So exalted Mormons don't get their own planets in the afterlife?

[Bobbieaware]

11 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

Why can't someone who is a worthy priesthood holder just pray and get some answers to the questions that are confusing many, such as the afterlife having a personal planet and the reasons for polygamy and etc.  That should be so simple.  And then let us know your answers.  It shouldn't be all that secretive.

Deleated

 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Calm]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

 Do you know what those letters refer to in Hebrew? "Behold the nail, behold the hand."

CFR please

[thesometimesaint]

7 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Not according to the New Testament.

John 21:25

.And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
 

 

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

CFR please

[VideoGameJunkie]

Since this is the topic of exalted creation, how are spirit children created or born? Do we have any idea of the process? Is it taking intelligences and throwing them in a chemistry set and bam, spirit child? Is it done like how Zeus created Pegasus in Disney's Hercules? If so, there wouldn't be need for a goddess. I assume both the exalted male and female work together.

Edited January 21, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie

[thesometimesaint]

We have no revelation on that, but I too assume it takes both male and female working together.

[Tacenda]

35 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

We have no revelation on that, but I too assume it takes both male and female working together.

Lol

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

How are spirit children created or formed if not through procreation like we do on earth? Why be resurrected with all our body parts if we'll never need to use them again, since there probably won't be a need to go to the bathroom in heaven or if procreation of spirit children is just taking existing intelligences and forming spirits?

Spirit children are not "created." Those spirits have always existed.

From the King Follet sermon(I realize there are slightly different versions):

" The mind of man is as immortal as God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their friends and relatives are separated from their bodies for only a short season; their spirits existed coequal with God, and they now exist in a place where they converse together, the same as we do on the earth. Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal and yet has a beginning? Because if a spirit has a beginning, it will have an end. That is good logic."

Orthodox Christians have assumed that God created our spirits, but they are wrong. God never says that. He created Adam's body, but then He gave it life when He blew into it - in other words He put Adam's spirit in him and he became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes teaches that when we die our bodies return from the dust from which it came, but our spirits return to God who gave it. God did not create the devil. He came into the creation after it was formed, the same He has on other worlds. So do our spirits. God created the world, and everything in it, and the heavens, and then He set the Heavenly Hosts in it, which was us waiting to come down. We were already there because our spirits are not created. Now unlike Christ we were not born with eternal life, so we don't remember our prior life, but our spirits have always been.

"Why be resurrected with all our body parts if we'll never need to use them again, since there probably won't be a need to go to the bathroom in heaven or if procreation of spirit children is just taking existing intelligences and forming spirits?" Wo.... I never said we won't use our body parts again. I really don't want all my same body parts back... JS said when He saw Jesus, He looked just like the Father. Apparently a further change took place when He ascended to the Father. I don't really know what a "spiritual body" is like, but I don't believe my next body will be just like this one...indeed I hope not. However, I do believe that we are here to learn to control our physical passions...partly because we will have those in the resurrection. Whether we will have to use the bathroom, I really don't know. I kinda hope not, but then that would eliminate the joy of eating perhaps.

I proffer the Father is the Father of spirits in the word... not in some physical way. He didn't bring our spirits into existence up in His world through some kind of physical procreative process. He is the Father of spirits in the same way that Jesus will become our Eternal Father per Isaiah 9:6. He is not going to physically birth us, except as He did on the tree. He is our brother who is going to inherit us in and adopt us as Elohim because we followed Him.

The Father did not have Jesus through any physical means. Jesus is His Son by covenant, and was begotten by the oath of the Father per scripture when He said "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." See Hebrews. As the Son of the Father, He holds an "office" or calling. It has nothing to do with physical procreation anymore than the formation of Eve/the Church from Adam's rib.

Well, hopefully I have made myself clear. Thanks for your questions. If you have any more, I will try to make myself clearer.

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Thanks JLHPROF. The Hebrew reads from right to left of course. I think your diagram makes it somewhat clear the roots of the letters are from the Paleo-Hebrew. Of course those letters are combined to make a word which I proffer has yet another meaning. But in the Paleo-Hebrew the pictographic letters each had a "meaning" and these meanings were chosen to arrange or form their words. So initially their words had a kind of "powerpoint" effect when they were written. They were written with basically a Phoenecian alphabet. It basically lost this effect when the Jews were in Babylon as they then adopted the Aramaic alphabet to form their letters. I am going into this detail for the benefit of the readers who may not know.

