ectopic-pregnancy
rodheadlee Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Here is what I think Jesus Christ thinks about abortion. From the PoF "THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife. WE DECLARE the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan. HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations."
thesometimesaint Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Here is what I think Jesus Christ thinks about abortion. From the PoF "THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife. WE DECLARE the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan. HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations." Apparently Jesus agrees with the Church that the Life, and health of the mother, rape, incest, non-livability are permissible reasons for abortion. 1
mtomm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Declaring a fetus as a living human being is a slippery slope with some serious consequences. 9 hours ago, Meadowchik said: It is barbaric. Women have power to rid the world of this barbarism. Why should society enable the opposite? See Paraguay.
Meadowchik Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 1 minute ago, mtomm said: Declaring a fetus as a living human being is a slippery slope with some serious consequences. See Paraguay. A fetus is a living human being. That is inescapable fact. How we want to value and protect one, however, that comes down to values and opinions. 2
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 17 minutes ago, mtomm said: Declaring a fetus as a living human being is a slippery slope with some serious consequences. It is a living human being. It has a heartbeat, a brain, a nervous system, and I believe a spirit too. I truly believe abortion to be an unpardonable sin (and a probable bar to exaltation - there is a principle concerning a blessing once rejected). That's not rhetoric. There is no rhetoric needed to believe that ending the life of an innocent growing baby is committing the unpardonable sin. And I don't care what current Church political position is on that topic. Only God can judge all the complexities to be sure, but I don't see anything in the word of God that would allow forgiveness for that act of agency. 1
Meadowchik Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: It is a living human being. It has a heartbeat, a brain, a nervous system, and I believe a spirit too. I truly believe abortion to be an unpardonable sin (and a probable bar to exaltation - there is a principle concerning a blessing once rejected). That's not rhetoric. There is no rhetoric needed to believe that ending the life of an innocent growing baby is committing the unpardonable sin. And I don't care what current Church political position is on that topic. Only God can judge all the complexities to be sure, but I don't see anything in the word of God that would allow forgiveness for that act of agency. I wouldn't say such a judgment could be made absent Spiritual authority and all other facts. Also, I believe God is more merciful than we can comprehend.
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: I wouldn't say such a judgment could be made absent Spiritual authority and all other facts. Also, I believe God is more merciful than we can comprehend. Oh, I agree with all of this. But the law is established in scripture as unforgivable, and God is a follower of law else he would cease to be God.
thesometimesaint Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 30 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: A fetus is a living human being. That is inescapable fact. How we want to value and protect one, however, that comes down to values and opinions. No; that is your religious belief. Living indisputable; Human being debatable. Many other religions, including Christian ones, have differing beliefs concerning abortion.
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Just now, thesometimesaint said: No; that is your religious belief. Living indisputable; Human being debatable. Many other religions, including Christian ones, have differing beliefs concerning abortion. And beliefs are irrelevant to reality. It doesn't matter what we believe concerning a fetus. It isn't some theoretical. If it IS a living human being and we end its mortal existence we have committed murder, whether we believe it or not. God isn't likely to say "oh, you didn't think it was a living being when you killed it, oh well, we'll let it go then". A law has still been broken and an evil act committed.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: No; that is your religious belief. Living indisputable; Human being debatable. Many other religions, including Christian ones, have differing beliefs concerning abortion. and that is why religion should stay out of political debates.
Jeanne Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 This discussion board has been difficult for me today..With abortion..and then the death penalty..I have had to ask myself serious questions. Thanks to all of you.
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