Avatar4321 Posted November 18, 2015 Author Posted November 18, 2015 Being an apostate member (by choice), I not longer choose to accept "conformational" feelings as God's test for truth. There is a huge difference. Name calling seems to always be the last resort and is indicative of theological dilemma.You may reject the witness of the Holy Ghost, we have no reason to.
Avatar4321 Posted November 18, 2015 Author Posted November 18, 2015 Of course Jesus didn't lie, but he didn't say the evidence one would receive as a "confirmation" of truth was a burning within the bosom. God will show you the truth according to what is plainly written using scripture to explain and prove itself.He said if we asked, we would receive, why then would asking about the Book of Mormon be an exception if He said we would receive answers to our prayers when we ask?There is no limit in what Jesus promised. Why do you feel so determined to put a limit on what we can ask and receive?
Avatar4321 Posted November 18, 2015 Author Posted November 18, 2015 I think I have picked up on your claim you think Christianity is primitive, but there is nothing primitive about God entering His creation and dying on the cross for the sins of the world, for your sin separates you from God which verdict is Hell. I find atheism primitive and Mormons are supernatural atheists.So the Book of Mormon preaches The atonement of Christ and you find that atheistic?How does anyone reason with that? 1
Avatar4321 Posted November 18, 2015 Author Posted November 18, 2015 God provides a Bible we can trust in so all 66 books comprise His word.And He provides us the gift of the Holy Ghost so we can live off every word that proceeds from His mouth.
Robert F. Smith Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 .............................................................. How is Mormonism any different than atheism for you teach the same? They believe in nature pre-existing and co-eternal.There is a vast difference between the theoretical and abstract god which you preach, and the actual biblical God of history. We Mormons deal with concrete reality, you deal with proof-texts -- carefully selected to deny the living God, but to affirm empty traditions of theologians. Atheists would find your claim that there is a confluence between their belief in science and nature and the Mormon religion both odd and remarkable. However, it is very perceptive of you to notice that confluence or convergence, because you are quite correct that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the God of the philosophers, but is God our true Father, and loves us as such. He is a God of passions and a glorified body. He has set the example followed by his son Jesus Christ, and He has marked the way for all of us to obtain salvation. Yes, if atheists, humanists, universalists, and followers of non-biblical dogma (such as yourself) were to examine these notions closely and to humbly ask God to witness whether they be true or false, there would be more than just one double-take on the face of such inquirers -- which is why the LDS faith grows and the empty faiths are largely on the wane. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 I think I have picked up on your claim you think Christianity is primitive, but there is nothing primitive about God entering His creation and dying on the cross for the sins of the world, for your sin separates you from God which verdict is Hell. I find atheism primitive and Mormons are supernatural atheists.The phrase and concept of "primitive Christianity" does not assert that Christianity is primitive, but rather it refers to the original Church founded by Jesus Christ and tended by his apostles and the Holy Spirit -- before it was driven into apostasy by men who sought the praise of the world, instead of the praise of God. The phrase "primitive Christianity" was developed by some very thoughtful Christians long before the call of the Prophet Joseph Smith jr and the Restoration of that ancient Church of Jesus Christ. It was a constant theme of restorationist Christians who had tired of the phony forms of christianity which had developed in Alexandria, Constantinople, and Rome. These were the restorationist wishes and dreams of the Puritans, and of Alexander Campbell and the Churches of Christ, and others, down to our present day. One should be scandalized, however, by the continuing expansion of denominational Christianity, as it flails about, trying in vain to find the true path back to the Jesus of history. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 God provides a Bible we can trust in so all 66 books comprise His word.Yes, God has provided Scripture for us, but it cannot be read coherently by those who bring to the text the crippling concepts of Greek philosophy. If, on the other hand, one reads the text by the same Spirit which gave it, then one can make sense of it, and understand it.
