VideoGameJunkie Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, Ahab said: Okay. That's it. I'm going to have my attorney contact your attorney over this blatant misrepresentation of what true TBMs like me are saying. We do not object to the idea that we will make worlds and a lot of other neat stuff. We just object to people calling it "our own" as if it will all belong to each of us, individually, and nobody else. Which is what it sounds like people are saying when they tell us it will be... in their words, "your own" planet. Such an idea seems to leave our Father and our Lord out of the picture, as if all our stuff won't also be their stuff too. Even our children will be their children, and we will be theirs too. It will all belong to them as well as ourselves as we give and share everything we have with them. All of our time, and talents, and all we create. Everything! Bearing a false witness is a bad thing, ya know. Prepare to hear from my attorney! So if they're our spirit children they'll still be praying to our Heavenly Father?
consiglieri Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 47 minutes ago, The Nehor said: To be honest though if there was a way to do it I would restrict that teaching to seasoned members of the church but there isn't so oh well. Why can't we just tell the truth to everybody? To those outside the Church as well as those inside the Church? To those who are seasoned members as well as to those who are unseasoned members? Joseph Smith didn't address his King Follett Discourse to only members; or only seasoned members. He shouted it at the top of his lungs outdoors. I think there is a lesson in there for us. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 6 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I don't think I could come up with a more offensive description of Exaltation than this Jack Chick type of cartoon tract. It is not doctrine; it is not Mormonism; it is not the gospel. Thank you for helping me put my finger on something! From my mission days, I know what it's like to read a Chick tract, but this thread (and so many similar ones lately) has given me the experience of trying to have a discussion with a living, breathing Chick tract.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 Is thinking when you're exalted that you'll become a god or godess a delusion of grandeur? I don't feel it is. I feel it's looking forward to our Devine potential.
consiglieri Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: That is not an argument from silence it is recognition that if it did happen there would be silence. I can argue on the same basis the NT apostles also had the secret blueprints to a death star. Poster thread banned for repeated insults
RevTestament Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Ahab said: Okay. That's it. I'm going to have my attorney contact your attorney over this blatant misrepresentation of what true TBMs like me are saying. We do not object to the idea that we will make worlds and a lot of other neat stuff. We just object to people calling it "our own" as if it will all belong to each of us, individually, and nobody else. Which is what it sounds like people are saying when they tell us it will be... in their words, "your own" planet. Such an idea seems to leave our Father and our Lord out of the picture, as if all our stuff won't also be their stuff too. Even our children will be their children, and we will be theirs too. It will all belong to them as well as ourselves as we give and share everything we have with them. All of our time, and talents, and all we create. Everything! Bearing a false witness is a bad thing, ya know. Prepare to hear from my attorney! My attorney is Jesus Christ - who had His "own" planet.... or maybe rules it with His Father.... or something like that. But His other client He represents says He has the "holy mountains" of the world. So maybe my attorney is not allowed to run off on His own if He is going to inherit the mountains of His highest client. Edited January 20, 2016 by RevTestament
The Nehor Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 1 hour ago, omni said: Hmmm, I think the Scientologists tried something similar. I know, getting people to keep their happens shut is almost impossible.
Sanpitch Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Why can't someone who is a worthy priesthood holder just pray and get some answers to the questions that are confusing many, such as the afterlife having a personal planet and the reasons for polygamy and etc. That should be so simple. And then let us know your answers. It shouldn't be all that secretive.
Ahab Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Sanpitch said: Why can't someone who is a worthy priesthood holder just pray and get some answers to the questions that are confusing many, such as the afterlife having a personal planet and the reasons for polygamy and etc. That should be so simple. And then let us know your answers. It shouldn't be all that secretive. I have and I have. Didn't you get my memos?
JLHPROF Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Sanpitch said: Why can't someone who is a worthy priesthood holder just pray and get some answers to the questions that are confusing many, such as the afterlife having a personal planet and the reasons for polygamy and etc. That should be so simple. And then let us know your answers. It shouldn't be all that secretive. Yes. Much better to live by knowledge rather than faith. Not. Besides, answers to all these "questions" were already revealed to God's prophets. We just aren't satisfied and want more revelation, forgetting what Joseph taught us: We never inquire at the hand of God for Special revelation only in case of their being no previous revelation to suit the case - TPJS 22 The quotes that answer the questions of polygamy and exaltation are frequently provided. In fact I personally think EVERY question of Mormonism has been answered at one time or another. And then most answers are rejected by members who consider them speculative, doubters who want more proof, and antis who consider them false. It's a no win for God when he's already answered and people refuse to listen. Why should he answer again?
