The position of the Church on Abortion

[Meadowchik]

13 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

No; that is your religious belief. Living  indisputable; Human being debatable. Many other religions, including Christian ones, have differing beliefs concerning abortion.

No it is independent from my religious beliefs.

Living...check.

Human...check.

Being...check.

[thesometimesaint]

13 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

No it is independent from my religious beliefs.

Living...check.

Human...check.

Being...check.

No one is doubting that. But does this meet that qualification?

[TheSkepticChristian]

19 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

No it is independent from my religious beliefs.

Good! keep your personal religious beliefs out of politics. I am proud of you!

However, I am not happy that our church gets involved in politics.

[thesometimesaint]

4 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Good! keep your personal religious beliefs out of politics. I am proud of you!

However, I am not happy that our church gets involved in politics.

When did I give up my First Amendment rights?

When did the Church give up their First Amendment rights?

[TheSkepticChristian]

4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

When did I give up my First Amendment rights?

When did the Church give up their First Amendment rights?

because our church is tax-exempt? I am not saying our church is disobeying the IRS requirements, but I still feel our church (as an institution) should stay out of politics.

The Church is not a person, so how does it have First Amendments rights?

[JLHPROF]

39 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

However, I am not happy that our church gets involved in politics.

You also don't like religion encroaching on science.

You seem to want to keep religion in its own limited little box where it only impacts one aspect of life.
That is not the reality of the gospel though.  Every aspect of my life is based around my religious beliefs - my understanding of the world, my political views, my family, my job, everything.
I don't believe religion should be compartmentalized separately from everything else in life.  It is the only thing that is a permanent part of our reality.

[thesometimesaint]

27 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

because our church is tax-exempt? I am not saying our church is disobeying the IRS requirements, but I still feel our church (as an institution) should stay out of politics.

The Church is not a person, so how does it have First Amendments rights?

It is like all non-profits. Then what is your complaint that you disagree with a group of people peaceably assembling and petitioning their government for a redress of grievances?

Because the Constitution doesn't apply to just individuals. It apples to groups of peaceful people too.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

That is pretty ironic as both abortion and suicide lead to death and are non-reversible decisions. Suicide ends free will.

Yes, it is.  Life's decisions can be made to look absurd, horrific and so very, very contradictory because life is very, very complicated and confusing.

Reducing it to soundbites for one issue will never solve the problems.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

What mother wouldn't give up her life that her child might live? I guess abut a million a year in the US. 

If I had become pregnant somehow in the last 13 years and it was a choice between me and my child, I would not give up my life because my older daughter has needed me too much.  I would be essentially sacrificing her life along with my own and not just emotionally, it would have imo pushed her past the point of no return and she might have chosen suicide.

In fact one of the reasons why I didn't get pregnant in the last 13 years was because my daughter needed my full attention or rather my ability to drop everything else and be there for her and her only.  If I had gotten pregnant, it would have been an error of birth control, so there are a number of arguments against abortion that wouldn't have worked for my situation.

Mothers often leave behind children who are scarred for life when they die.  And the child that lives because their mother dies doesn't always approve of that choice from the few cases I've seen, especially if that means he or she grows up without a mother.

 I am not suggesting this makes abortion alright, I just don't think anyone will convince another of the rightness and empathy of their position by not looking at it in more nuanced ways.  Condemning someone with sound bites will just cause people to ignore you and think the other cause must be stronger if that is all you have.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Calm

[TheSkepticChristian]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

It is like all non-profits. Then what is your complaint that you disagree with a group of people peaceably assembling and petitioning their government for a redress of grievances?

Because the Constitution doesn't apply to just individuals. It apples to groups of peaceful people too.

Listen, of course people and churches have their rights, but in my opinion it doesn't mean it is the right to point to religion during political debates.

This thread is about what could go wrong when religion influences lawmakers!

Edited February 21, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[Russell C McGregor]

Just now, TheSkepticChristian said:

Listen, of course people and churches have their rights, but in my opinion it doesn't mean it is the right to point to religion during political debates.

This thread is about what could go wrong when religion influences lawmakers!

Guess what?

An exclamation mark is not an argument!

And you have clearly not thought your argument through!

The Soviet Union was run by socialists! It didn't turn out well!

By your logic, that means socialists should stay out of political debates!

So there!

 

[mtomm]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If I had become pregnant somehow in the last 13 years and it was a choice between me and my child, I would not give up my life because my older daughter has needed me too much.  I would be essentially sacrificing her life along with my own and not just emotionally, it would have imo pushed her past the point of no return and she might have chosen suicide.

In fact one of the reasons why I didn't get pregnant in the last 13 years was because my daughter needed my full attention or rather my ability to drop everything else and be there for her and her only.  If I had gotten pregnant, it would have been an error of birth control, so there are a number of arguments against abortion that wouldn't have worked for my situation.

Mothers often leave behind children who are scarred for life when they die.  And the child that lives because their mother dies doesn't always approve of that choice from the few cases I've seen, especially if that means he or she grows up without a mother.

