Avatar4321 Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Why is the scriptures can show us the events that lead to apostasy and our leaders can warn us and yet people ignore all those warnings and end up in apostasy exactly as they were warned not to?It's mind boggling sometimes.
carbon dioxide Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Why is the scriptures can show us the events that lead to apostasy and our leaders can warn us and yet people ignore all those warnings and end up in apostasy exactly as they were warned not to?It's mind boggling sometimes.History repeats itself. People fail to learn the lessons of history and they fall into the same trap. The only thing that changes in time is technology but people are basically the same and fall for the same traps from Satan the since the world began. Edited November 10, 2015 by carbon dioxide 2
Bobbieaware Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Why is the scriptures can show us the events that lead to apostasy and our leaders can warn us and yet people ignore all those warnings and end up in apostasy exactly as they were warned not to?It's mind boggling sometimes.In most cases it's because those who go astray never really had a testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel in the first place. Fortunately for them, when their weak testimonies and shallow understanding of the Gospel's principles cause them to leave the Church, when faced by real opposition, they are not sinning against the greater light and for this reason they won"t become sons of perdition. Edited November 10, 2015 by Bobbieaware 1
carbon dioxide Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) In most cases it's because those who go astray never really had a testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel in the first place. Fortunately for them, when their weak testimonies and shallow understanding of the Gospel's principles cause them to leave the Church, when faced by real opposition, they are not sinning against the greater light and for this reason they won"t become sons of perdition.No, in many cases they do have a testimony. The tree of life story in the Book of Mormon says that. There are those in the church that hold to the iron rod and partake of the fruit. These people had strong testimonies. But then they hear the mockery from those in the great and spacious building and they become ashamed. They rather be with the world than with Christ. Choosing to be trendy,, they depart and some wander to strange paths and some join the mockers in the great and spacious building. The good news is eventually those in the great and spacious building all fall and when they fall, we will all marvel at it and their mockery ceases and are numbered among those of the past. Those who turn from the gospel to support gay families will have short time of pleasure and joy. But in the end, they must fall just as those in Book of Mormon times fell and are forgotten. Edited November 10, 2015 by carbon dioxide
Avatar4321 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Read this and thought it an interesting warning:“A friend … wished to know whether … we considered an honest difference of opinion between a member of the Church and the authorities of the Church apostasy. … We replied that we had not stated that an honest difference of opinion between a member of the Church and the authorities constituted apostasy; for we could conceive of a man honestly differing in opinion from the authorities of the Church and yet not be an apostate; but we could not conceive of a man publishing those differences of opinion, and seeking by arguments, sophistry and special pleading to enforce them upon the people to produce division and strife, and to place the acts and counsels of the authorities of the Church, if possible, in a wrong light, and not be an apostate, for such conduct was apostasy as we understood the term. We further said that while a man might honestly differ in opinion from the authorities through a want of understanding, he had to be exceedingly careful how he acted in relation to such differences, or the adversary would take advantage of him and he would soon become imbued with the spirit of apostasy, and be found fighting against God and the authority which He had placed here to govern His Church.” (Deseret News Weekly, 3 Nov. 1869, p. 457.) Edited November 10, 2015 by Avatar4321
Meadowchik Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) No, in many cases they do have a testimony. The tree of life story in the Book of Mormon says that. There are those in the church that hold to the iron rod and partake of the fruit. These people had strong testimonies. But then they hear the mockery from those in the great and spacious building and they become ashamed. They rather be with the world than with Christ. Choosing to be trendy,, they depart and some wander to strange paths and some join the mockers in the great and spacious building. The good news is eventually those in the great and spacious building all fall and when they fall, we will all marvel at it and their mockery ceases and are numbered among those of the past. Those who turn from the gospel to support gay families will have short time of pleasure and joy. But in the end, they must fall just as those in Book of Mormon times fell and are forgotten.I'm not willing to declare anyone a lost cause, however. Hope is always an option, because of Jesus Christ. It is not easy figuring our how to hope for those who've rejected the gospel, and for those with GLBT family and close friends, they feel that they are genuinely incapable of following the Gospel as prescribed. This must be