Calm Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: It is SO interesting that we have so many members arguing that we don't become Gods like our Father in Heaven (and make worlds) Who is saying this? What I am hearing from most believers in this thread is that we don't have sole title of possession of those worlds and that it is likely based on scriptures and teachings that we work as a team in making worlds. If you can point to a believer saying we won't become like our Father in Heaven, please do. Also that if exalted, we won't participate at all in the creation of worlds or "make worlds" if you prefer. 1
Calm Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: Yeah it's of no appeal to me either. I question whether God really enjoys it. Quote Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. Since God is the ultimate model of mankind, it would seem likely if this scripture is true that he has great joy. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: we have so many members arguing that we don't become Gods like our Father in Heaven (and make worlds) 6 minutes ago, Calm said: Who is saying this? What I am hearing from most believers in this thread is that we don't have sole title of possession of those worlds and that it is likely based on scriptures and teachings that we work as a team in making worlds. If you can point to a believer saying we won't become like our Father in Heaven, please do. Also that if exalted, we won't participate at all in the creation of worlds or "make worlds" if you prefer. Perhaps that is so, but in the denials of the "own little planet" caricature, there is conflict being created against the true doctrine of our becoming God's who oversee creations and populate worlds.
Calm Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Perhaps that is so, but in the denials of the "own little planet" caricature, there is conflict being created against the true doctrine of our becoming God's who oversee creations and populate worlds. Don't see it that way.
Stargazer Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 5 hours ago, MorningStar said: Ditto. Women here love to have babies even though we risk our lives and go through all sorts of misery. Why wouldn't we enjoy having spirit babies when there's no pain involved anymore? I'm sad I can experience the miracle of having a baby only five times. Nothing compares to it. Wow, you made me cry! It was a miracle watching, being present at the birth of four of my five, and I cried every time! My dear sweet wife pulled it off ten times! And would have done it again except for nature finally catching up with her. It is beyond compare. 2
RevTestament Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Perhaps that is so, but in the denials of the "own little planet" caricature, there is conflict being created against the true doctrine of our becoming God's who oversee creations and populate worlds. 5 minutes ago, Calm said: Don't see it that way. Nor do I. And not that I doubt you JLHPROF - Indeed I find your analysis of what is a reliable revelation as being essentially the same as mine - which I have found to be quite rare. But maybe you can help me out on who revealed this as a direct revelation from God in so many words?
Bobbieaware Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 20 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Nor do I. And not that I doubt you JLHPROF - Indeed I find your analysis of what is a reliable revelation as being essentially the same as mine - which I have found to be quite rare. But maybe you can help me out on who revealed this as a direct revelation from God in so many words? If I rightly understand your question, start with D&C 132 and the King Follett discourse. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 35 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Perhaps that is so, but in the denials of the "own little planet" caricature, there is conflict being created against the true doctrine of our becoming God's who oversee creations and populate worlds. Only if you let the Chick tract posters in this thread shape your perception. Not one 'TBM' has argued against the promises of exaltation. Go back and look. 2
RevTestament Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 17 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: If I rightly understand your question, start with D&C 132 and the King Follett discourse. I am familiar with these, and I respectfully submit that they do not say that we will each inherit our own worlds and populate them with our spirit babies... Look at that King Follett discourse. Joseph Smith finally closed out the loop on it. He says that if spirits have no end then they have no beginning. There is no such thing as having our own spirit babies... because all spirits already exist. Yes, Jesus for instance will have his "own" spirit children...us...when we call Him our Eternal Father, but that is for the regeneration.... Thanks for bringing it up.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 5 hours ago, MorningStar said: I'm sad I can experience the miracle of having a baby only five times. Nothing compares to it. I was born to my parents late in their lives and many years after the doctor had told them it was too risky to have any more children. Mercifully, I was able to travel home to be with my mother for four weeks right before she passed away. One night was particularly difficult, and we spent much of it awake together in less-than-ideal circumstances. To pass the time, I asked mum, 'Do you remember when I was small enough that I could fit in your arms?' Immediately her eyes brightened, and she sat upright and said, 'Oh yes! I wanted you so much, and then I had you, and it seemed like such a miracle'. As if that wasn't enough, she then looked intently down at me (I was sitting on the floor) and said, 'Being your mother was the happiest thing I have done in my entire life'. Then she added, with a sigh of resignation, 'I never got to have enough children'. I was the very last of five, and she'd had roughly that many miscarriages. God bless righteous mothers! 3
