Falling Away

[KevinG]

Bibidolatry.

 

Edited November 12, 2015 by KevinG

[FormerLDS]

So again- why in heaven's name would anyone accept the Bible blindly as you have ??

 

It makes no sense!!

 

The point is, I accept the plain reading of Bible as truth - with no confimational feeling - just as unsuspecting investigators accept that "God's" test for truth is a feeling in the heart.

 

How does that not make sense?   

[Mars]

Here's how I know Christ died for ME:

 

"8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

 

Where in James 1:5 do you get anything even close to Moroni's promise?

 

"5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

 

Furthermore, and perhaps even more troubling, how does one KNOW Moroni's promise is truth?  [i.e. prior to believing it]

 

how do you know paul was telling the truth?

 

some guy wrote a letter about 1900 years ago and said "this dude Jesus was totally legit" and you believe it.  why?

Edited November 12, 2015 by Mars

[Mars]

The point is, I accept the plain reading of Bible as truth - with no confimational feeling - just as unsuspecting investigators accept that "God's" test for truth is a feeling in the heart.

 

How does that not make sense?   

 

why?

 

on what grounds do you accept it as truth?  you just plain do?

[FormerLDS]

Why pretend to ask a question if you're just going to provide the answer yourself?

 

So here's a real question for you: How does one "know" that the Bible is the sole yardstick against which truth is to be tested?

 

How does one "know" that the Bible is the sole yardstick against which truth is to be tested?

 

You hear and choose to believe or not believe.

 

Consider belief as a choice in Acts 8:

 

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

[KevinG]

why?

 

on what grounds do you accept it as truth?  you just plain do?

 

Because people turning into pillars of salt, the bling being healed with mud, and a guy rising from the dead are just so logical and obvious truth.  Darn it.

[KevinG]

How does one "know" that the Bible is the sole yardstick against which truth is to be tested?

 

You hear and choose to believe or not believe.

 

Consider belief as a choice in Acts 8:

 

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Did you just really quote "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." in order to refute the false claim that Mormons only make faith claims with feelings of their heart?

 

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

[FormerLDS]

how do you know paul was telling the truth?

 

some guy wrote a letter about 1900 years ago and said "this dude Jesus was totally legit" and you believe it.  why?

 

Ultimately, belief is a choice you make.  I don't believe the writings of Paul were his own words any more than I believe the Book of Mormon contains Joseph Smith's words.

 

It was given supernaturally.

[mfbukowski]

God represents our ideal of moral values.

Yes he exists, yes he is an exalted Human. That is the key to the church and to any humanistic view of God.

Morality has survival value in a peaceful society of humans. The best expression of these values are found in the Golden Rule. We all want to be treated fairly, as others want to be treated. It is simply a fact of life, perfectly demonstrable scientifically if we want to, that people prefer to be left alone and leave others alone to live their lives in peace and freedom in a family relationship.

Why do we agree about that? Because it is a requirement for civilization. Human babies are born helpless and need care for what- 12 to 15 years at least? The age of puberty itself tells us that.

We cannot reproduce before the "fall from innocence". We are all Adam and Eve in the garden until them. After that we wander looking for truth and find it in our own families. We want to raise them in peace and so band together into cultures all of which demand "morality".

For the LDS, God is one of us, raised to being the Ideal Human with Ideal Human values. You can believe that literally- as I do- and see Him as a real Being, or you can see that as an ideal created by humans. I have reasons for believing it literally, because I know I have felt Him "speaking" to my spirit and telling me these things are true, but I cannot express that to you in language.

So yes, God is moral becaue He is our Ideal of moral behavior.

Who would possibly believe in an immoral god?? The fact that God is moral is self-evident in our definition of God as the Ideal Human.

And if you believe in the King Folette Discourse you may believe that God is one of an infinite string of Gods, of Fathers of Sons going back into infinite eternities- far beyond our comprehension.

That's why I am LDS intellectually. It just makes sense.

If we seek to emulate the Ideal Human suddenly we actually have a moral principle which is universal and would even be acceptable to atheists. What principles those are can be found only in our hearts, in the golden rule. All accept those principles. One can believe that an ideal man created and revealed those principles, or that man created the Ideal.

Can you see that both views are the same?

That is the universal appeal of LDS theology and what could come of it

[Russell C McGregor]

How does one "know" that the Bible is the sole yardstick against which truth is to be tested?

 

You hear and choose to believe or not believe.

 

Consider belief as a choice in Acts 8:

 

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

So you appeal to the Bible as supporting your claims about the Bible.

 

This is known as "circular argument."

 

Thank you for demonstrating Novak's Law.

[FormerLDS]

So you appeal to the Bible as supporting your claims about the Bible.

 

This is known as "circular argument."

 

Thank you for demonstrating Novak's Law.

 

Kinda like believing Moroni's promise is God's test for truth because Moroni said it was?

Edited November 12, 2015 by FormerLDS

[KevinG]

Kinda like believing Moroni's promise is God's test for truth because Moroni said it was?

 

No.  Believing Moroni's promise because I tested it, and GOD answered my prayers.

 

Let us refresh our memories on what Moroni actually promised.  Not that if you pray to Moroni you will have your prayers answered by Moroni.

 

Moroni 10:3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

 

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know thetruth of all things.

 

and what are "these things" Moroni exhorted them and wishes them to pray about:

 

Faith in Christ

Baptism

Repentance

Salvation through the Atonement of Christ

Knowing Good from Evil

etc.

 

The whole book is there to read.  

[Teancum]

Why is the scriptures can show us the events that lead to apostasy and our leaders can warn us and yet people ignore all those warnings and end up in apostasy exactly as they were warned not to?

It's mind boggling sometimes.

 

There are about a hundred responses to this but likely not worth discussing with you.