incredibly hard for them. From what I've seen, it is.My feeling is we must pray for them, and try to help them when the opportunity arises.Edited (after Deborah's response) to clarify:To be clear, I was trying to say that some who identify as LGBT genuinely feel as if they are incapable of leading the life prescribed by the gospel. In an area of life that can be so all-encompassing, that can be terribly hard. Edited November 11, 2015 by Meadowchik 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Why is the scriptures can show us the events that lead to apostasy and our leaders can warn us and yet people ignore all those warnings. Where I live, cigarettes are sold in plain packets covered with images of mouth cancer, tar-filled lungs, etc. in addition to warning labels. I still see people queue up to buy them. Edited November 10, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan 1
Bobbieaware Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 No, in many cases they do have a testimony. The tree of life story in the Book of Mormon says that. There are those in the church that hold to the iron rod and partake of the fruit. These people had strong testimonies. But then they hear the mockery from those in the great and spacious building and they become ashamed. They rather be with the world than with Christ. Choosing to be trendy,, they depart and some wander to strange paths and some join the mockers in the great and spacious building. The good news is eventually those in the great and spacious building all fall and when they fall, we will all marvel at it and their mockery ceases and are numbered among those of the past. Those who turn from the gospel to support gay families will have short time of pleasure and joy. But in the end, they must fall just as those in Book of Mormon times fell and are forgotten.I anticipated objections such as yours before entering my post, but I entered it without any qualifiers because I believe what I said is basically true. Over the years, virtually every member I have known who has left the Church had only a superficial knowledge of the Restored Gospel and they really didn't KNOW by the power of the Holy Ghost -- as per Moroni's challenge --that the Gospel is true. A genuine testimony of the Gospel can endure "refiner's fire episodes," such as the mockery issuing forth from the widows of the great and spacious building, without withering and dying under assault from the forces of the adversary. The mere fact that most who leave the Church will not become sons of perdition is ample evidence that they didn't really KNOW the Gospel is true. Just look at those on this board who are teetering on the edge of leaving because of the recent policy change: almost all of these have been the complainers and ark-steadiers who have been speaking out against the Church, it's doctrine and its leaders for years.
FormerLDS Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 I anticipated objections such as yours before entering my post, but I entered it without any qualifiers because I believe what I said is basically true. Over the years, virtually every member I have known who has left the Church had only a superficial knowledge of the Restored Gospel and they really didn't KNOW by the power of the Holy Ghost -- as per Moroni's challenge --that the Gospel is true. A genuine testimony of the Gospel can endure "refiner's fire episodes," such as the mockery issuing forth from the widows of the great and spacious building, without withering and dying under assault from the forces of the adversary. The mere fact that most who leave the Church will not become sons of perdition is ample evidence that they didn't really KNOW the Gospel is true. Just look at those on this board who are teetering on the edge of leaving because of the recent policy change: almost all of these have been the complainers and ark-steadiers who have been speaking out against the Church, it's doctrine and its leaders for years. I was a member of good standing for many years. My family and generations prior were (and many still are) active members. To doubters, I testify to this day regarding the vivid memory I have of my testimony of the restored gospel. There may be some soulful authors out there, but no man has enough power or eloquence to generate a supernatural evidence manifested within the heart as one can receive by reading the Book of Mormon. But friends, supernatural as it may be, that doesn't mean that is of the true God. God would never ask anyone to trust something he has already labeled as "deceitful above all things", but the god of this world - who desires to deceive as many as he can - most certainly would and clearly does! The point is, there are many many who have received a sincere testimony, but leave the LDS congregation and (become apostate) because of logical, sensible, clear disagreement with what the Bible plainly says. I remember taking the missionaries on splits once (long time ago), that we met this little old woman who adamantly told us that the Bible completely disagreed with LDS theology on every single point, and anywhere we thought it agreed we had either been taught incorrectly (LDS theology), and we misunderstood what the Bible was saying. I am an apostate solely because I have chosen to believe the words of Jesus Christ within the Bible and am convinced by scripture alone that anyone can have eternal life today. I have NOT ignored the cardinal teachings of the Church; I have confronted those teachings and made the logical, prayerful decision that I was deceived by Satan. I am not bitter, and I have a loving and hopeful attitude toward my friends and family members who are members.