[Bobbieaware]

8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Yes, God was once a man, just like Jesus, and was resurrected just like Jesus - which is why they are YWHW together. Do you know what those letters refer to in Hebrew? "Behold the nail, behold the hand." Why would the Father have that name? Why can YHWH say, "and you will see me whom you have pierced..." They are one YHWH, and they can say it because they both have been pierced. So I don't think you understand me at all. Do I believe I will have "spirit children"? why yes, but in the gospel.... not in heavenly sex or something like that. As I have already indicated all spirits that will ever be already are per the KIng Follett sermon. The temporal is the lower law and its order but teaches the higher celestial law...But thanks, and cheers  

P.S. " So you don't believe the basic LDS doctrine that God the Father is the father of our spirits" - that is not really "LDS doctrine" - that has been taught at least since the time of the Torah. A simple scripture search will show his Title as the Father of spirits....

So then, am I correct when I presume you believe after the resurrection. when your spirit and body have been inseparately reunited, you will somehow become mortal once again and will, as savior, be crucified for the sins of the world on which you have become remortal?

[Storm Rider]

14 hours ago, consiglieri said:

This is the type of strained argument I often see when apologists are trying to make it look like the Church isn't speaking out of both sides of its mouth.

 

I ain't the church and I still want an example that says we get our own planet.  Either put up or shut up is the old phrase that comes to mind.  You can't have it both ways; did they say it or not.  I may have missed it and freely admit that I easily could have.  Where is it?

[Storm Rider]

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Thank you for helping me put my finger on something! From my mission days, I know what it's like to read a Chick tract, but this thread (and so many similar ones lately) has given me the experience of trying to have a discussion with a living, breathing Chick tract.

Yeah, it is not the most intelligent action around to argue with Chick.  As soon as you pin them on one they they jump to thirteen other things and each one of them is more outlandish than the last.  When there is no desire to find truth and, apparently, every desire to.....do something else.  Rational discussion is out the door and working with cartoonish characterizations become the jeu du jour.  

[Sanpitch]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes.  Much better to live by knowledge rather than faith.  Not.

Besides, answers to all these "questions" were already revealed to God's prophets.  We just aren't satisfied and want more revelation, forgetting what Joseph taught us:

• We never inquire at the hand of God for Special revelation only in case of their being no previous revelation to suit the case - TPJS 22

The quotes that answer the questions of polygamy and exaltation are frequently provided.  In fact I personally think EVERY question of Mormonism has been answered at one time or another.

And then most answers are rejected by members who consider them speculative, doubters who want more proof, and antis who consider them false.  It's a no win for God when he's already answered and people refuse to listen.  Why should he answer again?

Yes, I can see your point, live by faith and everyone have their own set of beliefs and everybody is happy.  All the answers have been provided somewhere in the records or scriptures.  End of story.

Ed to add:  If the answers are there, would you care to explain about the "own planet" issue.  There seems to be a lot of confusion and different beliefs on that question.  Maybe you have before but so have many others with different view points.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Sanpitch

[HappyJackWagon]

15 hours ago, omni said:

I hear this a lot, but it's always made me uncomfortable.  The very idea of requiring (and damning them if they don't) my children to worship me and constantly sing my praises is of no interest to me.

I don't think it's of interest to God either. He wants us to remember Him and love Him kind of how a parent would like their grown kids to call or come for a visit. How we remember and love is largely a man made religious creation.

[stemelbow]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Since God is the ultimate model of mankind, it would seem likely if this scripture is true that he has great joy.

I'd agree.  So it makes me question whether He sits up there requiring we worship Him.

[JLHPROF]

44 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Yes, I can see your point, live by faith and everyone have their own set of beliefs and everybody is happy.  All the answers have been provided somewhere in the records or scriptures.  End of story.

Ed to add:  If the answers are there, would you care to explain about the "own planet" issue.  There seems to be a lot of confusion and different beliefs on that question.  Maybe you have before but so have many others with different view points.

Well there's this:

• “Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University [then Brigham Young Academy], at Provo. President Brimhall escorted the party through one of the buildings; he wanted to reach the assembly room as soon as possible, as the students had already gathered. They were going through one of the kindergarten rooms; President Brimhall had reached the door and was about to open it and go on when President Snow said: ‘Wait a moment, President Brimhall, I want to see these children at work; what are they doing?’ Brother Brimhall replied that they were making clay spheres. ‘That is very interesting,’ the President said. ‘I want to watch them.’
• He quietly watched the children for several minutes and then lifted a little girl, perhaps six years of age, and stood her on a table. He then took the clay sphere from her hand, and, turning to Brother Brimhall, said: “‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods.’” (Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, 658–59)

But as I said even though this was taught by a prophet and published in a Church publication it isn't a canonized statement so people will insist on more revelation telling them the same thing before believing it.

