rodheadlee Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 17 hours ago, mtomm said: If we really believe in this most beautiful afterlife why the angst over abortion? It doesn't even matter if they are human yet. What happens to children who die through miscarriage? And as far as that mother is concerned it seems many don't want to talk about her. These women are invisible to pro-life activists. Why are they not important or deserve your "talk?" They are the ones who will be mothering those children you don't want aborted. The angst over abortion includes the mother. My sister has never been the same since she had an abortion 38 years ago. She still regrets it and has remained childless. According to my wife the majority of the women she has known that got an abortion regretted it after the fact. At first they thought they made the right decision then as time went by they regretted having aborted their child. It can be pretty tough going through life knowing you willingly killed your own child. Having a miscarriage doesn't include free will so it's a whole different thing.
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 9 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: The angst over abortion includes the mother. My sister has never been the same since she had an abortion 38 years ago. She still regrets it and has remained childless. According to my wife the majority of the women she has known that got an abortion regretted it after the fact. At first they thought they made the right decision then as time went by they regretted having aborted their child. It can be pretty tough going through life knowing you willingly killed your own child. Having a miscarriage doesn't include free will so it's a whole different thing. The statistic don't bear your sister up.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Mormonism does not go hand in hand with separation of Church and State. If true, too bad! Most Americans are not Mormon. So you think we should quote the book of Mormon when debating Muslims, Atheists, and Jews about foreign policy? You think we should say "I think it should become a federal law because my religion says so"? Edited February 19, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 4 hours ago, mtomm said: No one has, not one person in this conversation, has addressed the problem in Paraguay (and many other countries.) We have spent two pages condemning women who have them as murderers and reiterating the Church's stance. and still no one, I wonder why I waste my time here
mtomm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Argument from extremes. Of course those who support the wholesale extermination of the wholly dependent on the flimsiest of justification would engage in faulty logic. Pro-choice advocates understand that life is full of nuances. It's the pro-life advocates that argue the extreme. Our church's position still allows me a choice. Extremists want to make that decision for me. And IVF embryos are not an extreme. They are as common as abortion. "In storage facilities across the nation, hundreds of thousands of frozen embryos — perhaps a million — are preserved in silver tanks of liquid nitrogen." http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/18/us/embryos-egg-donors-difficult-issues.html?referer= What do the extremists tell these women to do with their genetically unique human organism?
Traela Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 19 hours ago, mtomm said: If we really believe in this most beautiful afterlife why the angst over abortion? It doesn't even matter if they are human yet. What happens to children who die through miscarriage? And as far as that mother is concerned it seems many don't want to talk about her. These women are invisible to pro-life activists. Why are they not important or deserve your "talk?" They are the ones who will be mothering those children you don't want aborted. Why do pro-choicers always pretend that the only options for an unwanted pregnancy is abortion or raising the child herself? Many, if not most, pro-lifers also tend to be strongly pro-adoption. And prospective adoptive parents often have to wait years. 3
mtomm Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Traela said: Why do pro-choicers always pretend that the only options for an unwanted pregnancy is abortion or raising the child herself? Many, if not most, pro-lifers also tend to be strongly pro-adoption. And prospective adoptive parents often have to wait years. Please show me where I said that adoption was not an option? Tell me how the words pro choice takes away any of the woman's options? Now tell me how that's works for pro-lifers? And please explain how giving up a baby for adoption is less traumatic than abortion? And who gets to decide which is better for her? These women are more than just an unwanted pregnancy. And they are more than just an avenue for infertile couples to adopt. Edited February 20, 2016 by mtomm
mtomm Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: The statistic don't bear your sister up. True. Not by a long shot. But we all like to think that our own experience is exactly what everyone else experiences.
Meadowchik Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 IMO, if equality for one person requires the subjugation of rights of another living human being, something is wrong. As women, we have power to give life and to take it away. Just like every other person with power over another, we must decide to protect the innocent when they are in our care. 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 9 hours ago, Meadowchik said: IMO, if equality for one person requires the subjugation of rights of another living human being, something is wrong. As women, we have power to give life and to take it away. Just like every other person with power over another, we must decide to protect the innocent when they are in our care. Assuming for a second that the not yet born are fully functional human beings at what point does their "rights" exceed the rights of the mother?
Meadowchik Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 57 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Assuming for a second that the not yet born are fully functional human beings at what point does their "rights" exceed the rights of the mother? Who says they ever exceed? Like other situations, police, soldiers, and firefighters aren't necessarily required to die for others, but they are required to protect. I don't believe any woman should be forced to die for her unborn child, although some may choose to do so. 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Just now, Meadowchik said: Who says they ever exceed? Like other situations, police, soldiers, and firefighters aren't necessarily required to die for others, but they are required to protect. I don't believe any woman should be forced to die for her unborn child, although some may choose to do so. A pregnant woman is put in jail for a serious crime. If her unborn child has all the rights as she does why is it in jail? That's her choice, and the Church holds it permissible. The forced birth side doesn't want her to have a choice.
Meadowchik Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said: A pregnant woman is put in jail for a serious crime. If her unborn child has all the rights as she does why is it in jail? That's her choice, and the Church holds it permissible. The forced birth side doesn't want her to have a choice. How bizarre. Are you trying to compare jail for the baby to pregnancy for the mother? 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: How bizarre. Are you trying to compare jail for the baby to pregnancy for the mother? No just the opposite. The woman is pregnant she commits a crime. Did her unborn child commit the crime? If not why is it in jail?