Avatar4321 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 So the Holy Spirit is "deceitful above all things"? 1
DJBrown Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Why is the scriptures can show us the events that lead to apostasy and our leaders can warn us and yet people ignore all those warnings and end up in apostasy exactly as they were warned not to?It's mind boggling sometimes. This has been my thought for a few years now. If one is familiar with scripture and the words of prophets, he or she would pretty much expect for these very events to produce the uproar that we are seeing. How many times have we heard that "the day will come when you will not be able to stand on borrowed light?" I have heard that too many times to count. But everybody who becomes estranged from those scriptures and those leaders feel that their perspective and opinions and feelings are unique. Not to be insensitive, but I think those are the same feelings and perspective that have existed since the world began when people fall away from prophets. There truly is nothing new under the sun when it comes to human nature. If we back up and look at all this, who has changed- the world or the church? It could not be more clear that it is the world that has changed and that the church has simply maintained the same position on morality, etc. It is so interesting to see people say that they feel that the church has abandoned them. I want to say- What are you thinking. The church has had the very same position, ultimately, on homosexual behavior all along. And it is the sexual mores of the world that have "evolved" very rapidly. I am extremely impressed with the effectiveness of the adversary in blinding so many people. Look at the enormous change is society in so short a time and how violent the reaction against people who simply want to maintain what was considered the obvious traditional family only a few years ago. It feels like a biblical or epic time we live in. We are seeing obvious societal phenomena that is so clearly evident over and over in the Book of Mormon. Edited November 10, 2015 by DJBrown 3
Popular Post Mars Posted November 10, 2015 Popular Post Posted November 10, 2015 i don't think it's ever appropriate to comment on the strength of another person's testimony in the context of proffering reasons for why they left. the warnings about shallow ground, stony ground, or any other scriptural reference to the need of constant spiritual nourishment are for us to safeguard our own testimonies, not use to reason out why someone *else* is still around or not. God tends to like us to look after our own beams and motes and let other people go. 8
SeekingUnderstanding Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) So the Holy Spirit is "deceitful above all things"?The same spirit that tells me the Church is good tells me that Same Sex Marriage is good. When I have shared this with my orthodox friends, I get admonished that I am listening to the wrong spirit. I have also seen a lot of that on these message boards. Here is a recent example: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66292-latter-day-saints-rejecting-gods-prophet-on-the-earth/ Satan deceives people into believing his lies while convincing them that they are listening to the Holy Ghost. People are deceived because they do not know they are listening to Satan. Scriptures show us that Satan can even deceive people into believing someone is Christ. In Matthew 24:5, Christ said, “For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” Edited November 10, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding 1
stephenpurdy Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 The point is, there are many many who have received a sincere testimony, but leave the LDS congregation and (become apostate) because of logical, sensible, clear disagreement with what the Bible plainly says. It never is as simple as believing "what the Bible plainly says". Interpretations of the text are extremely variable. Just take a look at this thread ... for example: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65453-lds-view-of-godhead-trinity/ -stephen
Sanpitch Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Why is the scriptures can show us the events that lead to apostasy and our leaders can warn us and yet people ignore all those warnings and end up in apostasy exactly as they were warned not to?It's mind boggling sometimes. In other words: Why do people not believe as I do and think as I do. I happen to know that I am right. It's mind boggling. 2
filovirus Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 The same spirit that tells me the Church is good tells me that Same Sex Marriage is good. When I have shared this with my orthodox friends, I get admonished that I am listening to the wrong spirit. I have also seen a lot of that on these message boards. Here is a recent example:http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66292-latter-day-saints-rejecting-gods-prophet-on-the-earth/I believe the word of God comes to each one of us individually in three ways. Personal revelation. The living prophets. The scriptures.When those three align we will have the surest way of knowing it comes from God. When two are at odds, except for rare exceptions, usually one of the two is wrong.If you truly believe the Holy Ghost testified to you about the sanctity of same sex marriage, live your life according to how God sees fit for you. Just remember that you are using only one method to get the word of God.Ultimately we will answer for our own actions and be held accountable to the consequences, be they good or bad. 1
KevinG Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Been there done that. [thunks head] I could have had exaltation!