[Sanpitch]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well there's this:

• “Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University [then Brigham Young Academy], at Provo. President Brimhall escorted the party through one of the buildings; he wanted to reach the assembly room as soon as possible, as the students had already gathered. They were going through one of the kindergarten rooms; President Brimhall had reached the door and was about to open it and go on when President Snow said: ‘Wait a moment, President Brimhall, I want to see these children at work; what are they doing?’ Brother Brimhall replied that they were making clay spheres. ‘That is very interesting,’ the President said. ‘I want to watch them.’
• He quietly watched the children for several minutes and then lifted a little girl, perhaps six years of age, and stood her on a table. He then took the clay sphere from her hand, and, turning to Brother Brimhall, said: “‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods.’” (Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, 658–59)

But as I said even though this was taught by a prophet and published in a Church publication it isn't a canonized statement so people will insist on more revelation telling them the same thing before believing it.

My memory is a vague on Snow but didn't he also have a revelation that polygamy should be continued after Wilford Woodruff had a revelation that polygamy had to be banned because of the interference of the federal government?

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

My memory is a vague on Snow but didn't he also have a revelation that polygamy should be continued after Wilford Woodruff had a revelation that polygamy had to be banned because of the interference of the federal government?

Not that I'm aware of.  John Taylor had one before Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto.

[Sanpitch]

17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not that I'm aware of.  John Taylor had one before Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto.

Yes, I think you're right, I got the wrong name but it still seems like the same conflict, one revelation conflicting with another one.  I had thought that Taylor's revelation was that polygamy should be continued regardless of the government threats.  It is vague to me though.

[Zakuska]

44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not that I'm aware of.  John Taylor had one before Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto.

Nothing lIke having the united voice of the bretheren to guide the church by. So if I prayed about these 2 revelations which one would give me the warm fuzzy and which one would give me the aneurysm? 

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

So then, am I correct when I presume you believe after the resurrection. when your spirit and body have been inseparately reunited, you will somehow become mortal once again and will, as savior, be crucified for the sins of the world on which you have become remortal?

When there is a new beginning, there is a new mortality for the prophets, and everybody. Until that time I presume everybody is inseparably reunited. But since they cannot advance, there is no eternal progression unless they agree to the plan. Therefore, eternal progression demands it, and everyone has a chance to continue to progress or be fixed in their save state forever. I hope that answers your concern.

Isaiah 65:17

17 ¶For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

"Every world has had an Adam and an Eve, named so simply because the first man is always called Adam and the first woman, Eve. And the oldest son has always had the privilege of being ordained, appointed and called to be the heir of the family if he does not rebel against the Father, and he is the Savior of the family. Every world that has been created has been created upon the same principle. They may vary in their varieties, yet the eternity is one: it is one eternal round. (Brigham Young," "For This Is Life Eternal," in Eldon Watson (editor), Brigham Young Addresses (1982), 2:230)

My only quibble is that I would change "oldest Son" to first born Son or Begotten Son. The temporal law of inheritance translates this way into the Word. Hence Christ and not Adam is our Savior, but He has given the keys of salvation to Adam (D&C) that His work may continue under His direction. Therefore, whoso does not believe it, shall eventually be cut off from the covenant.

President Young said there never was any world created & peopled nor never would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the savior of that world. ( Journal of Wilford Woodruff; Ms/f/115, Church Historical Department; 12 May 1867)

Through the office/calling of the First Born Son.

"Your eyes being opened, that you may see the hope of His calling and His inheritance in the saints."

The idea that Yahoshua/Jesus has always been, and will forevermore be the Son, is not scriptural. He was not the Son before He was begotten. This concept takes us back to the debate between Arius and the western bishops at the time of the Nicene Council. The Nicene Council of a minority of the bishops declared that Jesus was begotten before all ages/worlds, and if you disagreed you were anathema or excommunicated. During the Dark Ages you would have been subjected to torture to force a recantation. This is all contrary to the express scripture on point which says Jesus was begotten when another saith unto Him "Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." This oath places His begottenness on a specific day in time - not before all ages or worlds. Nor will He always be the Son, but the law says He shall be called the Eternal Father(Isaiah 9:6). So many try to do hair splitting translations here as well saying things like the power being laid on the shoulder of the Son is the Father rather than accepting what the scripture plainly says. Anyway, that is probably the best I can explain it right now.

