mtomm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: Perhaps they'll be born into circumstances that are at least marginally better than being aborted? Until I learn for a fact that an unborn person is not human, I'm not going to talk about the mother as if she's the only one under consideration. If we really believe in this most beautiful afterlife why the angst over abortion? It doesn't even matter if they are human yet. What happens to children who die through miscarriage? And as far as that mother is concerned it seems many don't want to talk about her. These women are invisible to pro-life activists. Why are they not important or deserve your "talk?" They are the ones who will be mothering those children you don't want aborted. Edited February 19, 2016 by mtomm
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 41 minutes ago, Teancum said: Yea people have been saying that for 2000 years. Jesus Apostles thought it would be in their lives. Just read Paul. Even Jesus taught the end would happen in the lifetime of those he preached to. Mormonism is also a Millenial religion and its founder and founding revelations as well as their attempts to build a city of Zion contemplated a theocracy led by Jesus that would happen in their life times. Yet still we wait.....and wait.....and wait.... D&C 45:26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth. 1
mtomm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 In the meantime we get to live in the real world.
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 4 hours ago, rpn said: I think you are misstating the lds position. There is nothing in what the Church has written that gives permission for abortion. It merely says that it will not take disciplinary action against members who do so in such cases. I think the reason for that is that there has been no revelation on when the spirit enters the body and becomes one with it. Even in those tough cases, it remains up to the mother (and I hope in lds homes, the father too) to determine whether the Lord is okay with a decision to abort or not, and/or whether they can bring themselves to a position to give birth, because ultimately it will be Him who judges any such decision. Church leadership has determined that in the few identified circumstances mortal men are not in a position to judge the decisions of their fellow saints. That is not the same as giving permission or approving abortion. The Church doesn't have the authority to give permission for anything. What any church can do is what is permissible under its rules. I agree that there is no revelation on when a spirit enters the body. To me that is a wise thing. All three of my children were very much wanted, and have blessed my life in more ways than I can name. But believe me if there ever came a time when an abortion was needed I wouldn't ask my Bishop for permission. 1
Calm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: But believe me if there ever came a time when an abortion was needed I wouldn't ask my Bishop for permission. Would you consult with him?
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 8 minutes ago, mtomm said: In the meantime we get to live in the real world. Oh, this is so NOT the real world. This is a 2 hour blip in God's year, and the blink of an eye for our eternal nature. Getting hung up on this life and thinking we know better than God is just foolish. 1
mtomm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 31 minutes ago, Calm said: Would you consult with him? I would not. He is not me, my family, or my doctor. I would sincerely pray and do lots of my own research about people in my situation. Then I would proceed with what I knew was the right choice. 1
mtomm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Oh, this is so NOT the real world. This is a 2 hour blip in God's year, and the blink of an eye for our eternal nature. Getting hung up on this life and thinking we know better than God is just foolish. Well, I should tell all those folks I work for in the COB not to get so hung up and acting like they know stuff. Sheesh, and that long-term planning that they all bore their testimony about seems really foolish now...
strappinglad Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 An acquaintance some years ago never wanted children. She lived in a country where abortion was legal so she used it as a contraceptive . 13 abortions . I suspect that a significant portion of the 900,000 yearly abortions are of the " oops, my bad " variety.
mtomm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 3 minutes ago, strappinglad said: An acquaintance some years ago never wanted children. She lived in a country where abortion was legal so she used it as a contraceptive . 13 abortions . I suspect that a significant portion of the 900,000 yearly abortions are of the " oops, my bad " variety. I guess from your one antedote you can suspect that about the significant portion. But It doesn't mean anything, however, and it does not add to the discussion. In fact, if you'd bothered to read your own long post with all of the stats you'd know that that is not a significant portion. It was legal, she'll live with the consequences, you won't. That's the nice thing about agency. Also, unless she is a member it is unfair to hold her to the Church standard. I probably read everyday on this forum about how we need to trust God to make everything right in the end. Also, unless you heard it directly from her mouth I always doubt these stories. Women rarely speak of having one abortion, let alone 13. I would also check into the mental health and stability of someone willing to undergo any medical procedure that many times. But then maybe she is like an anti-vaccer and was willing to take the chance, who knows why people refuse to use bc. Weird. And just as a reminder women spend about 30 fertile years trying to prevent pregnancy, it's hardly surprising that more than one unintended pregnancy might occur. On the other end of the spectrum I don't think the Nadya Sulemans of the world are taking the moral high ground.