Gray Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 In other words: Why do people not believe as I do and think as I do. I happen to know that I am right. It's mind boggling. Is there anyone that doesn't apply to?
The Nehor Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 i don't think it's ever appropriate to comment on the strength of another person's testimony in the context of proffering reasons for why they left. the warnings about shallow ground, stony ground, or any other scriptural reference to the need of constant spiritual nourishment are for us to safeguard our own testimonies, not use to reason out why someone *else* is still around or not. God tends to like us to look after our own beams and motes and let other people go.If they just went I would but instead but some can't shut up about it so why do they expect silence from us? 3
Ahab Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Why is the scriptures can show us the events that lead to apostasy and our leaders can warn us and yet people ignore all those warnings and end up in apostasy exactly as they were warned not to?It's mind boggling sometimes.Not mind boggling at all, considering how many false ways there are to interpret/understand what the scriptures really mean.The day I joined the true Church my own father thought I was falling away into apostasy because he was and still is convinced that the church I was already in was the true Church of Christ. Most people don't usually leave what they think is the true church of Christ so they think they're advancing even when they are falling. But then again they could be joining what really is the true church of Jesus Christ. 1
Popular Post Deborah Posted November 10, 2015 Popular Post Posted November 10, 2015 and for those with GLBT family and close friends, they feel that they are genuinely incapable of following the Gospel as prescribed. As a parent of a gay child I have no difficulty supporting the church while loving my child and keeping a close relationship with her. We just don't discuss the issues as she knows where I stand. With this current hullabaloo however, she came out with a strong statement on FB chiding her friends for caring since they aren't part of the church anyway. Sadly her feelings about the church came out as well, as she considers it bigoted and hateful. I was surprised at that because many times she makes comments about people in the church that are very positive and when I was in the hospital she kept my home teachers updated and had long conversations with them. It wasn't easy when I first found out about her lifestyle, especially when I got a call from my sister telling me that my daughter was on MTV announcing she was gay. That was several years ago. We both live our lives parallel to each other but doing a lot of things together as well. For as many ways as we are different we also have many things in common and laugh a lot together. We love to go out to eat and we like pretty much the same movies. I love her so much and I know that it will probably not be in this life that she returns to God but I know that he is in charge and will watch out for her and bring her back to him as part of the covenant she was born in. No parent expects when they hold that innocent beautiful baby that they or their child would face such challenges. But after the first mourning period you come to realize she is the same person you loved and that she has her agency and what makes me happy in this life is not what makes her happy. 12
Mars Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 If they just went I would but instead but some can't shut up about it so why do they expect silence from us? then yell at the ones who can't shut up. if someone says you're just an idiotic simpleton who is following along as a morg drone or some bulldink then yeah, pile on. if you feel the need to generalize about people who have left and how weak they are, then you're probably best served keeping those comments to yourself. 1
The Nehor Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 then yell at the ones who can't shut up. if someone says you're just an idiotic simpleton who is following along as a morg drone or some bulldink then yeah, pile on. if you feel the need to generalize about people who have left and how weak they are, then you're probably best served keeping those comments to yourself.I generally do just think it in my head.
Mars Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 I generally do just think it in my head. oh, well, that's no sin.
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