Cheers

 

Edited January 21, 2016 by RevTestament

[Robert F. Smith]

21 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I think much of what you say goes to the frequently made observation that determining what constitutes Church doctrine is like nailing jello to the wall.

 

Yet we try.  I have taken a shot at it in several contexts.  Here is my take on Book of Mormon theologies:  “Book of Mormon Theologies: A Thumbnail Sketch,” lecture delivered at the September 2012 annual meeting of the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology (SMPT), at Utah State University, Logan, Utah, online at https://www.scribd.com/doc/251781864/BOOK-OF-MORMON-THEOLOGIES-A-THUMBNAIL-SKETCH .

[Robert F. Smith]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They are not distancing themselves from that. It is all over our curriculum including in our beginner Sunday School class. We do object to our enemies making a caricature out of it to attempt to minimize it or make it sound ridiculous. Do not get me wrong. It does sound ridiculous but our version makes it seem like supreme arrogance. That of our enemies makes us sound like children who just watched Star Wars for the first time and want a lightsaber and a planet. Admittedly I am going to build a lightsaber at some point but that is neither here nor ther.

To be honest though if there was a way to do it I would restrict that teaching to seasoned members of the church but there isn't so oh well.

Sage observations.

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I just want the Church to tell the truth.

 

 

[Jeanne]

7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Spirit children are not "created." Those spirits have always existed.

From the King Follet sermon(I realize there are slightly different versions):

" The mind of man is as immortal as God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their friends and relatives are separated from their bodies for only a short season; their spirits existed coequal with God, and they now exist in a place where they converse together, the same as we do on the earth. Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal and yet has a beginning? Because if a spirit has a beginning, it will have an end. That is good logic."

Orthodox Christians have assumed that God created our spirits, but they are wrong. God never says that. He created Adam's body, but then He gave it life when He blew into it - in other words He put Adam's spirit in him and he became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes teaches that when we die our bodies return from the dust from which it came, but our spirits return to God who gave it. God did not create the devil. He came into the creation after it was formed, the same He has on other worlds. So do our spirits. God created the world, and everything in it, and the heavens, and then He set the Heavenly Hosts in it, which was us waiting to come down. We were already there because our spirits are not created. Now unlike Christ we were not born with eternal life, so we don't remember our prior life, but our spirits have always been.

"Why be resurrected with all our body parts if we'll never need to use them again, since there probably won't be a need to go to the bathroom in heaven or if procreation of spirit children is just taking existing intelligences and forming spirits?" Wo.... I never said we won't use our body parts again. I really don't want all my same body parts back... JS said when He saw Jesus, He looked just like the Father. Apparently a further change took place when He ascended to the Father. I don't really know what a "spiritual body" is like, but I don't believe my next body will be just like this one...indeed I hope not. However, I do believe that we are here to learn to control our physical passions...partly because we will have those in the resurrection. Whether we will have to use the bathroom, I really don't know. I kinda hope not, but then that would eliminate the joy of eating perhaps. Growin

I proffer the Father is the Father of spirits in the word... not in some physical way. He didn't bring our spirits into existence up in His world through some kind of physical procreative process. He is the Father of spirits in the same way that Jesus will become our Eternal Father per Isaiah 9:6. He is not going to physically birth us, except as He did on the tree. He is our brother who is going to inherit us in and adopt us as Elohim because we followed Him.

The Father did not have Jesus through any physical means. Jesus is His Son by covenant, and was begotten by the oath of the Father per scripture when He said "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." See Hebrews. As the Son of the Father, He holds an "office" or calling. It has nothing to do with physical procreation anymore than the formation of Eve/the Church from Adam's rib.

Well, hopefully I have made myself clear. Thanks for your questions. If you have any more, I will try to make myself clearer.

Then God is not our Father as spirits..I am having a hard time with that.  What is the point if spirits are already there?  Why marriage..why all of it..?? Growing up in the LDS church, I had always thought that eternal marriage meant that exalted you were to create your spirit children.  Just so confusing and it changes the way I would feel about exaltation.  So the spirits come from matter??  Does God form the matter into spirits..like where do we really come from?  I realize that because this concept is new to me, that I could be misunderstanding.