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Abortion is a topic I will not touch because I know so little of it and hope to never be in a position where it would affect me.
strappinglad Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) From my posted stats WHO HAS ABORTIONS? In 2012, unmarried women accounted for 85.3% of all abortions (CDC). Women between the ages of 20-24 obtained 32.8% of all abortions in 2012 Oops , my bad for reading between the lines. Edited February 19, 2016 by strappinglad
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 I'm too fond of the principal of teaching some correct principals and letting us govern ourselves to not agree with the OP.
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 12 hours ago, Calm said: Would you consult with him? Yes. I'm sure he would be sympathetic. But the decision is still my wife's and mine. We don't need his permission.
USU78 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 15 hours ago, mtomm said: Each one of those abortions represents a woman in distress. Each one of those abortions represents a genetically unique human organism's being expelled from this world because somebody else's distress is more important than his life. His blood has no value. What a horror. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Just now, USU78 said: Each one of those abortions represents a genetically unique human organism's being expelled from this world because somebody else's distress is more important than his life. His blood has no value. What a horror. Shedding of innocent blood. Isn't there a scripture about that somewhere? Something about being an unforgivable sin...
mtomm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: From my posted stats WHO HAS ABORTIONS? In 2012, unmarried women accounted for 85.3% of all abortions (CDC). Women between the ages of 20-24 obtained 32.8% of all abortions in 2012 Oops , my bad for reading between the lines. Your point is?
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Funny how this thread derailed to an Abortion debate, everybody here is ignoring the extreme laws in Paraguay based on the Catholic church. I guess nobody cares about Paraguay, just as long as LDS church is the main religion that influences lawmakers in Utah. Edited February 19, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
mtomm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 No one has, not one person in this conversation, has addressed the problem in Paraguay (and many other countries.) We have spent two pages condemning women who have them as murderers and reiterating the Church's stance. 1
mtomm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Each one of those abortions represents a genetically unique human organism's being expelled from this world because somebody else's distress is more important than his life. His blood has no value. What a horror. Your solution to leftover IVF embryos would be? You would support changing tax law to include a fetus as a dependent?
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Shedding of innocent blood. Isn't there a scripture about that somewhere? Something about being an unforgivable sin... The Bible uses forced abortion as a test for infidelity.
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 5 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: The Bible uses forced abortion as a test for infidelity. That's only one interpretation of it. Not everyone believes that ordeal to refer to abortion.
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) I really can't help what others believe. Numbers 5:27-28 “And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be free and shall conceive children.” Edited February 19, 2016 by thesometimesaint
Meadowchik Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Funny how this thread derailed to an Abortion debate, everybody here is ignoring the extreme laws in Paraguay based on the Catholic church. I guess nobody cares about Paraguay, just as long as LDS church is the main religion that influences lawmakers in Utah. The title is "the position of the Church on abortion." Are you saying that because one church in another country prevents abortion for a preteen through its political influence, that the LDS Church and then NO church should have political influence anywhere? If so, that sounds too narrow-minded, IMO. What a horrible world it would be if we allowed some hard cases to decide all laws. 2
Guest Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 On February 18, 2016 at 3:35 AM, TheSkepticChristian said: I am glad the LDS church "has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion". I just hope that someday our LDS church stays out of all political issues. The mission of our church is to tell us how to behave and live our own personal lives, not the lives of those that disagree. It is sad that lawmakers in some countries based their laws on religious teachings alone. The Catholic church influences lawmakers in many countries like Paraguay. In Paraguay, a pregnant 10-year-old rape victim can't get an abortion because it is against the law. Pregnant 10-year-old rape victim denied abortion in Paraguay I hope our church stays out of politics in the future, we can think for ourselves about political issues. The Church allows for abortion with rape victims...missing your point?
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