TheSkepticChristian Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 5 minutes ago, Pa Pa said: The Church allows for abortion with rape victims...missing your point? Yes, my point is that religion should stay out of politics.
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Yes, my point is that religion should stay out of politics. How about Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances?
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 6 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Yes, my point is that religion should stay out of politics.
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: SEE http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Prophecies/White_Horse_prophecy
Meadowchik Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 29 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Yes, my point is that religion should stay out of politics. How, exactly?
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 8 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: SEE http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Prophecies/White_Horse_prophecy Yes, the prophecy is maybe suspect. But Joseph also ran for President, implemented the Council of Fifty, Brigham ran Utah as close to a theocracy as he could get it. Mormonism does not go hand in hand with separation of Church and State.
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Yes, the prophecy is maybe suspect. But Joseph also ran for President, implemented the Council of Fifty, Brigham ran Utah as close to a theocracy as he could get it. Mormonism does not go hand in hand with separation of Church and State. A bit more than suspect. I'd say totally without merit. Any native born US citizen 35 years or older is entitled to run for President. Not many have made it though. For my tastes Brother Brigham was autocratic, probably for the best, as he was able to hold the Church together after the murder of Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum. Neither does Christianity. We're all supposed to be working towards the day when Christ returns as sovereign King of the whole earth.
Teancum Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 45:26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth. Yea I figured you would trot that verse out. The problem is for 2000 years various Christian sects and believers have believed Jesus was coming again in their life time. As noted even Paul and Jesus taught that the kingdom of God on earth was immanent. Passages like this are good for trying to keep people in line and not asking questions.
Jeanne Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 When religion pays taxes...that may be different..but I am tired of religion in politics.
USU78 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Yes, my point is that religion should stay out of politics. You would enforce such a rule ... how exactly?
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 minute ago, Teancum said: Yea I figured you would trot that verse out. The problem is for 2000 years various Christian sects and believers have believed Jesus was coming again in their life time. As noted even Paul and Jesus taught that the kingdom of God on earth was immanent. Passages like this are good for trying to keep people in line and not asking questions. Whether the Lord comes to see me, or I go to see him. If the results are the same I don't have a problem.
USU78 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 2 hours ago, mtomm said: Your solution to leftover IVF embryos would be? You would support changing tax law to include a fetus as a dependent? Argument from extremes. Of course those who support the wholesale extermination of the wholly dependent on the flimsiest of justification would engage in faulty logic.
Teancum Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Whether the Lord comes to see me, or I go to see him. If the results are the same I don't have a problem. You are entirely missing my point.
USU78 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 6 minutes ago, Jeanne said: When religion pays taxes...that may be different..but I am tired of religion in politics. The power to tax is the power to destroy. You want the State to have the power to destroy Churches? Really?
Jeanne Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Just now, USU78 said: The power to tax is the power to destroy. You want the State to have the power to destroy Churches? Really? I pay my property taxes..hasn't destroyed me yet...
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, USU78 said: Argument from extremes. Of course those who support the wholesale extermination of the wholly dependent on the flimsiest of justification would engage in faulty logic. It is you that is claiming that at the instant of concept it is an separate independent life. 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 9 minutes ago, Jeanne said: When religion pays taxes...that may be different..but I am tired of religion in politics. Religion can't pay taxes. Do we tax people based on what they believe? What is it about the First Amendment you don't like?
USU78 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 minute ago, Jeanne said: I pay my property taxes..hasn't destroyed me yet... I'm quoting the Supreme Court. If a State may tax the United States, it could arguably destroy the United States via taxation. Same with you: the State has the power to destroy you via taxation. That the State doesn't simply means that it is a borderline logical parasite: it desires its host to continue living so that it may harvest nourishment indefinitely. And it's the same with the State: the Ist Amendment prohibits the State from destroying one church in favor of another [establishment clause] and prohibits the State from prohibiting religious exercise [until the Reconstruction SCOTUS destroyed, in part, the free exercise in order to get at Mormons, that is].
USU78 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 5 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: It is you that is claiming that at the instant of concept it is an separate independent life. Excuse me? Explain how a genetically unique human organism is not life. I never claimed it is independent. It is certainly separate: its dna does not match its female parent/incubatrix' dna.
Jeanne Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Religion can't pay taxes. Do we tax people based on what they believe? What is it about the First Amendment you don't like? It was my understanding that churches don't have to pay taxes on land etc. So..I figure they have a voice in congregations. (which already influences their cause) should stay out of legislation and let people think for themselves. That way..they have their say..but not touching other people in the religious beliefs and state government.
Jeanne Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 7 minutes ago, USU78 said: I'm quoting the Supreme Court. If a State may tax the United States, it could arguably destroy the United States via taxation. Same with you: the State has the power to destroy you via taxation. That the State doesn't simply means that it is a borderline logical parasite: it desires its host to continue living so that it may harvest nourishment indefinitely. And it's the same with the State: the Ist Amendment prohibits the State from destroying one church in favor of another [establishment clause] and prohibits the State from prohibiting religious exercise [until the Reconstruction SCOTUS destroyed, in part, the free exercise in order to get at Mormons, that is]. I see ;your point.
Calm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 23 minutes ago, Jeanne said: When religion pays taxes...that may be different..but I am tired of religion in politics. I wonder how much longer it would have taken the civil rights movement to gain momentum if the churches that were involved had stayed out of it. 1
USU78 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 minute ago, Calm said: I wonder how much longer it would have taken the civil rights movement to gain momentum if the churches that were involved had stayed out of it. It was the dissenting protestant Churches in Britain and the US that pushed the abolition of slavery, as well. Glory, glory hallelujah.
Calm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Quote It was the first trade union in a Warsaw Pact country that was not controlled by a communist party. Its membership reached 9.5 million members before its September 1981 Congress (when it reached 10 million),[2][3] which constituted one third of the total working-age population of Poland.[4] In the 1980s, Solidarity was a broad anti-bureaucratic social movement, using the methods of civil resistance to advance the causes of workers' rights and social change.[5] The government attempted to destroy the union by imposing martial law in Poland, which lasted from December 1981 to July 1983 and was followed by several years of political repression, but in the end it was forced to negotiate with Solidarity.... The round table talks between the government and the Solidarity-led opposition led to semi-free elections in 1989. By the end of August, a Solidarity-led coalition government was formed.... In Sollicitudo rei socialis, a major document of Catholic Social Teaching, Pope John Paul II identifies the concept of solidarity with the poor and marginalized as a constitutive element of the Gospel and human participation in the common good. The Roman Catholic Church, under the leadership of Pope John Paul II, was a very powerful supporter of the union and was greatly responsible for its success. Lech Wałęsa, who himself publicly displayed Catholic piety, confirmed the Pope's influence, saying: The Holy Father, through his meetings, demonstrated how numerous we were. He told us not to be afraid.[24] In addition, the priest Jerzy Popiełuszko, who regularly gave sermons to the striking workers, was eventually killed by the Communist regime for his association with Solidarity. Polish workers themselves were closely associated with the Church, which can be seen in the photographs taken during strikes in the 1980s. On the walls of several factories, portraits of the Virgin Mary or John Paul II were visible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_(Polish_trade_union)#Catholic_social_teaching 2
Jeanne Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 10 minutes ago, Calm said: I wonder how much longer it would have taken the civil rights movement to gain momentum if the churches that were involved had stayed out of it. Good point Calm..but surely that was all churches. It seems like all we get in Utah is the LDS pov. Not always..but most of the time.
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