SmileyMcGee Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Yes, God has provided Scripture for us, but it cannot be read coherently by those who bring to the text the crippling concepts of Greek philosophy. If, on the other hand, one reads the text by the same Spirit which gave it, then one can make sense of it, and understand it.Hi Robert, While it would be nice to read and understand the Bible as the words were meant to be interpreted, I don't know that you have provided a sufficient, practical means for doing so. While claiming to read "by the same Spirit which gave it," is a nice idea, its appears to be, in practical terms, impossible, for how would you know that the your view is reflective of the Spirit in which the Bible was written. Your view view may be identical to the intended interpretation, but how would it be possible to know that? These assertions are put forth again and again on this board by those with differing beliefs (whether faithful lds, ex-lds, evangelical, Catholic, atheist), but none have been able to provide a sufficient explanation as to why their view is justified. Note that I'm not criticizing your holding of beliefs or claiming to have felt something, but am criticizing your claim to have a method for acquiring objective knowledge (the proper interpretation of the Bible) without sufficiently justifying that method in practical terms. Edited November 18, 2015 by SmileyMcGee
FormerLDS Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Hello Former, In the past I have heard several Evangelicals, at different times, denigrate this mysterious "burning in the bosom" that Mormons talk about. I am not surprised to see it here. Jesus promised the Second Comforter to guide us. Try a google search for the role of the Second Comforter just for a quick overview of what some Christians think of the Holy Spirit's role. Regardless, Jesus promised he would be our guide. I always enjoyed the story of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. In Luke 24 it reads: 32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? What is evident is that as the resurrected Jesus was talking with these two disciples about scripture their hearts burned within them. I believe that same burning happens today when reading scripture, when scripture is opened to us. In fact, when all truth is opened to us our hearts burn within us. You have left the Church of Jesus Christ and have found a new home. Scripture, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is just a good story and is little different from other good stories. However, with the presence of the Holy Spirit the truth of all things is opened to those who follow the Savior. I believe that Holy Spirit has a role to play in our lives. Jesus said he would and I believe him. Based upon your statement above, that "God will show you the truth according to what is plainly written using scripture to explain and prove itself.", I get the impression that you think that scripture, in and of itself, will teach all who read it. Is this an accurate understanding of your position? Do you think there is a role for the Holy Spirit in the lives of Jesus' disciples? If so, what would that be? In Luke 24, specifically what opened their eyes to the truth? The role of the Holy Spirit is to bring the Word of God which you have read or heard back to our remembrance. No spooky confirmational feelings here. Consider John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
cursor Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 The general suggestion here seems to be that those who have fallen away (or are about to fall away) are somehow the less invested ... the least informed. I think that's not at all necessarily the case. Instead, consider the possibility that those who remain on board might have invested the least. I think that this is true with all religions. There are sheep, and then there are lions. There are thoughtful, and then there are the numb. Because one stays, or selectively leaves is no doubt very personal — I think more personal for the folk that disassociate themselves from their religious upbringing. Don't ignorantly dismiss the significance, the thought, the selective hardship. They don't deserve absolute dismissal, but rather conversation, acceptance, social interface, and understanding. For those who feel that departed members should "shut up", I simply suggest that many have lifelong expectations brewing over a lifetime, yet probably feel a growing, dramatic void. That hardly deserves a "shut up" attitude. Adopting a 'them and us' attitude hardly positively contributes to the issue of those falling from the faith. 1
Zakuska Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 God provides a Bible we can trust in so all 66 books comprise His word.God only has 66 books in his whole Library? What happend to the last 2000 years?! 1
Avatar4321 Posted November 18, 2015 Author Posted November 18, 2015 In Luke 24, specifically what opened their eyes to the truth? The role of the Holy Spirit is to bring the Word of God which you have read or heard back to our remembrance. No spooky confirmational feelings here. Consider John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”I can't help but notice you ignored the clause prior to the one you bolded. He will teach us all things.The Holy Ghost teaches us the Bible is true. He teaches us the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph smith is a prophet. And most importantly He teaches us that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He can teach us so much more id we let Him. All things has no limit on what we can learn from the Spirit.Why do you try to pretend that an all powerful God cannot teach us all things by the Spirit. 1
Zakuska Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) If this passage supports the LDS assertion, why did this not open their eyes to the truth? Specifically what did, and perhaps ironically, why does that not open your eyes to the truth?Oh but the Spirit of God did "open their eyes" to the truth and "burn in their hearts" as they read scripture with Christ it did "mine" too. Why didn't it Yours? Luke 24 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.2 32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? So the question you should really be asking yourself is why haven't your eyes been opened? And why are you advocating against listing to the spirit of God speaking to your heart? It would appear that you are fighting on the wrong side of the battle, sir. You do know that the real Christians[TM]© of the 1st century also use this same verse and speak of the" burning in the bossom" to know Gods truth? Ever read Justin Marytr's conversion story to Christianity? You'd almost think the guy was a Mormon missionary. You can read his conversion story to Christianity here while he dialogs with Trypho the Jew and recounts his conversion to Christianity. He speaks about the burning in the bossom too. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwizisqUh5vJAhUXmIgKHWiYA3E&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.earlychristianwritings.com%2Ftext%2Fjustinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html&usg=AFQjCNG7G4rJKNTo3GCwUgD3Ceb-sqcjYQ&sig2=q0-RPig_up7ZqdPqhb5u9Q Edited November 18, 2015 by Zakuska 1
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