 I am not suggesting this makes abortion alright, I just don't think anyone will convince another of the rightness and empathy of their position by not looking at it in more nuanced ways.  Condemning someone with sound bites will just cause people to ignore you and think the other cause must be stronger if that is all you have.

So you just wanted to have sex without any of the consequences?

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, mtomm said:

So you just wanted to have sex without any of the consequences?

You bet, I am a sex maniac!  Damn the consequences!  

I was so worried about it, I used double measures of birth control.  Worked for me, but I have known a few women who, though very conscientious, would still get pregnant (there are failure rates which means there are failures and not from just forgetting to use it).  One so fertile she got pregnant a couple of times in spite of her determined efforts not to (I can't remember if it was birth control pills didn't actually stop her cycle enough https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/you-wont-get-pregnant-if-you-use-the-pill-right-wrong/2013/07/15/4ceab94a-dcf9-11e2-85de-c03ca84cb4ef_story.html or whether it was having her tubes tied and then them growing back, another rare---13 out of 1000---but real occurrence).  Her health was breaking down.  They were relatively young so abstinence would have meant going for decades until menopause.  I can't remember if they decided on the last pregnancy whether to terminate or not given the impact on her health and the fact they were having problems trying to manage the family they had already and were committed to being good parents to.   I think they finally chose a vasectomy but they were still condemned by some church members for even doing that.

A one size fits all approach does not work and thankfully the Church does not hold one.

[mtomm]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

You bet, I am a sex maniac!  Damn the consequences!  

I was so worried about it, I used double measures of birth control.  Worked for me, but I have known a few women who, though very conscientious, would still get pregnant (there are failure rates which means there are failures and not from just forgetting to use it).  One so fertile she got pregnant a couple of times in spite of her determined efforts not to (I can't remember if it was birth control pills didn't actually stop her cycle enough https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/you-wont-get-pregnant-if-you-use-the-pill-right-wrong/2013/07/15/4ceab94a-dcf9-11e2-85de-c03ca84cb4ef_story.html or whether it was having her tubes tied and then them growing back, another rare---13 out of 1000---but real occurrence).  Her health was breaking down.  They were relatively young so abstinence would have meant going for decades until menopause.  I can't remember if they decided on the last pregnancy whether to terminate or not given the impact on her health and the fact they were having problems trying to manage the family they had already and were committed to being good parents to.   I think they finally chose a vasectomy but they were still condemned by some church members for even doing that.

A one size fits all approach does not work and thankfully the Church does not hold one.

According to almost everyone who has posted in this thread this woman and her husband should have chosen abstinence. Vasectomies aren't 100% either.  I can see why they were chagrined at the vasectomy... She should be willing to die for a child if she were truly a good mother.

 

 

[Sleeper Cell]

7 hours ago, mtomm said:

Declaring a fetus as a living human being is a slippery slope with some serious consequences.

See Paraguay.  

Declaring some human beings as less than human is also a slippery slope, that has arguably had even more serious consequences.

[Russell C McGregor]

7 hours ago, mtomm said:

Declaring a fetus as a living human being is a slippery slope with some serious consequences.

See Paraguay.  

This is a perfect example of the "slippery slope" fallacy.

Not every "slippery slope" argument is a fallacy, BTW. But this one is.

The consequences aren't as important as the question: is it true?

And it turns out that it is.

 

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, mtomm said:

Declaring a fetus as a living human being is a slippery slope with some serious consequences.

See Paraguay.  

It's alive. Are you saying a human fetus is not a human? There are serious consequences to abortion.

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Yes, it is.  Life's decisions can be made to look absurd, horrific and so very, very contradictory because life is very, very complicated and confusing.

Reducing it to soundbites for one issue will never solve the problems.

You know what, you guys can carry on your discussion without me. I'm a dyslexic typist so all of my posts are sound bytes. I'm 62 years old and will never have an abortion question in my family. I have no children except a 16 year old we adopted illegally and he is dead. I'm not here to judge anybody's actions but no matter how you slice it, cover it with flowers, dress it up in despair or statistics it is still killing a living human being.

[mtomm]

1 hour ago, Russell C McGregor said:

This is a perfect example of the "slippery slope" fallacy.

Not every "slippery slope" argument is a fallacy, BTW. But this one is.

The consequences aren't as important as the question: is it true?

And it turns out that it is.

 

Oh. I wasn't saying that Paraguay was my example of a slippery slope.  I can see how you would think that though.  

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

You know what, you guys can carry on your discussion without me. I'm a dyslexic typist so all of my posts are sound bytes. I'm 62 years old and will never have an abortion question in my family. I have no children except a 16 year old we adopted illegally and he is dead. I'm not here to judge anybody's actions but no matter how you slice it, cover it with flowers, dress it up in despair or statistics it is still killing a living human being.

I am so sorry about the loss of your son.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

 I'm a dyslexic typist so all of my posts are sound bytes. 

That can be a big problem.  Reasonable that you go for short posts, Rod.  I don't have any problem with the vast majority of them and based on what you have said in other places, I don't think you think in sound bites.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Calm