Meadowchik Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 19 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: No just the opposite. The woman is pregnant she commits a crime. Did her unborn child commit the crime? If not why is it in jail? How silly. We all know that an unborn child is better off in his mother in jail than not in his mother's womb. 2
rodheadlee Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 21 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: The statistic don't bear your sister up. You conveniently left out the rest of the women in my anecdotal survey, which amounts to 8 including my sister. Which still just makes it an anecdotal survey. It doesn't surprise me the stats don't bear this up, many people only have concern for themselves. It's the way of the world. The saying "If it feels good, do it" came out of my generation and it has evolved into the selfie generation.who don't want to have to "view the pain, suffering and despair of the homeless" to quote Justin Keller on his blog. He was roundly applauded by the majority of commenters, regardless of sex or age.. It would not surprise me at all that these people think it's perfectly ok to kill your unborn child as a method of birth control. I'm pretty certain that those who listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit are vastly outnumbered by those who don't, regardless of generation.
mtomm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Women by a huge majority do not regret their abortion. Did your survey include the number of women who regret placing their child for adoption? It isn't all wonderful and pretty either. Both for the birth mother and the adopted child: Impacts of Adoption Long Term Issues for the Adopted Child My point isn't that abortion is a better choice. But let's not pretend that one choice is all happy and the others are all bad. We need to step back and let those who are in the situation decide. And if there are so many wonderful childless couples waiting and willing to adopt please explain this: Recent statistics suggest that 129,000 children in the foster care system are legally free for adoption. 1
strappinglad Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 39 minutes ago, mtomm said: Recent statistics suggest that 129,000 children in the foster care system are legally free for adoption. Beyond this, there are not enough couples wanting to adopt new babies let alone foster children over age 3. Many foster children come with serious baggage such as FAS or drug effects or abusive parenting etc. and very special parenting skills are needed to cope with them. There are no simple solutions to the abortion problem aside from unmarried women and men refusing to have carnal relations .That particular tube of toothpaste has long ago been vacated. Can society bring up the next generation of youth to wait? Will the Pope convert to Islam?
rodheadlee Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 1 hour ago, mtomm said: Women by a huge majority do not regret their abortion. Did your survey include the number of women who regret placing their child for adoption? It isn't all wonderful and pretty either. Both for the birth mother and the adopted child: Impacts of Adoption Long Term Issues for the Adopted Child My point isn't that abortion is a better choice. But let's not pretend that one choice is all happy and the others are all bad. We need to step back and let those who are in the situation decide. And if there are so many wonderful childless couples waiting and willing to adopt please explain this: Recent statistics suggest that 129,000 children in the foster care system are legally free for adoption. It's a barbaric method of birth control, It denies free will to the unborn child, it's murder.
mtomm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 34 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Beyond this, there are not enough couples wanting to adopt new babies let alone foster children over age 3. Many foster children come with serious baggage such as FAS or drug effects or abusive parenting etc. and very special parenting skills are needed to cope with them. There are no simple solutions to the abortion problem aside from unmarried women and men refusing to have carnal relations .That particular tube of toothpaste has long ago been vacated. Can society bring up the next generation of youth to wait? Will the Pope convert to Islam? And rodheadlee says abortion is barbaric. Don't just blame unmarried people though, plenty of married folks have unwanted pregnancies.
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, mtomm said: And rodheadlee says abortion is barbaric. It's not just barbaric, it's shedding of the most innocent kind of blood. Pure evil. 1
Calm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: It denies free will to the unborn child A child has no choice in whether to be born or not as far as we know and they certainly don't have it for a significant part of their early life and in many cases of FAS, not much as an adult either...as least after the whole plan of salvation meeting. I assume you are not that comfortable with suicide, which would seem to be a free will choice. Pardon me if you are, but it seems to me when we step in to prevent suicide we are removing someone's agency to choose death, are we not? 1
mtomm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: It's not just barbaric, it's shedding of the most innocent kind of blood. Pure evil. Except... Sometimes it's not. I realize this discussion is not changing minds but I really appreciate those that can move beyond rhetoric and discuss a rather complex subject. Even the Church does not view this as a black and white topic. Sorry , Sceptic, I'm sure I'm helping the derail. Edited February 21, 2016 by mtomm 1
Russell C McGregor Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 12 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: A pregnant woman is put in jail for a serious crime. If her unborn child has all the rights as she does why is it in jail?en The unborn's environment remains unaltered by her mother's incarceration. Your analogy is rather egregiously silly. 12 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: That's her choice, and the Church holds it permissible. The forced birth side doesn't want her to have a choice. What "forced birth side" is that? When you choose the very first step on the road You also choose the last... The birth is the consequence of the mother's choices. Oh, now you don't like the consequences? You should have thought about that earlier. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 On 2/19/2016 at 0:42 PM, mtomm said: Pro-choice advocates understand that life is full of nuances. It's the pro-life advocates that argue the extreme. And yet -- all those "nuances" ultimately end up in the same one-line slogan. "A woman's body! A woman's right to choose!" As if the unborn simply doesn't enter into the equation. 1
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