[FormerLDS]

No.  Believing Moroni's promise because I tested it, and GOD answered my prayers.

 

Let us refresh our memories on what Moroni actually promised.  Not that if you pray to Moroni you will have your prayers answered by Moroni.

 

Moroni 10:3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

 

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know thetruth of all things.

 

and what are "these things" Moroni exhorted them and wishes them to pray about:

 

Faith in Christ

Baptism

Repentance

Salvation through the Atonement of Christ

Knowing Good from Evil

etc.

 

The whole book is there to read.  

 

When you read this for the first time:

 

"...if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

 

Other than just choosing to believe, how did you know that was indeed God's test for "truth"?

[KevinG]

There are about a hundred responses to this but likely not worth discussing with you.

 

Not worth discussing but worth chiming in with your $.02

 

Thanks for sharing.

[KevinG]

When you read this for the first time:

 

"...if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

 

Other than just choosing to believe, how did you know that was indeed God's test for "truth"?

 

It wasn't in isolation.  I had a very specific question in mind after a long time of pondering.  Was Jesus Christ the literal Son of God, and my Savior?

 

I prayed using that pattern.  Not expecting truth to emerge from the method, but expecting God Himself to answer me.

 

The answer came in an epiphany. The Holy Spirit communicated directly with me and I knew with mind, heart, and soul...  God lives!  His Son Jesus Christ lives!  He is my Savior and Redeemer!

 

It is a testimony that I cannot deny.

 

The admonition of Moroni led me to ask of God.  And God answered with direct revelation. 

[Avatar4321]

In the infamous words of Col. Sherman T. Potter: "Horse Hockey"

Truth is ONLY what is plainly written in the Word of God. Nowhere in the Bible does God equate a feeling in the heart with a test of truth.

That's why Mononi's promise is so self defeating; how are unsuspecting investigators to determine if Mornoni's promise is truth? Was there a test of truth to determine if that test of truth is true? Hogwash.

God's Word is His test of truth.

I'm sure one of my friends here has already pointed it out, but you are the first one to mention feelings. We mentioned the Holy Ghost which Christ promises will testify of truth.

In fact, Moroni's promise doesn't mention feelings either. He mentions the Holy Ghost.

Now why would you not seek the Holy Spirit for the confirmation of truth when His job is to testify to it. Why would you deny the Holy Ghost when the new testament shows how important He is and explicitly states that denying Him is the one sin that the atonement will not cover?

In deed, why would God encourage anyone not to pray about something? Do you have so little faith that you think God would decieve you if you sincerely seek His instruction on a matter?

How do you claim to believe the Bible and deny revelation from the Holy Ghost when the Spirit is the one who inspired it to be written? How do you have a relationship with a God who cannot speak to you?

Edited November 13, 2015 by Avatar4321

[Avatar4321]

No, the heart is deceitful above all things.  

 

Why would God ask you to trust in feelings from something he's already labeled as "deceitful above all things?"

 

If I'm an apostate, it's because I chose to believe what God's word plainly says.

And we are talking about the Holy Ghost.

[Avatar4321]

How does one "know" Moroni's promise is actually God's test for truth? 

 

You hear and choose to believe.  That simple.  No spooky confirmational feelings.

By asking Him. He reveals it.

[Avatar4321]

Kevin it bothers me to think there are those out there who simply cannot accept the fact there are those who make the logical, sincere decision to leave the CJCLDS based upon scripture alone.  I didn't fall into corruption, read "anti" literature, hang around the bad crowd, etc.  

 

The plain reading of the Bible DOES NOT support LDS theology.  Period.  if that makes me an "apostate" then I'm ok siding with what Jesus Christ plainly says in His word.

I disagree. A plain reading of the Bible overwhelmingly supports the Church of Jesus Christ. It teaches a need for authority. It teaches revelation from the Holy Ghost. It teaches the doctrine of Christ, keys of the kingdom, offices of the priesthood, gifts of the Spirit, ect.

The irony is the Pharisee would make the same argument for rejecting Christ. I'm sure they were more than happy to side "with" Moses and what he plainly said over this upstart Jesus.

[KevinG]

Saying that Latter-day Saints are merely believing in a feeling is just setting up a strawman to knock down. It is an old anti-mormon canard and it is far from the reality of what a witness from the Holy Spirit is.

[Avatar4321]

Kinda like believing Moroni's promise is God's test for truth because Moroni said it was?

It was Jesus Christ who said "ask and Ye shall receive". Why would asking about whether the Book of Mormon is true or not be the exception to that promise?

[Dgal]

Free agency.

People have the right to apostasize if they so choose. Even Jesus let people turn and walk away from him. He didn't go chasing after them, either.

It was Satan who said he would force people to follow Heavenly Father's plan, not Jehovah.

[mfbukowski]

it felt like splitting hairs. i eventually gave up.

if i had a dollar for every time i tried to get an Evangelical Christian to see that they do with the Bible what they accuse me of incorrectly doing with the Book of Mormon, i wouldn't have any more student loans.

not that I think the Evangelical Christian is off his rocker or anything. if you accept that Jesus really was who the Bible said He was, it necessarily comes from something other than the Bible. it comes from God. just own it. and give me space to do the same with the Book of Mormon.

or not.

It's all their interpretation colored by creedal nonsense, literally. Substance dualism, yuck. Linguistic nonsense.

Former does not understand circular arguments, and I do not have time to engage him now

[mfbukowski]

The point is, I accept the plain reading of Bible as truth - with no confimational feeling - just as unsuspecting investigators accept that "God's" test for truth is a feeling in the heart.

How does that not make sense?

Your conformational feeling is to accept the "plain reading of the Bible" whatever that means, including talking donkeys. It's all your desired interpretation dictated by your "gut". No difference