Bobbieaware Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 25 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I am familiar with these, and I respectfully submit that they do not say that we will each inherit our own worlds and populate them with our spirit babies... Look at that King Follett discourse. Joseph Smith finally closed out the loop on it. He says that if spirits have no end then they have no beginning. There is no such thing as having our own spirit babies... because all spirits already exist. Yes, Jesus for instance will have his "own" spirit children...us...when we call Him our Eternal Father, but that is for the regeneration.... Thanks for bringing it up. I referenced the King Follett discourse to support the LDS teaching that men can become like God and that God was once a man; I referenced D&C 132 to prove exalted husbands and wives will have children. So you don't believe the basic LDS doctrine that God the Father is the father of our spirits (not to be confused with our eternal intelligence), in the same way our earthly fathers are the fathers of your bodies of flesh? So do you also reject D&C 132? I noticed you didn't write a word about section 132. 1
RevTestament Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: I referenced the King Follett discourse to support the LDS teaching that men can become like God and that God was once a man; I referenced D&C 132 to prove exalted husbands and wives will have children. So you don't believe the basic LDS doctrine that God the Father is the father of our spirits (not to be confused with our eternal intelligence), in the same way our earthly fathers are the fathers of your bodies of flesh? So do you also reject D&C 132? I noticed you didn't write a word about section 132. Yes, God was once a man, just like Jesus, and was resurrected just like Jesus - which is why they are YWHW together. Do you know what those letters refer to in Hebrew? "Behold the nail, behold the hand." Why would the Father have that name? Why can YHWH say, "and you will see me whom you have pierced..." They are one YHWH, and they can say it because they both have been pierced. So I don't think you understand me at all. Do I believe I will have "spirit children"? why yes, but in the gospel.... not in heavenly sex or something like that. As I have already indicated all spirits that will ever be already are per the KIng Follett sermon. The temporal is the lower law and its order but teaches the higher celestial law...But thanks, and cheers P.S. " So you don't believe the basic LDS doctrine that God the Father is the father of our spirits" - that is not really "LDS doctrine" - that has been taught at least since the time of the Torah. A simple scripture search will show his Title as the Father of spirits.... Edited January 21, 2016 by RevTestament
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Yes, God was once a man, just like Jesus, and was resurrected just like Jesus - which is why they are YWHW together. Do you know what those letters refer to in Hebrew? "Behold the nail, behold the hand." Why would the Father have that name? Why can YHWH say, "and you will see me whom you have pierced..." They are one YHWH, and they can say it because they both have been pierced. So I don't think you understand me at all. Do I believe I will have "spirit children"? why yes, but in the gospel.... not in heavenly sex or something like that. As I have already indicated all spirits that will ever be already are per the KIng Follett sermon. The temporal is the lower law and its order but teaches the higher celestial law...But thanks, and cheers P.S. " So you don't believe the basic LDS doctrine that God the Father is the father of our spirits" - that is not really "LDS doctrine" - that has been taught at least since the time of the Torah. A simple scripture search will show his Title as the Father of spirits.... How are spirit children created or formed if not through procreation like we do on earth? Why be resurrected with all our body parts if we'll never need to use them again, since there probably won't be a need to go to the bathroom in heaven or if procreation of spirit children is just taking existing intelligences and forming spirits?
MorningStar Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Stargazer said: Wow, you made me cry! It was a miracle watching, being present at the birth of four of my five, and I cried every time! My dear sweet wife pulled it off ten times! And would have done it again except for nature finally catching up with her. It is beyond compare. Thank you, Stargazer. It really is an amazing thing to go through. You don't know how much you can love another human being until you become a mother. I feel like I went to Hell and back for each of my kids. During the most difficult moments of my pregnancies, I wondered how on earth I could ever go through this again, but once they're here, I would gladly go through it again. I endured morning sickness with my first, various aches and pains, troubling heart symptoms, trips to the ER, pre-term labor due to an infection I had for months, and then a week long labor due to the infection being not quite gone (long story). I was determined for the most healthy outcome for my son and even though it was dragging on so long, I told the doctor he didn't have my permission to do a C-section unless something was wrong and no, I was not accepting drugs. The Spirit told me something would go wrong if I received them. With my last one, there were many, many early contractions, our move, an awful heat wave, my car accident, and then 36 hour back labor a month after that. That pregnancy felt like forever, but my daughter is such a joy, there's no question I would go through it again. I think it's funny when people scoff at the thought of women continuing to be mothers in the eternities - as if it would be some drudgery. Something we're chained to. It's like saying how awful it would be to be a father in the eternities because you would have to go to work every day and support those children! That's making a lot of assumptions as to what it would be like to have spirit children. 2
MorningStar Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I was born to my parents late in their lives and many years after the doctor had told them it was too risky to have any more children. Mercifully, I was able to travel home to be with my mother for four weeks right before she passed away. One night was particularly difficult, and we spent much of it awake together in less-than-ideal circumstances. To pass the time, I asked mum, 'Do you remember when I was small enough that I could fit in your arms?' Immediately her eyes brightened, and she sat upright and said, 'Oh yes! I wanted you so much, and then I had you, and it seemed like such a miracle'. As if that wasn't enough, she then looked intently down at me (I was sitting on the floor) and said, 'Being your mother was the happiest thing I have done in my entire life'. Then she added, with a sigh of resignation, 'I never got to have enough children'. I was the very last of five, and she'd had roughly that many miscarriages. God bless righteous mothers! What a beautiful, sacred moment between you and your mother. Thank you for sharing! 2
Recommended Posts